Living aboard 30ft GRP cruiser?

[Tony1]

 

I'm one of the many people who are approaching retirement (early, but still 3 years away in my case), and who are considering spending at least a few years living on the inland waterways. In my case it would be as a continuous cruiser, mostly in the North and Midlands. 

 

It's become clear that there are many pitfalls and issues for the would-be liveaboard to consider, and from what I can see they have all been discussed heatedly and at some length on this forum: postal addresses, toilets, auxiliary transport, toilets, heating, toilets, blacking, toilets, engine maintenance, toilets. And toilets. 

 

I can only apologise if I'm repeating a recent question, but I haven't so far found a discussion on a question that I have been pondering, which is this:

What are the compromises that you have to make to live aboard on a 30ft-ish GRP cruiser (something like a Viking 32cc), when compared to living aboard a 50-60ft narrowboat? 

I'm talking specifically about the narrow beam cruisers that will travel everywhere (almost), not the 12ft-wide Broads cruisers. The wide beam cruisers are lovely things, to be sure- so much more comfortable and spacious, but at the moment I wonder if a 12ft-ish beam might restrict my cruising a bit too much...

 

The reason I'm even considering living with the compromises of a GRP cruiser instead of doing the decent, civilised thing a buying a 60ft narrowboat is that I'll probably be living on it alone, so space might be less of an issue than living with a partner.

In the unlikely event that I am able to convince someone of the female persuasion to get on board with the idea (i.e. the idea of me primarily, and canal living secondarily), I do realise that all GRP-based bets are effectively off. Things like hair dryers, washing machines, big inverters, and lots of luxurious electricity- in short, all of the essentials of a decent civilised life for a woman-  are simply not to be found on a 32ft cruiser (which I'm starting to get the feeling is about as comfortable as living in an upturned 747. After it's crashed into the side of a mountain.)  

 

But if, as is most likely, it is just me living aboard the good ship Plastic, I could accept a less than luxurious lifestyle.

Up to a point: in an ideal world I would want to avoid some of the domestic lifestyle compromises made by Grizzly Adams. But I'm struggling to get an idea of just where the compromises are, and how serious they are. 

 

I would be particularly interested in hearing the experiences of people who have actually lived aboard cruisers like this for a few months or more, or who have garnered the opinions of GRP boat owners. 

There are a few things that spring immediately to mind- the water tanks are vanishingly small. Viking, for example, proudly boast of the immense 50 litre water capacity of their canal flagship (which from researching these forums would probably last no longer than a shower and a cup of tea). 

Plastic boats last essentially forever (or at least from the 70s till now, which as far as my children are concerned is actually longer than forever. They never need blacking, and when you do haul them out its cheaper because they are shorter and lighter. Transporting them by road is significantly cheaper (e.g. to Scotland or Ireland), and the CC license (and insurance) is cheaper for shorter boats. So the running costs seem to be a fair bit lower.

 

But clearly so are the comfort levels. 

So they seem to be cheaper to buy and to run, but what, specifically, are the compromises compared to a narrowboat?  And just as importantly, are there workarounds that make life more comfortable? 

I have a feeling that 30 feet of GRP may be a step too far even for me- in terms of compromises- but I wanted to at least ask the question, and see whether people who live aboard these boats will be kind enough to share their experiences. 

 

 

[zenataomm]

39 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

I'm talking specifically about the narrow beam cruisers that will travel everywhere (almost), not the 12ft-wide Broads cruisers. The wide beam cruisers are lovely things, to be sure- so much more comfortable and spacious, but at the moment I wonder if a 12ft-ish beam might restrict my cruising a bit too much...

So, are you considering wide beam or not? You seem to contradict yourself there.

Are you aware that narrow beam craft are just under 7ft across because of the Midlands canals?

 

GRP boats have a shallow draft compared to steel boats.  They tend to float near the surface like a ping pong ball, so bob around a lot as you step on board or move around.  They also react more to passing boats.

Some describe them as susceptible to condensation, I think that's probably more due to them being built for good weather and holidays so may not have the insulation.  You will find some that have had a multi fuel stove fitted, but it usually looks like an ugly installation.  Gas heaters chuck out a lot of water and aren't cheap to run.

Many around that size have outboards, not ideal for living with as they are pretty useless at charging batteries and run on petrol which brings its own issues.

 

Usually having been made from white GRP they scratch easily on lock chambers and canalside furniture, dirt gets in the marks and looks ugly.  It takes a lot to keep one spick and span.  Rough hull condition on a narrow boat looks bad enough but on a white plastic cruiser it looks awful.

