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Cutting Back boiler - Calorifier pipes


mboat01

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Please help. Complete newbie who has just bought boat needing total refit (yeah mebby not so sensible - Im going to have to learn a lot along the way !!):

 

I'm going to remove my stove and (gravity) back-boiler. How do I disconnect from Calorifier - can I just drain the back-boiler-to-calorifier copper pipe circuit and cut then cut the pipes ?. If thats okay what do I do with the now not used circuit on the calorifier - do I leave it open and uncapped ?.

 

Really appreciate any help

pipe1.jpg

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It would be easier to undo the nuts where the pipes connect in to the calorifier to the left of your arrowed cut marks. Same effect, but less work and reversible. If the stove is coming out, then the calorifier will be fine holding water and being heated by an alternative means with these pipes disconnected. Open and uncapped is fine. If the stove is going to be lit with a backboiler and no cooling system connected and filled, then it risks distorting and damaging the back boiler.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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What js your plan for heating after the refit? A stove with backboiler and gravity circulation is about the simplest and cheapest to run way of heating a boat and getting hot water and central heating. Is the stove knackered? If so, then replace with a similar one unless you have good reason to do otherwise

  • Greenie 1
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Thanks so much for the reply. Its having the support of knowledgeable and helpful people on here thats given us the confidence to take this all on.

The existing stove is very kaput - cracked grate, crack in side plate, poor fitting rusted flue collar. 

 

We're going to go for just a stove on its own for primary heat. Prob Morso 1410. We're keeping the stove centrally located. Its a 50' boat. So should be heatable with 4-5kw stove.

Thinking its that it will work better as a stove with less thermal mass (water in radiators) to heat. Will use eco fan.

 

We're also thinking of having a secondary system when on hook-up of 2 x 600 watt electric oil-filled radiators. We've got x4 leisure batteries (400A), a newish (2014) victron 1600watt inverter and solar so 1-2hours of electric radiators in cold mornings should be fine (600/230 = 2.6 Amp draw for each radiator). Maybe these : https://www.adax-solaire.com/electric-heaters-c1/oil-filled-radiators-c6/alo-oil-filled-low-profile-electric-wall-mounted-radiator-p2

 

So, very trad and, a bit modern, is the approach ?

 

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Thanks. Didnt know that was possibility !. Should have worked it out - copper is expensive so they've prob used min thinkness sheet for calorifier walls. I'll have a go at the nuts but if stiff think I might chicken out and go back to plan A and hacksaw through nearby. A proper plumber would never do this I know. 

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44 minutes ago, Sassy Lass said:

Thanks so much for the reply. Its having the support of knowledgeable and helpful people on here thats given us the confidence to take this all on.

The existing stove is very kaput - cracked grate, crack in side plate, poor fitting rusted flue collar. 

 

We're going to go for just a stove on its own for primary heat. Prob Morso 1410. We're keeping the stove centrally located. Its a 50' boat. So should be heatable with 4-5kw stove.

Thinking its that it will work better as a stove with less thermal mass (water in radiators) to heat. Will use eco fan.

 

We're also thinking of having a secondary system when on hook-up of 2 x 600 watt electric oil-filled radiators. We've got x4 leisure batteries (400A), a newish (2014) victron 1600watt inverter and solar so 1-2hours of electric radiators in cold mornings should be fine (600/230 = 2.6 Amp draw for each radiator). Maybe these : https://www.adax-solaire.com/electric-heaters-c1/oil-filled-radiators-c6/alo-oil-filled-low-profiwle-electric-wall-mounted-radiator-p2

 

So, very trad and, a bit modern, is the approach ?

  

The draw on the batteries from the electric rads via the inverter will be much worse, 600W/12V, not 230V so 50A per radiator not 2.6A. i would not use them for heating away from shore power, relying on batteries alone. Aside from that your proposed set up is similar to mine. The only down side is that heating a cold calorifier will suck all the heat from the stove till it is up to temperature. Makes heating a cold boat after a winter weekend away say, a time consuming task. If on a shore line, then keep the electric rads and immwrsion heater ticking over low to prevent the boat getting too cold.

