A warning to others...

[Robbo]

8 hours ago, matty40s said:

A warning to others indeed...

Ok, paint job complete, last work to do on the boat was "get the shower pump working because it always blocks and leaks".

The offending pump is apparently one of the bilge pump in a sandwich box type so a Whale Gulper is the obvious choice. We also noticed that the boat has a paper sign taped across the bathroom sink saying DO NOT USE.

Eventually the shower pump is located under the floor in the adjoining kitchen, in a 2 shelf cupboard, under the hob, and the cupboard holds 20 years of accumulated pots/pans and other kitchen detritus. A lovely small false bottom to the cupboard has been cut, however, it is still almost impossible for anyone other than a banned midget wrestling team to squeeze into the U-shaped space and attack the pump. The pump has lovingly had a hole cut in the floorboards to its exact dimensions, therefore pipes need to be removed before it can be pried out.

So, the top shelf has to be taken out, after removing all the plates/jugs/serving bowls etc - all a lovely cabbage leaf style(I kid you not). The shelf is screwed, glued and nailed - some force has to be used. 

The lunchbox can now be attacked - but water can be seen around the piping, lots of water. Jubilee clips loosened, pipes worked off and wires detached, the pump housing is lifted out revealing almost 2" water - 200 plus litres taken out before the work continues. It is also found that the bathroom sink also runs into this lunchbox.....

Off to by a Y connector - try searching screwfix using their search engine - we ended up with a garden shed base and a staple gun - so off to Midland Chandlers instead. The pipes have been installed with NO play at all, concrete slabs prevent moving them to allow easier fitting. Gulper eventually fitted and now we need a switch in the bathroom - obviously a pull cord - nicely wired into the original lunch box power supply rather than running new cables. Then the fuse blew. First the Gulper fuse, then the 12v panel fuse, Then another fuse. Tested the Gulper with a 12V battery, works ok. So into the back of the 12V panel, where I discover that everything has been wired correctly except for the power for the lunchbox - where red goes to neutral busbar and black to the switch - which the Gulper doesnt like. Swap them over, test, then put everything back together again.

So this has been a far more complex job than the owners thought necessary, they were in today and saw what we were doing and the amount of water in the bilge, we will be cutting an access hatch at the rear - although now  the pump has been changed - there shouldn't be a problem any more. 

So yes, jobs can take a life of their own, had the owners not been present, they would have had a call at the end of the day to explain what had taken place - not before as you would be calling them every two hours with your new findings...

However those items you listed are half expected for anyone that has done work on a boat before so shouldn’t come as a surprise.  

 

Waste pump that is automatic and is now leaking - expect lunchbox type and to be low down in the bilges and awkward to get to.  Also if the person replacing the pump sees or hears it working it’s obvious if it’s a bilge pump type or gulper type.

 

Multiple feeds to said lunchbox type - common.

 

Finding water in a bilge because a pump has been leaking - well duh.

 

Replacing with a completely different type of pump with a higher amp rating and now not automatic, complete rewire is expected and wasn’t part of the initial remit.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Robbo

[cereal tiller]

5 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

So what is your point?

 

Maybe Lady G meant 'Diddley Squat'?...that makes more of a Point.

[LadyG]

6 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

So what is your point?

 

the point us that there is no such thing as an estimated quote.

15 hours ago, LadyG said:

"the cost was £200 below the estimated quote to me"

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by LadyG

[Jennifer McM]

9 hours ago, matty40s said:

A warning to others indeed...

Ok, paint job complete, last work to do on the boat was "get the shower pump working because it always blocks and leaks".

The offending pump is apparently one of the bilge pump in a sandwich box type so a Whale Gulper is the obvious choice. We also noticed that the boat has a paper sign taped across the bathroom sink saying DO NOT USE.

