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What boat builder for manufacture of a custom designed shell?


Phil_B

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1 hour ago, twooh10 said:

May I ask the OP a question out of curiosity?

 

What makes you think that canal boating is for you?

 

I think you said you are new to this forum, but I’m not sure if we know what you experience of canals is (I may not have read all the posts, so forgive me if I’ve missed this).

 

Many people on canals are here precisely because they like escaping many of the trappings of the modern world and embrace not having to keep up with the times.

 

As far as boat building goes it may be worth a reminder that this is a pretty small community.

There are something in the region of 35,000 (??) boats registered on CRT’s waters and many of them were built in the last century.

The size of the market does not necessarily encourage large-scale ambition.

 

Innovation is also much hampered not only by the value and interest that many people place on these waterways’ history and tradition, but also by the dimensions and infrastructure of the narrow canals.

It is not merely the restrictive dimensions of a lock which dictate a narrowboats’ design, but also the curve of bridges, the depth and shape of channel, the need to maintain rope and person quick access to certain areas, to not have additions which may cause potential damage to infrastructure or person.

For these reasons many design features have their origins firmly rooted in the 19th century!

Also, not many people will keep one boat for their entire lifetime, they will want to sell at some point, and something out-of-the-ordinary is frequently hard to sell (think the house sellers neutral colours!)

Sea going boats, and even river designs have a far greater scope for variation.

 

I think your internet search for builders is a good start. Many of what would be thought of here as the “best” builders are indeed older and often do not have the fanciest websites – they do not need to. Also many of these people will have long waiting lists.

 

I think you may be looking to find someone younger and perhaps more recently established who is not so entrenched in traditional ways. Sorry, but I am not able to help with any names.

 

As has been said before, please do update the forum with your progress. I for one am much intrigued as to what your bespoke designs may be! Good luck.

Your not telling me anything I don't already know. This info can be gleen of the internet in an afternoon. I know what I am doing.

 

Sorry if we are not all the same but I don't really care. I'm quite happy to be different and others can remain with their nose out of joint :)

Edited by Phil_B
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Thing is, people turn up frequently here asking much the same questions as you have, and the result is usually the same. Boat builders are busy, their books are full. What they don't need are customers bringing jobs to them with 'features' that have problems or issues that they have already seen and solved years ago. So they are very wary of enthusiastic potential new owners with armfuls of schemes and ideas

 

What they will really want to do is sound out a potential client to see if they can work with them

 

Best bet is to go and talk to some boat builders and see if you get on. Then start discussing what you want from a boat, and listen to what they say. They have many years experience of boat design and building

 

And if what you want really is a shell with the windows where you want them, I can't see you having a problem

 

Richard

2 minutes ago, mark99 said:

200 years of considered evolution vrs one person's idea's. I know who I'd back even if that person was Einstein's mentor.

max-talmey-46a27ce8-f4b5-4558-aafe-ecf24

 

Max Talmey, Einstein's mentor

 

Richard

 

He was an ophthalmologist, perhaps he would know how to design a good looking boat

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I think the OP should start his own boat building company, hoover up all the pent up demand for quality boats and make himself a fortune given how easy it will be using CAD. 

I thought we were slowly moving towards the point where he tells us he has! ??

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I wonder reading your last post why you are even on the forum 2 points made by you 1, you know & don't need advice quote I can gleen it all in half a day from the internet 2, What ever you say my take on the subject is the way i'm going to go ,In that case why are you seeking advice if you know it all & your way is the only way you will consider going + your general attitude will get you well liked on the cut should you ever get afloat Advice is sometimes given that is not wanted but if you come to a forum seeking advice you might at least give consideration to the points made by others not call others that differ from your thinking as stone age numptys after all a goodly number of them have probably been building shells/boats longer than youv'e been on earth & they are still going strong & have long waiting lists so must be doing something right/appealing to a good number of potential buyers .I hope you can find someone to fulfill you dreams but I think your attitude will need modifying to get any where to realizing your aim

