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A warning to others...


enandess

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The only issue here is that, once they realised their quote wouldn't cover the job, they didn't contact you to provide a more accurate quote. What if they'd found that the only way to fit the machine was by extending the boat by 2 feet, would they have done that and charged you thousands, sounds ridiculous, but something a bit less extreme could easily happen if they don't communicate.

I took an old BMW to have new pads, when I picked it up the garage had done a full brake rebuild, new brake hoses throughout etc, and the bill was much more than new pads. I complained to Trading Standards but they said tough, I asked what if they'd decided it needed a new engine and fitted one, Trading Standards said that without a written detail of agreed works the garage could do whatever they wanted and bill me for it, perfectly legally..

Casp'

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18 minutes ago, casper ghost said:

The only issue here is that, once they realised their quote wouldn't cover the job, they didn't contact you to provide a more accurate quote. What if they'd found that the only way to fit the machine was by extending the boat by 2 feet, would they have done that and charged you thousands, sounds ridiculous, but something a bit less extreme could easily happen if they don't communicate.

I took an old BMW to have new pads, when I picked it up the garage had done a full brake rebuild, new brake hoses throughout etc, and the bill was much more than new pads. I complained to Trading Standards but they said tough, I asked what if they'd decided it needed a new engine and fitted one, Trading Standards said that without a written detail of agreed works the garage could do whatever they wanted and bill me for it, perfectly legally..

Casp'

That's more or less what happened with my re-steeling. I got a quote of about 7 grand, which was fine, but when they actually cleaned it all off it need a lot more work than anyone could have guessed, and we found more as they went along.  They more or less said they wouldn't put it back in the water unless some extra work was done (complete new weed hatch and tiller tube) as the boat wouldn't be safe without it.

The flexible coupling was just a nightmare, which didn't surprise me at all, as we'd had real trouble getting it in and out before, though if the guy who rebuilt my gearbox had put it back properly in the first place, it would have been completely unnecessary for the yard to do it again.

That's the other lesson for the OP to remember - every time you get an engineer or a yard to do a job, you'll either have to finish it off yourself or hire another one to do it.  I don't think a single job has been done on mine which didn't need me to go over it again at least with a spanner to tighten the nuts up. Most have needed another engineer to finish it off, unless, like the self-draining deck which doesn't, you just have to put up with it.  Boats are essentially pits you chuck fifty pound notes into.

Worth it, though...

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On 17/09/2018 at 17:25, bizzard said:

Its really strange init that the final costs to the cutomers is never below an original quote.

I had a calorifier  fitted to my boat and the cost was £200 below the estimated price to me.

Edited by Laurie.Booth
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10 hours ago, enandess said:

Very true... I can only put my side as fairly as I can. More than happy for it to be put under the microscope... 

Did you get a detailed invoice stating labour and parts used and a full description of the work done?

Seems like a breakdown in communication somewhere.

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14 hours ago, enandess said:

I don't think I was blackening the reputation of anyone. The reason I posted in the 'new to boating' section rather than the 'maintenance' section was to highlight our experience as newbies in not getting what we expected due to not knowing what questions to ask. I do think I would point the finger at a lack of communication - as others have pointed out, to go from an estimate of £90 to a bill of over £500 without discussion seems to me a little short sighted. 

 

And to add... I haven't accused anyone of being a 'rip off merchant' - in fact in the earlier comments I made I did make this point. Perhaps you could point out where I have accused any boatyard of ripping me off. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with your post, and have had similar issues in the past but would suggest that not including the name of the boatyard in future will avoid any misinterpretation of your comments.

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14 minutes ago, BWM said:

I don't think there is anything wrong with your post, and have had similar issues in the past but would suggest that not including the name of the boatyard in future will avoid any misinterpretation of your comments.

 

I disagree. 

 

In this case people need to beware of a yard willing to estimate £90 and bill for £500 without telling the victim they are running so far over budget. I think this is unreasonable yard behaviour and naming the yard perfectly fair. Especially as the yard are aware of this thread and have not to put their side of the story, so far. 

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2 hours ago, Mike Hurley said:

Did you get a detailed invoice stating labour and parts used and a full description of the work done?

Seems like a breakdown in communication somewhere.

Not always easy to do.  I had a major engine rebuild a few years ago and part of the deal was that after it was done I would get a complete itemised list of what had been done.  Not only did I never get it after several increasingly annoyed prompts, but the guy refused to believe a diesel into oil leak was happening (or even possible on a Lister SR2) following the rebuild and do anything about it. Sometimes a breakdown in communication is what boatyards do best.

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I realise this is not strictly relevant to the OP's case, but this is how I get work done on our boats.

