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What boat builder for manufacture of a custom designed shell?


Phil_B

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50 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think you should put clear tolerances on your drawings and get a written signed contract from the builder agreeing that the boat will be built exactly to the drawing, no money  will be paid up front, and no money will be paid at all if there is any divergence from the drawings. You should also make it clear that you intend to take legal action if the job is not done to your satisfaction.

 

Let us know how you get on ?

 

....................Dave

It's how it works in ever other industry I have come across. Why should they have it all on their terms. The only other lot I can think of that work without the above are gypo's and I hope we all know what you get if you get them to tarmac your drive, lol.

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5 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

It's how it works in ever other industry I have come across. 

But you have not worked with boat builders, they do it how they do it, you will not change that. Go see boat builders instead of wasting time on here.

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1 hour ago, Phil_B said:

It's just a question of scaling up from the scale drawing. So either 1-50 or perhaps easier for them 1-100. Measurements in old money could be used if it suited them. Essentially we are just talking about overall height and everything above the hull here. The hull they do to their design so long as it comes in at near enough 34ft. Can't be that difficult to build to 34ft give or take an inch can it? Seeing as they are such craftsmen. 

And that shows you really don't have a clue!
FFS!! Get out from behind your bloody computer and go and see some actual, real steel narrow boat builders so you see what the REAL world is like.
I can assure you that they are craftsmen. It's just you can't or won't recognise that, even when the experts on this forum tell you.

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55 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

It's how it works in ever other industry I have come across. Why should they have it all on their terms. The only other lot I can think of that work without the above are gypo's and I hope we all know what you get if you get them to tarmac your drive, lol.

Insulting people now.
Your not going to get very far taking that attitude.

And here's a suggestion for you; go to the Morgan car factory in Malvern and see the rough and ready way they build some of their cars. I suspect you will be very shocked!

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50 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

It's how it works in ever other industry I have come across. Why should they have it all on their terms. The only other lot I can think of that work without the above are gypo's and I hope we all know what you get if you get them to tarmac your drive, lol.

With respect Phil i think it is obvious to most that you have no experience of boat builders or even canal boat builders. Visit a few and maybe you might appreciate what others have already said. Most reputable canal boat builders have been around for many many years, a fair number since leaving school and now in their 60s or even 70s.  I can think of some that have probably built thousands of shells. Tim Tyler and Jonathan Wilson spring to mind. My own "custom built" boat was designed by a Naval Architect and built by a 65year old, a 70 year old, and a "lad" of 40ish. Between them they probably had over a 120 years of boatbuilding experience. Whoever you approach for your boat build, please treat them with respect or you will not be received well. I know some of the comments made on here might grate a little but there is some good advice also. CAD may well make an appearance in canal boatbuilding but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Good luck with your project.

 

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2 hours ago, Joe Bourke said:

With respect Phil i think it is obvious to most that you have no experience of boat builders or even canal boat builders. Visit a few and maybe you might appreciate what others have already said. Most reputable canal boat builders have been around for many many years, a fair number since leaving school and now in their 60s or even 70s.  I can think of some that have probably built thousands of shells. Tim Tyler and Jonathan Wilson spring to mind. My own "custom built" boat was designed by a Naval Architect and built by a 65year old, a 70 year old, and a "lad" of 40ish. Between them they probably had over a 120 years of boatbuilding experience. Whoever you approach for your boat build, please treat them with respect or you will not be received well. I know some of the comments made on here might grate a little but there is some good advice also. CAD may well make an appearance in canal boatbuilding but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Good luck with your project.

 

Thanks, but your post highlights my fears of the industry being antiquated and not keeping up with the times. I think the 60-70 year old boys are the ones I'm going to want to stear clear off. They are very unlikely to understand what I want at all I think and it would be a pain for both of us. I certainly will visit some boat builders in the near future. At the moment though from looking online I'm thinking sailaways.net may be the best place to look at first for me. They at least have a focus on using CAD as per their website which also seems to want to reach out to the client which gives me a good first impression I think.

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5 hours ago, Phil_B said:

Thanks, but your post highlights my fears of the industry being antiquated and not keeping up with the times. I think the 60-70 year old boys are the ones I'm going to want to stear clear off. They are very unlikely to understand what I want at all I think and it would be a pain for both of us. I certainly will visit some boat builders in the near future. At the moment though from looking online I'm thinking sailaways.net may be the best place to look at first for me. They at least have a focus on using CAD as per their website which also seems to want to reach out to the client which gives me a good first impression I think.

Do please come back and tell us how you get on. I mean that.

 

You clearly have no experience of the narrowboat building world but are supremely confident that you know what you are doing. Over the years we’ve seen many folk with your attitude. It’s not turned out well, Whitefield being just one classic example. The reason most boatbuilders have not updated their methodology is that they are run off their feet with orders and see no need to change how they do things. The next build slot at Braidbar, for example, is to start in the Autumn of 2020.

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25 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Do please come back and tell us how you get on. I mean that.