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59 minutes ago, RLWP said:

Thing is, people turn up frequently here asking much the same questions as you have, and the result is usually the same. Boat builders are busy, their books are full. What they don't need are customers bringing jobs to them with 'features' that have problems or issues that they have already seen and solved years ago. So they are very wary of enthusiastic potential new owners with armfuls of schemes and ideas

 

What they will really want to do is sound out a potential client to see if they can work with them

 

Best bet is to go and talk to some boat builders and see if you get on. Then start discussing what you want from a boat, and listen to what they say. They have many years experience of boat design and building

 

And if what you want really is a shell with the windows where you want them, I can't see you having a problem

 

Richard

max-talmey-46a27ce8-f4b5-4558-aafe-ecf24

 

Max Talmey, Einstein's mentor

 

Richard

 

He was an ophthalmologist, perhaps he would know how to design a good looking boat

Thanks Richard, yeah I'm getting the distinct impression that even uttering the word 'customisation' would put them in a tailspin and the price skyrocketing. 

 

I'm thinking I'm better off just stating it's the standard I'm after with a few additions. The additions are nothing real radical, there pretty straight forward really, basic design on external seating style, low floor level at bow, etc.

 

My only other thought is to get the boatyard to do the basic boat then get someone else to add the additions on after if it would be cheaper and easier that way do you think?

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Just now, Phil_B said:

Thanks Richard, yeah I'm getting the distinct impression that even uttering the word 'customisation' would put them in a tailspin and the price skyrocketing. 

 

I'm thinking I'm better off just stating it's the standard I'm after with a few additions. The additions are nothing real radical, there pretty straight forward really, basic design on external seating style, low floor level at bow, etc.

 

My only other thought is to get the boatyard to do the basic boat then get someone else to add the additions on after if it would be cheaper and easier that way do you think?

 

I'm not really the one to ask, I'm aware that what seems to be 'pretty straight forward really' often turns out to be far from it due to some aspect of boat design or building that isn't immediately obvious

 

Standard with additions is probably a good place to start a conversation with a boat builder

 

Richard

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2 hours ago, Phil_B said:

Your not telling me anything I don't already know. This info can be gleen of the internet in an afternoon. I know what I am doing.

 

Sorry if we are not all the same but I don't really care. I'm quite happy to be different and others can remain with their nose out of joint :)

So one person asks you, very politely, a few questions, and you answer with rudeness and insults. Do you really think that is the way to get an honest response from the informed members here?
Now how about answering those questions in the manner they were asked?

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1 hour ago, Phil_B said:

I'm thinking I'm better off just stating it's the standard I'm after with a few additions. The additions are nothing real radical, there pretty straight forward really, basic design on external seating style, low floor level at bow, etc.

A low floor level at the bow is not unique - unusual yes, unique no.

There are one or two builders that do it as standard (Reeves being one of them) what you need to remember is once the floor is below water level you need to get any rain water, wave over-topping, splashes etc out of the boat.

This is 'normally' done by piping a 'run off' from the bow floor, under the cabin floor to the rear bilges so it can be pumped out by the bilge pump.

It does make the boat more awkward to get into requiring an additional step down (we used a caravan step), but, once in it is a good usable space with side lockers making 'chairs' and a table on a Desmo leg in the centre.

 

On 'non-lowered' floor levels there are holes (called 'scuppers') in the side of the boat at floor level that allow any water to run out.

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also worth bearing in mind that the high floor in the bow is also usually high because the water tank is below it, if you lower that floor you need to find somewhere else for your water tank.

 

most boats have between 200 & 300 litres as a minimum size (imagine a tank 1 metre square and 20 to 30 cm high as the area needed for this)

Edited by Jess--
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1 hour ago, Graham Davis said:

So one person asks you, very politely, a few questions, and you answer with rudeness and insults. Do you really think that is the way to get an honest response from the informed members here?
Now how about answering those questions in the manner they were asked?