[Tony1]

Thanks Zenataomm- I'm still planning and the truth is with the best part of 3 years still to go my feelings about narrow beams could change, or I could find out something I really don't like, so it's still possible I could go wide beam.

But there seem to be so many lovely and quiet canals in the Midlands that I don't really see me changing on that.

I holidayed on a narrow boat on the Coventry and the Ashby, and it would be a real shame to not be able to cruise those areas.

I hadnt realised GRP was so demanding to keep clean and in good shape- that's sadly yet another negative tick, although at least not a very costly one, perhaps. 

I think I could live with the bobbing around bit, but as you say, a lot of them have petrol outboards, which come with a further details of issues to consider...

GRP was always going to be a long shot for me (even given the little I know about matters nautical), but being so cheap it seemed at least worth looking at...

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by Tony1

[Naughty Cal]

I think you will soon discover that having a wide beam boat in the north is not restrictive at all in practice.

 

Then you can start widening your search for the right boat as you will get much more choice of 30ft cruiser over 7ft wide.

[Tony1]

Thanks Cal, I have looked at the various canal network maps and thought long and hard about how restrictive the wide beam might be in reality (because wide beams do have an awful lot of 'space' appeal) and of course it's hard to know anything for sure until I get try it out for myself at the end of 2020. 

The other thing is that a 30-odd foot GRP widebeam might not be too expensive to get transported onto the southern part of the network, and thus increase the cruising areas.

I read somewhere that in theory there is an overland journey of less than 20 miles between the north and southern wide beam canal systems, at their nearest points. So you would think a couple of thousand might be enough for that? 

On the other hand I did love the narrow canals I tried in the Midlands, and that wider cruising range is also very appealing. 

I am starting to suspect that my options might lie between a 50-odd ft narrow boat and a 30-odd ft widebeam GRP cruiser. 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Tony1
Typo

[Alan de Enfield]

The cost of moving a boat is pretty much governed by the lift out / lift in costs, the 'road' part of the costs will not vary very much between a 20 mile journey and a 100 mile journey. A truck driver will be 'on the tacho' and will probably be unable to do a 2nd deliver so you will be paying for a full day irrespective of the distance / actual time taken.

 

There is a huge difference in 'volume' (overall space) between a 'fat boat' and a 'thin boat'.

Its not just width but the potential to go 'higher' as well.

the Northern canals and rivers were designed for big commercial boats so 'size' is not really much of an issue.

 

Look at the picture of a 32 foot GRP Cruiser NB alongside my 35 foot WB - you can see that the boat is 'huge' in comparison.

 

Internally we have a master cabin with ensuite shower room, ensuite basin / toilet , two wardrobes, two dressing tables and a 'island' Queen sized bed.

 

We have a saloon, a separate dining room, a separate kitchen, the 'family bathroom / toilet, then the forward cabin with 3 bunks.

 

If you are planning on the 'North' then a 'fatty' is the way to go - if you decide to go 'South' then £1000 gets you shifted. (£160 lift in at Newark)

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Philip]

I have a Norman 24 and whilst I only use it for leisure, a single person could probably live on it reasonably comfortably, but not luxuriously. In fact two people (if a couple that is!) could probably cope, again providing you're not expecting to live in luxury. In depends on the state of the boat; clean, heating (preferably two safe sources of it if you can), ideally a couple of domestic batteries, a reliable inboard diesel engine (and alternator for the batteries), a gas locker which can fit two cylinders, hot water, keep on top of leaks around the windows (make sure you clear the drainage channel holes out and apply tape or new seal if necessary to cover the gaps), allow spends for repairing the canopy once it inevitably wears and tears and also good wiring.

 

Not sure about other models, but the Norman 24 is well designed for extended trips or living on; two singles at the front which can be made into a double; a dinette to port which converts into a nice double; toilet compartment; wardrobe; starboard galley with sink, cooker unit, cupboards, space for small fridge and good worktop space; generous amount of storage and an excellent large cockpit space with comfy seating. You'll need to do your own washing of clothes and pots/pans, no microwave or dishwasher etc and a small water tank, but I did say it wouldn't be luxury! The plus side is they are excellent for cruising and can turn just about anywhere - but try and get one with an inboard engine (or the space to fit one) and also see if you can get a folding windscreen, or adjust it so it can fold down.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Philip

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, Tony1 said:

Thanks Cal, I have looked at the various canal network maps and thought long and hard about how restrictive the wide beam might be in reality (because wide beams do have an awful lot of 'space' appeal) and of course it's hard to know anything for sure until I get try it out for myself at the end of 2020. 