 

Jen

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Thanks Jen. Yes, the electric rads will be when moored with hook-up only. When on the cut just have to manage with the stove. Why do you say 12v  ?? - I was planning on running the rads on 230 ? - yes, there is a loss of around 1A for the inverter, but thats manageable. We dont have a washing machine, or telly, or any other major electric items. The lights will be 12v but low watt LED units. 

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51 minutes ago, Sassy Lass said:

We're also thinking of having a secondary system when on hook-up

 

Bear in mind hook ups are rare as hen's teeth on the cut. Or are you planning on renting a marina berth? In which case the cost of the leccy is likely to be prohibitive.

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1 minute ago, Sassy Lass said:

Thanks Jen. Yes, the electric rads will be when moored with hook-up only. When on the cut just have to manage with the stove. Why do you say 12v  ?? - I was planning on running the rads on 230 ? - yes, there is a loss of around 1A for the inverter, but thats manageable. We dont have a washing machine, or telly, or any other major electric items. The lights will be 12v but low watt LED units. 

Yes, on mains it will be 230V and a lower current and that will be fine. I was just showing why it would be a bad idea to run them from the batteries via the inverter, which isn't your plan, so that is OK.

 

Jen

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Thanks Jen. Yes, the electric rads will be when moored with hook-up only. When on the cut just have to manage with the stove. Why do you say 12v  ?? - I was planning on running the rads on 230 ? - yes, there is a loss of around 1A for the inverter, but thats manageable. We dont have a washing machine, or telly, or any other major electric items. The lights will be 12v but low watt LED units. 

 

We've got a mooring on the Macc Canal. Only 6A leccy !. LOL

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1 hour ago, Sassy Lass said:

Please help. Complete newbie who has just bought boat needing total refit (yeah mebby not so sensible - Im going to have to learn a lot along the way !!):

 

I'm going to remove my stove and (gravity) back-boiler. How do I disconnect from Calorifier - can I just drain the back-boiler-to-calorifier copper pipe circuit and cut then cut the pipes ?. If thats okay what do I do with the now not used circuit on the calorifier - do I leave it open and uncapped ?.

 

Really appreciate any help

pipe1.jpg

If you are just removing the stove there is no need to disconnect the pipes close to the calorifier at all. You could just cut them close to the boiler and leave the pipes in place. That way it will be easier to reconnect a new back boiler stove when you realise that is the best option.

  • Greenie 2
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15 minutes ago, Sassy Lass said:

Thanks Jen. Yes, the electric rads will be when moored with hook-up only. When on the cut just have to manage with the stove. Why do you say 12v  ?? - I was planning on running the rads on 230 ? - yes, there is a loss of around 1A for the inverter, but thats manageable. We dont have a washing machine, or telly, or any other major electric items. The lights will be 12v but low watt LED units. 

 

We've got a mooring on the Macc Canal. Only 6A leccy !. LOL

When on mains hook up the mains passes straight through the Victron unit. Aside from charging the batteries the victron does nothing, so no 1A draw on the batts. It only draws from the batts when away from the mains.

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I'd love to do that... but...as you can see from the picture there is horrible, rotten, mildly carpet glued to the walls below the gunwales. The ply under the calorifier is also rotten. So that has to go too. All of this will involve removing the stove calorifier pipes.

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I too would be reluctant to get rid of a working gravity system unless there was a real need, I've had a couple of boats where I've fitted gravity systems. You don't really notice the heat missing from the stove because its heating all that cold water, (does putting a kettle on a stove cool it down much?) anyway you don't lose the heat, it just goes somewhere else. I think its good for keeping heat and damp out of the ends of the boat, heat loves to rise but it won't go sideways. One of the most difficult things on a boat is keeping batteries charged and the easiest way to do that is to be very careful about using them, we have a cheapo fan heater that we only use if we tie somewhere with 240v, also if I trip over it it doesn't hurt, stubbing your toe on an oil filled rad doesn't half hurt

  • Greenie 2
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How do you intend to provide hot water when you are moored up once you have removed the back boiler?