I think you're taking this all a little too seriously.

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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A low floor level at the bow is not unique - unusual yes, unique no.

There are one or two builders that do it as standard (Reeves being one of them) what you need to remember is once the floor is below water level you need to get any rain water, wave over-topping, splashes etc out of the boat.

This is 'normally' done by piping a 'run off' from the bow floor, under the cabin floor to the rear bilges so it can be pumped out by the bilge pump.

It does make the boat more awkward to get into requiring an additional step down (we used a caravan step), but, once in it is a good usable space with side lockers making 'chairs' and a table on a Desmo leg in the centre.

 

On 'non-lowered' floor levels there are holes (called 'scuppers') in the side of the boat at floor level that allow any water to run out.

Thanks Alan, that's handy info to know. Thought it would run out somewhere but wasn't sure where. Guessing the stern tending to be lower then it would make sense to pipe it in that direction.

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8 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

also worth bearing in mind that the high floor in the bow is also usually high because the water tank is below it, if you lower that floor you need to find somewhere else for your water tank.

 

most boats have between 200 & 300 litres as a minimum size (imagine a tank 1 metre square and 20 to 30 cm high as the area needed for this)

On my Reeves the water tank was the whole of the bow under a 'big opening hatch' (you could climb into the tank for blacking) in front of the cratch (about 600 litres capacity)

 

 

IMG_20140426_184530.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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7 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

also worth bearing in mind that the high floor in the bow is also usually high because the water tank is below it, if you lower that floor you need to find somewhere else for your water tank.

 

most boats have between 200 & 300 litres as a minimum size (imagine a tank 1 metre square and 20 to 30 cm high as the area needed for this)

Yeah, I knew the water tanks would have to go from there. It's a sacrifice I would prefer though. I think the only place left is under the bed. I will only use the central part to keep the boat well balanced. I will raise the bed level a little to allow a slightly larger tank and will be content to accept I won't be able to carry a log of water I think.

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10 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Thanks Alan, that's handy info to know. Thought it would run out somewhere but wasn't sure where. Guessing the stern tending to be lower then it would make sense to pipe it in that direction.

That is fine until the pipe(S) block. You then have the task of clearing them. Make no mistake, eventually the pipes will block and rust inside. If you can easily get at the front of the pipes the job can probably be done with a hose as long as the pipe is large enough bore for the hose. However if they are easy to get at then it will be the same for falling leaves and that means blockages. At one time probably the majority of boats were like this but not so many are nowadays and that is not because  builders just want to do it that way.

 

Another consideration is how fast the water will drain from the well deck in the event of taking a wake over the bow or getting too close to leaking lock gates. Scuppers on the higher well decks are usually at lest 2" x 3" in size, one each side. How large will the pipes have to be to get the water back through the boat at the same rate.

 

The need to keep water out of the well deck will also make it prudent to have a front board & cratch cover.

 

The last thing you need is an ope system where water is allowed to trickle back around the ballast, it causes internal condensation, damp, smells and rust.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Do you find it a 'stretch' to step down from the lockers to 'floor level' ?

 We use an IKEA BEKVÄM step stool.

 

IKEA BEKVÄM step stool Solid wood is a hardwearing natural material.
On the lockers we have a caravan plastic stool which like the steps we can swap from side to side. 
Single Caravan Step - Plastic
The plastic stool is secured to the locker lids using wingnut bolts through the holes in the stool feet and into counter sunk nuts.
 
  • FrameTNuts.jpg
 
Edited by Ray T
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2 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Yeah, I knew the water tanks would have to go from there. It's a sacrifice I would prefer though. I think the only place left is under the bed. I will only use the central part to keep the boat well balanced. I will raise the bed level a little to allow a slightly larger tank and will be content to accept I won't be able to carry a log of water I think.