Perhaps I’ve been lucky in the boatyards I’ve used to carry out major work.

 

1. I first discuss in general terms the work that needs doing - e.g. an undercloth conversion, re-bottoming, rebuilding and refitting of the back cabin, a paint job etc.  At this point I’ll be given some idea of the timeframe.  Remember that the good boatyards can be booked up years in advance.

2. You can ask at this stage how long it will take to do the work.  As a rough guide I’d say major work is going to cost between three and four thousand pounds per month. (Perhaps more some months). Frankly, you are only going to be given a ball-park figure at this stage.  It is impossible to foresee all the work that will be required, especially on an old boat.  (Paint jobs seem to be much easier to get a fixed price for).

3. Agree how you are going to be invoiced and how you’ll pay.  I receive a detailed monthly itemised invoice which I pay immediately. I may be asked to pay in advance for large items - e.g. a consignment of steel.

If the costs are rising faster than you expect it may be possible to omit various jobs or find another way of doing them.

4. On major work I will visit the boat each week and I’ll be told the plans for the next bit of work.  This is where various options are discussed. I sometimes have a sketch of what I think would work. I maintain that weekly contact like this is essential to avoid misunderstandings.  I also realise that the yard will have had much more experience thna me in doing similar jobs and I’ll usually defer to their suggestions rather than push my own.  

5. I have never insisted or even asked for a written estimate or quotation.

6. I think it’s more important to build up a good relationship with the boatbuilder or engineer than to haggle over prices and be nit-picking over the work.  I expect a first class job, but then I’m prepared to pay for it.

 

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15 hours ago, casper ghost said:

The only issue here is that, once they realised their quote wouldn't cover the job, they didn't contact you to provide a more accurate quote. What if they'd found that the only way to fit the machine was by extending the boat by 2 feet, would they have done that and charged you thousands, sounds ridiculous, but something a bit less extreme could easily happen if they don't communicate.

I took an old BMW to have new pads, when I picked it up the garage had done a full brake rebuild, new brake hoses throughout etc, and the bill was much more than new pads. I complained to Trading Standards but they said tough, I asked what if they'd decided it needed a new engine and fitted one, Trading Standards said that without a written detail of agreed works the garage could do whatever they wanted and bill me for it, perfectly legally..

Casp'

That is interesting, as from experience of working in a garage, and a boatyard, it was always made clear to me that if you do work that the customer didn’t ask for, they didn’t have to pay. So always let the customer know when a job was going to become more complicated and therefore more expensive.

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15 hours ago, casper ghost said:

The only issue here is that, once they realised their quote wouldn't cover the job, they didn't contact you to provide a more accurate quote. What if they'd found that the only way to fit the machine was by extending the boat by 2 feet, would they have done that and charged you thousands, sounds ridiculous, but something a bit less extreme could easily happen if they don't communicate.

 

Completely agree with the above quoted text.

 

I would have refused to pay that exorbitant increase. I would have also stated I would take them to court over such an outrageous increase, without having contacting you first. Ridiculous, to say the least. An "estimate" doesn't go from 90 to over 500 without some sort of communication, they are at fault. 

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We've only dealt with Rose Narrowboats once. We wanted a round 45deg corner trim in ash for the back of the pullman, and we dropped into Roses when we were passing, and asked if they could make one for us. The forman came on board, measured the 'curve' and said it would be ready in 2 weeks as it would be a job they'd shoe horn in somewhere - we never asked for a quote.

 

True to their word, we got a phone call 2 weeks later to collect. The corner trim was perfect.... and all for the princely cost of £8! We thought it would be several times more than that.

 

Guess you win some and lose some.... such is boating 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

I had a calorifier  fitted to my boat and the cost was £200 below the estimated quote to me.

A quote is  a quote, is the price for the job.

An estimate is a guesstimate, legally means damn squit.

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46 minutes ago, LadyG said:

A quote is  a quote, is the price for the job.

An estimate is a guesstimate, legally means damn squit.

I don’t think anyone here is talking about the law... which is usually an ass anyway. We are talking about what is right... and what Roses appear to have done couldn’t be more wrong.

 

I would imagine the Roses boss is reading this and biting his tongue until he can find out what went on, and who did it, before responding in some way.

 

For all those who think a £90 estimate turning into a £500 job is OK without communication... at what point does it become not OK? What if the final bill had been £1000, or £5000?

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19 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

I don’t think anyone here is talking about the law... which is usually an ass anyway. We are talking about what is right... and what Roses appear to have done couldn’t be more wrong.

 

I would imagine the Roses boss is reading this and biting his tongue until he can find out what went on, and who did it, before responding in some way.