The other thing is that a 30-odd foot GRP widebeam might not be too expensive to get transported onto the southern part of the network, and thus increase the cruising areas.

I read somewhere that in theory there is an overland journey of less than 20 miles between the north and southern wide beam canal systems, at their nearest points. So you would think a couple of thousand might be enough for that? 

On the other hand I did love the narrow canals I tried in the Midlands, and that wider cruising range is also very appealing. 

I am starting to suspect that my options might lie between a 50-odd ft narrow boat and a 30-odd ft widebeam GRP cruiser. 

 

 

My twopenneth coming from someone who has lived aboard six narrow boats and two wide beams is the only reason to live on a narrowboat is the cruising range. The wide beam is immeasurably more comfortable in every way. There was for instance more useable comfortable accommodation on my steel fifty foot wide beam at only ten foot six width than my seventy foot narrowboat. At present I am moving a lot so it has to be narrow beam but if I decide to stay in one area again it will be the north on a wide beam. Boats sell instantly Andy are easily changed so it's never a problem.

Edited September 17, 2018 by mrsmelly

[Gareth E]

Just a thought: CRT allow you to use a tender for no extra charge. If water storage is an issue on a cruiser there's the option of dragging a small grp boat behind it, loaded with a few water containers. Could also maybe load it with coal etc.

[Tony1]

Thanks all for these very informative replies. 

The more I hear, the less positively I feel towards a 30ft narrow cruiser, so that at least is some progress in my thinking.

But unexpectedly, this has got me thinking about wide beam GRP cruisers again. 

It is a very personal thing, this balance of the need for space against a desire for a wider cruising range.

But hearing these ideas and opinions has helped me to better understand the real life issues I will have to face with each of the two boat options, and that really helps in making the right decision. 

 

[Naughty Cal]

We have had our cruiser for ten years now based in the East Midlands. We have not run out of cruising ground yet and there are still plenty of areas for us to explore that we have not yet seen.

[Tony1]

Cal, can I ask how you manage in terms of water supply? I'm guessing you don't liveaboard at the moment, but is the water tank size a nuisance at all? 

 

Also, I must apologise- I did not explain that for a few years after formal retirement I will probably be travelling to the Merseyside and Lancashire area every couple of weeks to do ad hoc work, and I can see that the Shropshire Union and T+M canals both have lots of lovely rural locations but are still within 90 mins drive of where I would need to be- and both are (I think) narrow canals.  

If I go wide beam, I will need to stay on the L+L, whereas if I'm narrow I can also use a few other canals within driving distance of my proposed 'ad hoc' work. 

So I'm starting to think narrowboat might be the best way, at least for the first few years- as you pointed out Mr Smelly, if the boat is half decent it will sell fairly easily anyway if I want to change things. 

 

 

[Athy]

We have a 45 foot narrowboat and we love it. But once a year we hire one of these pénichettes, and the difference in internal space is remarkable. They are 31' long by 10' wide. For route accessibility I'd go for a narrowboat, but for Lebensraum the more corpulent boat is the winner.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

We have a 45 foot narrowboat and we love it. But once a year we hire one of these pénichettes, and the difference in internal space is remarkable. They are 31' long by 10' wide.

 

Its remarkable how a boat one third shorter and one third wider is SO much bigger inside. Logic suggests they would be about the same but every foot of width you add above 7ft is worth about two sub-seven-foot feet. 

[Athy]

37 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Its remarkable how a boat one third shorter and one third wider is SO much bigger inside. Logic suggests they would be about the same but every foot of width you add above 7ft is worth about two sub-seven-foot feet. 

Yes, and as you'll see from the picture, the height, or air-draught if you will, is greater too, enabling the engine to be under the wheelhouse, which in turn enables the back bit (saloon/galley) to have generous headroom.  I occasionally mention to Mrs. Athy that I wouldn't mind having one of our own, to which she retorts "NO!" I think that's a maybe.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Athy

[Neil2]

4 hours ago, Athy said:

Yes, and as you'll see from the picture, the height, or air-draught if you will, is greater too, enabling the engine to be under the wheelhouse, which in turn enables the back bit (saloon/galley) to have generous headroom.  I occasionally mention to Mrs. Athy that I wouldn't mind having one of our own, to which she retorts "NO!" I think that's a maybe.

This is the very reason why I often think air draught, not beam, is the main limiting factor in narrowboat design.  

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

This is the very reason why I often think air draught, not beam, is the main limiting factor in narrowboat design.  

The two need to be considered together - a 10 foot airdraft on a 6 foot beam would be extremely unstable unless a huge keel was added.