 

I would suggest a diesel fired boiler such as as Webasto or Eberspacher. One of these will heat water in your calorifier  (provided it has 2 coils - one connected to the engine cooling circuit and one to the diesel boiler). It will also provide you with a secondary heat source if fitted with radiators. Handy if you have issues with the stove, or on those  chilly mornings and evenings in spring and autumn when it isn't worth lighting the stove for a short while.

  • Greenie 1
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Where does the black heater hose that's connected to a drain off valve go to? Is it a feed/vent pipe to fill/vent the radiator/stove system or a crude connection for a diesel boiler? In both cases needs a less restrictive tee.

 

I would keep the pipework and refit after as a gravity system is great. I have a gravity stove system and a webasto diesel boiler. I use the stove as main form of heating. The more ways to heat water the better.

I have 240 volt 1.1kw immersion on timer for mains landline.

Webasto 5kw boiler.

Back boiler stove.

Boat engine. 

 

James:cheers: 

Edited by canals are us?
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10 hours ago, Bee said:

I too would be reluctant to get rid of a working gravity system unless there was a real need, I've had a couple of boats where I've fitted gravity systems. You don't really notice the heat missing from the stove because its heating all that cold water, (does putting a kettle on a stove cool it down much?) anyway you don't lose the heat, it just goes somewhere else. I think its good for keeping heat and damp out of the ends of the boat, heat loves to rise but it won't go sideways. One of the most difficult things on a boat is keeping batteries charged and the easiest way to do that is to be very careful about using them, we have a cheapo fan heater that we only use if we tie somewhere with 240v, also if I trip over it it doesn't hurt, stubbing your toe on an oil filled rad doesn't half hurt

Thanks so much everyone. Consensus seems to be stongly in favour of back boilers..

6 hours ago, cuthound said:

How do you intend to provide hot water when you are moored up once you have removed the back boiler?

 

I would suggest a diesel fired boiler such as as Webasto or Eberspacher. One of these will heat water in your calorifier  (provided it has 2 coils - one connected to the engine cooling circuit and one to the diesel boiler). It will also provide you with a secondary heat source if fitted with radiators. Handy if you have issues with the stove, or on those  chilly mornings and evenings in spring and autumn when it isn't worth lighting the stove for a short while.

Plan for hot water is (1) engine + calorifier, (2) immersion element in calorifier (already fitted and working) for when on 230 line, (3) kettle on stove (!), (4) kettle on gas hob, (5) elect. travel kettle. (3) and (4) are obviously only for cups of tea amounts. 

 

Hope I dont jigger the nuts when try to remove as would be helpful to leave open option of using 2nd coil in calorifier in future if necessary for diesel boiler.

 

3 hours ago, canals are us? said:

Where does the black heater hose that's connected to a drain off valve go to? Is it a feed/vent pipe to fill/vent the radiator/stove system or a crude connection for a diesel boiler? In both cases needs a less restrictive tee.

 

I would keep the pipework and refit after as a gravity system is great. I have a gravity stove system and a webasto diesel boiler. I use the stove as main form of heating. The more ways to heat water the better.

I have 240 volt 1.1kw immersion on timer for mains landline.

Webasto 5kw boiler.

Back boiler stove.

Boat engine. 

 

James:cheers: 

I think black hose goes just to ugly yellowish vessel poorly mounted on a shelf (on LHS of pic 2) (?? pressure relief). Id better check pretty carefully it doesnt go anywhere else or do anything else before I cut anything :-0

 

Im torn between multiple redundancy heating approach and just keep it simple - stove for heat (plus maybe x1-2 elect. radiators), and hot water as above.

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The deed has been done !

All went smoothly ?

Nuts came off calorifier without difficulty too

 

That's the good news

Bad news is I m going to have to disconnect the whole calorifier to assess and deal with soggy ply floor and access rearmost point of cabin bilge....

IMG_20180918_200449.jpg

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