Eventually the shower pump is located under the floor in the adjoining kitchen, in a 2 shelf cupboard, under the hob, and the cupboard holds 20 years of accumulated pots/pans and other kitchen detritus. A lovely small false bottom to the cupboard has been cut, however, it is still almost impossible for anyone other than a banned midget wrestling team to squeeze into the U-shaped space and attack the pump. The pump has lovingly had a hole cut in the floorboards to its exact dimensions, therefore pipes need to be removed before it can be pried out.

So, the top shelf has to be taken out, after removing all the plates/jugs/serving bowls etc - all a lovely cabbage leaf style(I kid you not). The shelf is screwed, glued and nailed - some force has to be used. 

The lunchbox can now be attacked - but water can be seen around the piping, lots of water. Jubilee clips loosened, pipes worked off and wires detached, the pump housing is lifted out revealing almost 2" water - 200 plus litres taken out before the work continues. It is also found that the bathroom sink also runs into this lunchbox.....

Off to by a Y connector - try searching screwfix using their search engine - we ended up with a garden shed base and a staple gun - so off to Midland Chandlers instead. The pipes have been installed with NO play at all, concrete slabs prevent moving them to allow easier fitting. Gulper eventually fitted and now we need a switch in the bathroom - obviously a pull cord - nicely wired into the original lunch box power supply rather than running new cables. Then the fuse blew. First the Gulper fuse, then the 12v panel fuse, Then another fuse. Tested the Gulper with a 12V battery, works ok. So into the back of the 12V panel, where I discover that everything has been wired correctly except for the power for the lunchbox - where red goes to neutral busbar and black to the switch - which the Gulper doesnt like. Swap them over, test, then put everything back together again.

So this has been a far more complex job than the owners thought necessary, they were in today and saw what we were doing and the amount of water in the bilge, we will be cutting an access hatch at the rear - although now  the pump has been changed - there shouldn't be a problem any more. 

So yes, jobs can take a life of their own, had the owners not been present, they would have had a call at the end of the day to explain what had taken place - not before as you would be calling them every two hours with your new findings...

We're both sides of the fence, you as a professional, me as a consumer. You wouldn't expect your customer to give you an open cheque, and I wouldn't expect you to be out of pocket on a job. We've just had work done on our boat, and was quoted £100, the bill turned out to be £280. We were on the boat while the work was carried out, and it was obvious their quote was wrong as the day progressed. It all basically comes down to trust surely.

[LadyG]

Yes, trust plus common sense. I have used local garage for a succession of old work vans, I know that he assesses the cost of a job versus the value of the vehicle, so last MOT was £600, rather than the norm of £250. HOWEVER, he did not charge for the last work done as, quote "you have spent enough on this vehicle". The [electrical] problem is not fixable, so I have to scrap the thing or sell it on to some unsuspecting buyer. When its going its fine, but it frazzles batteries like a Duracell Bunny on speed.

I think it sounds like the guy who  looked at the job had little or no concept of the work involved, and took his estimate from the OP's assessment. 

Edited September 19, 2018 by LadyG

[roland elsdon]

On the last boat we had to change the fridge.. standard side replaced like for like. 2 hrs. Nope 2 days. Who would have thought in a corridor kitchen the distance between the work surfaces would be less than the depth of a fridge.custom kitchen no ikea. Then the wires were found to be suitable for loudspeakers cos the owner used to be in a marina. Then we had to move a dishwasher..

a casual estimate would never have seen that..

[Phil.]

8 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

On the last boat we had to change the fridge.. standard side replaced like for like. 2 hrs. Nope 2 days. Who would have thought in a corridor kitchen the distance between the work surfaces would be less than the depth of a fridge.custom kitchen no ikea. Then the wires were found to be suitable for loudspeakers cos the owner used to be in a marina. Then we had to move a dishwasher..

a casual estimate would never have seen that..

Agreed, but a simple call to the owner, at the point it becomes apparent, that the job is going to exceed the estimate by a wide margin would be expected.

[bizzard]

Boy Scouts would have trundled their hand cart round and done it for 5p ''Bob 'a' Job''.