 

Even rag and stick boats have a lead / iron keel to counterbalance the mast.

[Tony1]

Just wanted to say thanks again folks for giving your thoughts on this knotty problem. 

And those widebeams do look like great living spaces compared to the 7 footers.   

 

But stupidly, I hadn't really thought through the implications of my plan to take on ad hoc work post retirement, until I posted this question.

So I hadn't fleshed out any thoughts on the important question of which rural areas a widebeam could cruise and still remain a 2 hour drive from my work in Merseyside/Lancashire (and I only want to stay near towns for as long as it takes to get supplies, fuel, or whatever).

 

When I stopped to think about the work thing, I could see the benefits of having the T+M and Shropshire Union (among others) available to cruise with a narrowbeam, and I realised the drawback of being based mostly on the L+L if I had a widebeam. Dont get me wrong, there are some beautiful sections on the L+L (esp. around Skipton), but I feel it would be great to have more cruising options, because my 'operating radius' will not be that great.   

 

So given that the first 3-5 years of living aboard will be influenced by my need to stay within a shortish drive of Merseyside for work reasons, so I think I have to look first at narrowboats. 

Gareth's cunning idea of using a towed tender to carry a decent store of coal, diesel and water could be made to work, and would maximise the interior space of a 30ft cruiser.

But it seems awfully vulnerable to theft, and anyway I'm still not convinced for comfort reasons. To fit a solid fuel stove, a decent inboard diesel engine, and improve the general layout and the other domestic 'services' to a good 'liveable' level could cost anywhere between 10,000 to 15,000, and then the narrow GRP cruisers stop looking like such a cost effective liveaboard option.

 

I'll be giving up the ad hoc work within 3 to 5 years at most, in order to just do some proper cruising, and I think at that time I will look at a 35ft widebeam GRP cruiser, or maybe at 40-ish foot steel widebeam, if I'm finding the narrowboat a bit of a squeeze. What I dont see myself doing is trying to get a 60x12 foot boat around the canals- from what I've read here, it just looks like a bit too much hassle and stress for me personally. I just want to blend in and cruise around without causing any irritation or obstruction to other boaters. 

 

Proximity to any particular area wont matter once I've packed in even the part time work, so I can consider changing to a shortish widebeam for the space and comfort aspects, and still have a good choice of cruising areas. 

One of my more hare-brained future schemes will be to have my boat transported to the Irish waterways. They look absolutely stunning, and they appear to be significantly less populated than the English waterways seem to be, so for me they sound like a great place to spend a year or two cruising. But that's a different discussion entirely. 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Tony1
more typos

[bodysnatcher]

Hi Tony1,

If you are after a good GRP boat, look at the Highbridge 32. My wife and I bought one a year ago and love it. They are few and far between for sale and as such command a higher price, but they are well made and the original layout packs a lot in. We have an acceptable saloon seats 4 comfortably (converts to large double bed) doors to front well deck (seats 2). Then going back over we have to port, solid fuel stove, dinette, shower/toilet room, single bunk, steps to cruiser stern. from the saloon back on the starboard side is the 2 burner cooker with grill and oven, 8 feet of work bench with storage and fridge under, gas water heater, double wardrobe with shelves, single bunk. The cruiser stern is nice, the inboard diesel is under the seating. Forgot to say it has a 55 Gallon (250 litre) water tank as standard. So all in all, it will sleep 6 (you'd have to be very good friends) has a good size water tank, inboard diesel and solid fuel heating, and looks like a NORMAL narrow boat. We love it and plan to live on it in a year or two.

The only down side is it has and outdrive and you are seen to be a second class narrow boater as it PLASTIC

Hope this helps

Please sorry about any spelling mistakes ( I didn't stick in at school )

[Tony1]

Thanks Mr Snatcher, I do like the look of the Highbridge 32, and it does seem to have the key bases covered in terms of home comforts.

What I really like is that they seem to start at 15k or under. 

At the moment my budget looks like it could stretch to about 45 or 50k for a really good/suitable used boat, so I'm now hoping I can afford to buy something with a bit more living space than a 30-ish feet cruiser.

 I even briefly considered going mad and stretching to a brand new viking 32cc at £54k- until I saw the size of the water tank, and the cost of replacing the canvas cockpit covers every few years, and the cost of running a generator more often to do the battery charging job that wont be done by the outboard motor, and a few other things. 

You never know of course, and if my budget becomes tighter than I'm expecting, I certainly think the Highbridge would be a better liveaboard option than any other 30 foot narrow beam cruiser I've seen so far. 