 

For all those who think a £90 estimate turning into a £500 job is OK without communication... at what point does it become not OK? What if the final bill had been £1000, or £5000?

Not OK once it becomes an arm and a leg, ouch!!!!

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3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

I don’t think anyone here is talking about the law... which is usually an ass anyway. We are talking about what is right... and what Roses appear to have done couldn’t be more wrong.

 

I would imagine the Roses boss is reading this and biting his tongue until he can find out what went on, and who did it, before responding in some way.

 

For all those who think a £90 estimate turning into a £500 job is OK without communication... at what point does it become not OK? What if the final bill had been £1000, or £5000?

At the hourly rate most yards charge, it really doesn't take much to go from £90 to £500 - about five hours work for two people probably. If they charge VAT, even less. 

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14 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

At the hourly rate most yards charge, it really doesn't take much to go from £90 to £500 - about five hours work for two people probably. If they charge VAT, even less. 

It does not really matter how quickly the price goes up. It would be bad enough to simply double the estimate without further discussion. To increase it times five is out of order, and I suspect would be difficult for the yard to pursue if payment was refused, as I suspect that amount of increase would be deemed unreasonable by a court.

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6 hours ago, Jennifer McM said:

We've only dealt with Rose Narrowboats once. We wanted a round 45deg corner trim in ash for the back of the pullman, and we dropped into Roses when we were passing, and asked if they could make one for us. The forman came on board, measured the 'curve' and said it would be ready in 2 weeks as it would be a job they'd shoe horn in somewhere - we never asked for a quote.

 

True to their word, we got a phone call 2 weeks later to collect. The corner trim was perfect.... and all for the princely cost of £8! We thought it would be several times more than that.

 

Guess you win some and lose some.... such is boating 

 

 

I respectfully disagree.  The possibility that the OP might get a better deal on the next occasion they place themselves at the mercy of a boatyard in no way excuses the contractor in question or anyone else for that matter.   Nor I suspect does it make the OP feel any better.  There's nothing peculiar about the boating world that somehow allows contractors to play fast and loose with their customers hard earned.   

 

 

 

  

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34 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I respectfully disagree.  The possibility that the OP might get a better deal on the next occasion they place themselves at the mercy of a boatyard in no way excuses the contractor in question or anyone else for that matter.   Nor I suspect does it make the OP feel any better.  There's nothing peculiar about the boating world that somehow allows contractors to play fast and loose with their customers hard earned.   

It's a lesson for us all; make sure you get a written quote, and explain if there's a problem, then they've to give you a call should the quote need altering. If anything goes wrong, at least you've got 'evidence'.

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9 hours ago, koukouvagia said:

I realise this is not strictly relevant to the OP's case, but this is how I get work done on our boats.

Perhaps I’ve been lucky in the boatyards I’ve used to carry out major work.

 

1. I first discuss in general terms the work that needs doing - e.g. an undercloth conversion, re-bottoming, rebuilding and refitting of the back cabin, a paint job etc.  At this point I’ll be given some idea of the timeframe.  Remember that the good boatyards can be booked up years in advance.

2. You can ask at this stage how long it will take to do the work.  As a rough guide I’d say major work is going to cost between three and four thousand pounds per month. (Perhaps more some months). Frankly, you are only going to be given a ball-park figure at this stage.  It is impossible to foresee all the work that will be required, especially on an old boat.  (Paint jobs seem to be much easier to get a fixed price for).

3. Agree how you are going to be invoiced and how you’ll pay.  I receive a detailed monthly itemised invoice which I pay immediately. I may be asked to pay in advance for large items - e.g. a consignment of steel.

If the costs are rising faster than you expect it may be possible to omit various jobs or find another way of doing them.

4. On major work I will visit the boat each week and I’ll be told the plans for the next bit of work.  This is where various options are discussed. I sometimes have a sketch of what I think would work. I maintain that weekly contact like this is essential to avoid misunderstandings.  I also realise that the yard will have had much more experience thna me in doing similar jobs and I’ll usually defer to their suggestions rather than push my own.  

5. I have never insisted or even asked for a written estimate or quotation.

6. I think it’s more important to build up a good relationship with the boatbuilder or engineer than to haggle over prices and be nit-picking over the work.  I expect a first class job, but then I’m prepared to pay for it.

 

My boat is currently in the care of arguably the leading narrow boat restorer in the U.K. and our method of doing business is not dissimilar to what you describe above (although my heavy workload is preventing me from visiting during extensive works this week). I am not looking to have this work completed on the cheap and I am not looking to have it completed in record time. Craftsmanship is time consuming and therefore costly, but this work will be done once and done well so this represents good value to me :captain:

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