[Bee]

OK, I freely admit I belong in the stone age and that I bore people by starting many stories with 'back in my day' but back in my day stuff on boats was fixable by owners, cars were fixable (usually) by owners and we accepted the limitations imposed by choosing to live on boats and understood that welcoming the sophisticated stuff that was dangled in front of us by the growing boat industry removed some of the fun and a lot of the independence of that way of life. Washing machines, showers, hot water and all that stuff were novelties only found on a few boats and the rest of us just smelt slightly musty. In a nutshell, if you have a load of stuff you can't fix then you are always at risk of big bills and that is just a fact of life. To prove what I mean about fixing stuff  yourself I will take this computer apart when I've finished my coffee and spray insecticide all over it to kill any bugs and viruses, that'll save some money. Take that PC World.

[bizzard]

When I was a nipper everyone smelt of stew, in their houses, on the bus, in the street,, in the shops, simply everywhere, But I still like a decent stew with dumplings, odd that.

[Athy]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

When I was a nipper everyone smelt of stew, in their houses, on the bus, in the street,, in the shops, simply everywhere, But I still like a decent stew with dumplings, odd that.

Don't forget the accompanying smell of cabbage which lingered in people's houses for days and extra days.

[MtB]

I wonder too if the estimate was from the OP saying perhaps 'how much to install two washing machine taps please?", but acceptance was something like "great, go ahead and fit my washing machine please!" 

 

Fitting the washing machine is a LOT more work than installing the water supplies. The waste connection needs arranging, the electrical supply needs arranging, the space needs arranging, and not to be underestimated, the washing machine itself needs manhandling into the boat (two men, half n hour), into position and connecting up to the services now installed. 

[bizzard]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

Don't forget the accompanying smell of cabbage which lingered in people's houses for days and extra days.

Your tellin me. These smells I think were due to folk hanging their clothes to dry on those wooden dryer racks suspended above from the ceiling by rope tackles in the kitchen and the fumes from the stew pot on the stove bubbling away 24/7 contaminated them with these smells.

Edited September 19, 2018 by bizzard

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

Yes, trust plus common sense. I have used local garage for a succession of old work vans, I know that he assesses the cost of a job versus the value of the vehicle, so last MOT was £600, rather than the norm of £250. HOWEVER, he did not charge for the last work done as, quote "you have spent enough on this vehicle". The [electrical] problem is not fixable, so I have to scrap the thing or sell it on to some unsuspecting buyer. When its going its fine, but it frazzles batteries like a Duracell Bunny on speed.

I think it sounds like the guy who  looked at the job had little or no concept of the work involved, and took his estimate from the OP's assessment. 

I don’t think anyone has a problem with the fact that the job was different to the job estimated for. The problem is that, when the yard saw the job, or even started the job, they knew it was much bigger than expected. At that point, they should have called the owner, explained the situation, and provided a new estimate. If they couldn’t estimate how much it might cost, they should have explained that, and let the owner tell them how to proceed, or to stop and bill for the work so far.

[Nightwatch]

We have heard mixed comments about Rose in the last few days. I have always thought them to be a well respected company with it's well turned out boats. I have suggested to hire boaters to give them a try 'next time' etc.

We cruised up to Rose yesterday as we needed a pump out, not realising it a change over day. No go sadly. We winded and travelled back towards Rugby where we're going to be for next two weeks. Got a pumpout,yippee!, whilst there I mentioned this thread. The people I was chatting to also thought that communication should have been better, no doubt about that, but also added that it came to them as no surprise. I also mentioned about the aborted pumpout exercise. They said good, saved you £25. Twenty five pound, if true, for a pumpout. Bloomin' eck! 

 

So, what I am saying is, like I did when I had a car. Get the boatyard/garage to agree to call you if there's a change of circumstance involving more of your well earned. 

 

Im sure I'll still recommend Rose to others, but be aware, anywhere, that costs can change and you need to know asap.