But because I want to be able to moor in more rural locations for a week or two, I'm thinking I would need another 50 gallons over the standard tank, so there would to be storage space for that. 

 

 

 

[Naughty Cal]

23 hours ago, Tony1 said:

Cal, can I ask how you manage in terms of water supply? I'm guessing you don't liveaboard at the moment, but is the water tank size a nuisance at all? 

 

Also, I must apologise- I did not explain that for a few years after formal retirement I will probably be travelling to the Merseyside and Lancashire area every couple of weeks to do ad hoc work, and I can see that the Shropshire Union and T+M canals both have lots of lovely rural locations but are still within 90 mins drive of where I would need to be- and both are (I think) narrow canals.  

If I go wide beam, I will need to stay on the L+L, whereas if I'm narrow I can also use a few other canals within driving distance of my proposed 'ad hoc' work. 

So I'm starting to think narrowboat might be the best way, at least for the first few years- as you pointed out Mr Smelly, if the boat is half decent it will sell fairly easily anyway if I want to change things. 

 

 

Our water tank is a tad small but it has never really caused us any problems we just fill it up every few days.

 

22 hours ago, Athy said:

We have a 45 foot narrowboat and we love it. But once a year we hire one of these pénichettes, and the difference in internal space is remarkable. They are 31' long by 10' wide. For route accessibility I'd go for a narrowboat, but for Lebensraum the more corpulent boat is the winner.

I do like the quirky look of those.

[Naughty Cal]

13 hours ago, Tony1 said:

Thanks Mr Snatcher, I do like the look of the Highbridge 32, and it does seem to have the key bases covered in terms of home comforts.

What I really like is that they seem to start at 15k or under. 

At the moment my budget looks like it could stretch to about 45 or 50k for a really good/suitable used boat, so I'm now hoping I can afford to buy something with a bit more living space than a 30-ish feet cruiser.

 I even briefly considered going mad and stretching to a brand new viking 32cc at £54k- until I saw the size of the water tank, and the cost of replacing the canvas cockpit covers every few years, and the cost of running a generator more often to do the battery charging job that wont be done by the outboard motor, and a few other things. 

You never know of course, and if my budget becomes tighter than I'm expecting, I certainly think the Highbridge would be a better liveaboard option than any other 30 foot narrow beam cruiser I've seen so far. 

But because I want to be able to moor in more rural locations for a week or two, I'm thinking I would need another 50 gallons over the standard tank, so there would to be storage space for that. 

 

 

 

A good set of canvas covers well looked after will easily last ten years or more. So they are not that expensive.

 

You work around the water storage you have. It really doesn't become a problem until you get iced in. But then you tend to have plenty of notice that the weather is going to get much colder so you can plan your cruising during those times around being close to service points.

 

Even the biggest water tank won't keep you going if you end up iced in away from a tap. It will run out at some point.

[Athy]

20 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

 

 

I do like the quirky look of those.

The hull design is based on a scaled-down version of the French commercial barges (péniches) but of course they couldn't scale down the superstructure in proportion or there would have been very little space for any people! Hence the "quirky" look.

   It's called a Pénichette Classique 935. The Locaboat Holidays web site has a floor plan and virtual tour of one, just in case it may be of interest for one of your future overseas jaunts. We hire from Agen (South of Bordeaux) but they have several bases around France.

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

The hull design is based on a scaled-down version of the French commercial barges (péniches) but of course they couldn't scale down the superstructure in proportion or there would have been very little space for any people! Hence the "quirky" look.

   It's called a Pénichette Classique 935. The Locaboat Holidays web site has a floor plan and virtual tour of one, just in case it may be of interest for one of your future overseas jaunts. We hire from Agen (South of Bordeaux) but they have several bases around France.

We did look at them but we found that the layout of the river cruisers we are more accustomed too suited us better.

 

The Broom 29 (Capri) we are hiring in a couple of weeks is a tried and tested design as is the Haines (Cirus) which we are hiring at Easter.

[TheBiscuits]

13 hours ago, Tony1 said:

At the moment my budget looks like it could stretch to about 45 or 50k for a really good/suitable used boat, so I'm now hoping I can afford to buy something with a bit more living space than a 30-ish feet cruiser.

That's a reasonable budget for a secondhand narrowboat.  If you want to be able to use the narrow canals for a while, I'd recommend buying one and then looking to buy something else in the future when your needs change.

 

I'm not anti-GRP - I used to have one myself, but for practicality of living on a boat on a narrow canal a narrowboat takes some beating - it's a better shape for the canal than most cruisers!  The Highbridge as mentioned above is of course a GRP narrowboat but there are not many of them around, so that restricts your options.