It would be 'unusual' (a waste of space) to have a permanent bed.

It is 'the norm' for 30 foot boats to have a put-up bed.

 

With a 34 footer. Take off 9 feet for the bow, 6 feet+ for the stern and engine and you are left with 19 feet x 6 feet for the :

Bedroom,

Bathroom / Toilet

Kitchen 

Lounge / Saloon

 

A permanent bed is 7 foot length of 'space', a bathroom / shower 4 foot minimum, kitchen, 6 foot,  leaving 2 feet long x 6 feet wide for your lounge.

 

This was our 'old' 30 footer where the 'lounge and bedroom were all in one (the settee pulled out to make a double bed)

 

 

IMG_20130912_122235.jpg

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19 hours ago, dmr said:

I think you should put clear tolerances on your drawings and get a written signed contract from the builder agreeing that the boat will be built exactly to the drawing, no money  will be paid up front, and no money will be paid at all if there is any divergence from the drawings. You should also make it clear that you intend to take legal action if the job is not done to your satisfaction.

 

Let us know how you get on ?

 

....................Dave

 

18 hours ago, Phil_B said:

It's how it works in ever other industry I have come across.

 

And how do Tesco and Sainsbury's react when you take in your written specification with tolerances?

Or do they expect you to choose from what is on offer on the shelves?

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1 hour ago, Ray T said:

 We use an IKEA BEKVÄM step stool.

 

IKEA BEKVÄM step stool Solid wood is a hardwearing natural material.
On the lockers we have a caravan plastic stool which like the steps we can swap from side to side. 
Single Caravan Step - Plastic
The plastic stool is secured to the locker lids using wingnut bolts through the holes in the stool feet and into counter sunk nuts.
 
  • FrameTNuts.jpg
 

Thanks Ray, are the seats too high to use as a step?

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24 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Thanks Ray, are the seats too high to use as a step?

 

Yes - the storage lockers (sides of the boat) and not much lower than the table, (just enough to get your knees under) so imagine trying to step off a table onto the floor with a floor space of only around 2 feet x 3 feet to get a around in- it is very awkward - as you lean forward you hit the top of the cratch. You also regularly skin your shins.

 

Mark a 2x3 foot space on the floor and fasten a plank 5' 6" off the ground above it.

Now put a chair (seat around 18-20" high), stand on it and try and step down into the marked out 'square'.

"Steps" are typically 9"-12" in height so this is like stepping down a 'double height' step.

 

When exiting the boat, you needed a 'step' to be able to get up onto the locker lids, then it was still a big 'step' to get your leg up and over the side and onto a pontoon / bank side. Regularly skinned shins as you try and lean over to reach. The solution was to ; Step from the well onto a caravan step, step onto the locker top, step from the locker top onto the gunwhale (balance) and then step from the gunwhale onto the pontoon / bankside.

 

I wouldn't go out of my way to have one with a 'sunken-foredeck' again.

 

 

IMG_1528.JPG

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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24 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yes - the storage lockers (sides of the boat) and not much lower than the table, (just enough to get your knees under) so imagine trying to step off a table onto the floor with a floor space of anly around 2 feet x 3 feet to get a around in- it is very awkward - as you lean forward you hit the top of the cratch. You also regularly skin your shins.

 

Mark a 2x3 foot space on the floor and fasten a plank 5' 6" off the ground above it.

Now put a chair (seat around 18-20" high), stand on it and try and step down into the marked out 'square'.

"Steps" are typically 9"-12" in height so this is like stepping down a 'double height' step.

 

I wouldn't go out of my way to have one with a 'sunken-foredeck' again.

 

 

IMG_1528.JPG

Ah, I see what you mean Alan, surprising. Yes when you explain it like that I guess seats are surprisingly high, not far under a two foot step down/jump into a space with little room for run on from the momentum. Let's hope the boat builder won't take offense to me asking for a built in step ;)

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