 

Whilst at Rose they were down the engine 'ole fixing summat on another firms hire boat. I do wonder what the cross charge will be.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Nightwatch

[Jerra]

2 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

They said good, saved you £25. Twenty five pound for a pumpout. Bloomin' eck! 

Surely you didn't save £25?  You saved the difference between £25 and what you were charged.  Which was ...........

 

However I do agree £25 for a pumpout is more than Bloomin eck.

[Nightwatch]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

When I was a nipper everyone smelt of stew, in their houses, on the bus, in the street,, in the shops, simply everywhere, But I still like a decent stew with dumplings, odd that.

But in the late sixties you got the odd smell of curry!

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

Surely you didn't save £25?  You saved the difference between £25 and what you were charged.  Which was ...........

 

However I do agree £25 for a pumpout is more than Bloomin eck.

I got it for nothing as I was mucked about by a fellow trader.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't really. Paid ten pounds less than that.

[canalboat]

from the original post of the original poster:-

Rose Narrowboats said that it was going to be a bigger job than they thought"

 

And when they said that - what did you reply?

 

a washing machine on a narrowboat ??!!

[Nightwatch]

1 minute ago, canalboat said:

a washing machine on a narrowboat ??!!

One of the things I 'had'to install before moving onboard. Cost blood sweat and tears and about fifteen quidders.

[Alan de Enfield]

16 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

But in the late sixties you got the odd smell of curry!

I got it for nothing as I was mucked about by a fellow trader.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't really. Paid ten pounds less than that.

WHAT - they charged you £10 less than nothing ?

 

Pleas explain where they are - getting paid £10 to dump your Carp is a good little earner - particularly the amount produced by some on here !!!

Edited September 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

In the past I have quoted on jobs, I based the quote on experience and a good dose of looking at, or after plugging into diagnostics, Mostly we were on the button, if it over ran we would call the customer, if it was just say an hour on a long job the customer would get lucky! I havein the past fixed something in 10 minutes having quoted a couple of hours and new parts, again the customer got lucky and he paid the lower cost. This is all about trust and being recommended to others because you are trustworthy, This episode on the thread will cost Rose dearly as they lost trust when they didnt quote correctly and didnt bother to call the customer. I for one wouldnt use them because this thread has highlighted  an uncaring attitude.

[Athy]

I am quite surprised that our forum member from the company has not yet contributed to this thread. It would be good to read an explanation of the bill.

[mrsmelly]

5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I am quite surprised that our forum member from the company has not yet contributed to this thread. It would be good to read an explanation of the bill.

Have they been online? Do they like me take no notice of personal opinions online? 

[Naughty Cal]

6 hours ago, LadyG said:

the point us that there is no such thing as an estimated quote.

 

Indeed. Something is even and estimate or a quote.

 

Not sure why people struggle with the difference.

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I don’t think anyone has a problem with the fact that the job was different to the job estimated for. The problem is that, when the yard saw the job, or even started the job, they knew it was much bigger than expected. At that point, they should have called the owner, explained the situation, and provided a new estimate. If they couldn’t estimate how much it might cost, they should have explained that, and let the owner tell them how to proceed, or to stop and bill for the work so far.

Where do they stop?

 

Do they ring the customer every time something else crops up?

[Naughty Cal]

22 minutes ago, peterboat said:

In the past I have quoted on jobs, I based the quote on experience and a good dose of looking at, or after plugging into diagnostics, Mostly we were on the button, if it over ran we would call the customer, if it was just say an hour on a long job the customer would get lucky! I havein the past fixed something in 10 minutes having quoted a couple of hours and new parts, again the customer got lucky and he paid the lower cost. This is all about trust and being recommended to others because you are trustworthy, This episode on the thread will cost Rose dearly as they lost trust when they didnt quote correctly and didnt bother to call the customer. I for one wouldnt use them because this thread has highlighted  an uncaring attitude.

And that is why the garage where the OH works provide estimates, not quotes.