 

You clearly have no experience of the narrowboat building world but are supremely confident that you know what you are doing. Over the years we’ve seen many folk with your attitude. It’s not turned out well, Whitefield being just one classic example. The reason most boatbuilders have not updated their methodology is that they are run off their feet with orders and see no need to change how they do things. The next build slot at Braidbar, for example, is to start in the Autumn of 2020.

The same stupidity exists in the Architecture industry. Architects that see no reason to move on in computing software technology. Same result, they are overwelmed with work - not because they have too much but because they are moving too slowly.

 

If the above boat builders moving with the times they would be able to complete more boats quicker. They would not be struggling to keep up. They would have increased profits. They would be able to get the steel plates machine cut from thd CAD  files.

 

I can see why many don't if they are in there 60s & 70s, they themselves know they only have so much time left so personally it's not going to be worth their bother and effort moving from something they have grown up with.

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6 hours ago, Phil_B said:

I'm thinking sailaways.net may be the best place to look at first for me.

The shortest they make is 50ft and the most basic unpainted, un shot-blasted semi-trad sailaway will cost £30k before you even start discussing custom requirements. 

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16 hours ago, Phil_B said:

Few yachts are built of wood these days. No I am not interested in dealing with old odd bods who can't move with the times. I am the customer if they have an attitude that 'it's all on my terms but I'll take your money and you will have to be satisfied with whatever you get' then no that's never going to be something I would accept. A bad overbearing attitude from a boat builder is going to remain so throughout thd build. What I am asking is what boat builders are not like this so I can avoid the odd bods or you could do me a favour and tell me thd odd bods I should certainly avoid :)

Few yachts are built with wood?

Don't visit the Broads or you will have your delusions dashed.

Phil 

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3 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

The same stupidity exists in the Architecture industry. Architects that see no reason to move on in computing software technology. Same result, they are overwelmed with work - not because they have too much but because they are moving too slowly.

 

If the above boat builders moving with the times they would be able to complete more boats quicker. They would not be struggling to keep up. They would have increased profits. They would be able to get the steel plates machine cut from thd CAD  files.

 

I can see why many don't if they are in there 60s & 70s, they themselves know they only have so much time left so personally it's not going to be worth their bother and effort moving from something they have grown up with.

 

But the only "fancy" shaped plates that might need "developing" to account for compound turns are are probably just four at the bow and having had them CAD cut they still need forming. Plus the two bulkheads. Boat builders do not tend to have wheeling machines and dollies to form 6mm steel. They certainly do not have presses many time more powerful than those in the motor industry. So where does the advantage of pre-cut steel come in? The vast majority of the plates are just rectangles and I think they are pretty much standard stock sizes so do come ready cut. As you have demonstrated customers want windows and doors in different positions and I suspect it is easier and cheaper the build the boat without the openings and then mark them out and discuss it with the customers who want a bespoke design. At that stage, when the customer can see the positions, they are likely to ask to change them. If the plates had been pre-cut it would involve welding plates into the apertures with the attendant danger of distortion and then grinding back to a fine finish. Where as once its chalked on the plates its a simple job to rub out and redraw.

 

There is no point in trying to persuade you that your method of working is unlikely to make much headway so I wish you well and join the others in asking you to come back and tell us how you got on.

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14 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

The same stupidity exists in the Architecture industry. Architects that see no reason to move on in computing software technology. Same result, they are overwelmed with work - not because they have too much but because they are moving too slowly.

 

If the above boat builders moving with the times they would be able to complete more boats quicker. They would not be struggling to keep up. They would have increased profits. They would be able to get the steel plates machine cut from thd CAD  files.

 

I can see why many don't if they are in there 60s & 70s, they themselves know they only have so much time left so personally it's not going to be worth their bother and effort moving from something they have grown up with.

So you have several hundreds of feet of welding plate in some cases both sides in a a few cases multi runs how will cad design speed up production over the chalk & tape & what happens if your computer "coughs" the chalk & tape is still going no problem & have you thought that maybe the builder would not want to incorporate your design his name is on the shell & though you may think your design is the " dogs dodahs" he may think differently & if you ever get afloat & a casual lock side chat the question comes up Who built your boat Reply XXXX boat builders & it will be his name that stays with the boat & if to others it doesn't look "quite right' it could cost him orders  in the future

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I think the OP should start his own boat building company, hoover up all the pent up demand for quality boats and make himself a fortune given how easy it will be using CAD. 

Just need to add a 3D printer and it's a winner.

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On 13/09/2018 at 01:38, Phil_B said:

Hi, I'm new here and I'm interested in having my own designed Narrow Boat built so am dojng some preliminary research. I was wondering which boat builders would be able to accomodate me in building their shell to my design modifications? I'm happy enough to go along with a boat builders hull design, but the cabin, bow and stern deck I wish to do to my design.

 

That said, I am generally looking for a traditional/standard hull. I'm not keen on Josher or Reeves types of hulls. I'm sure they perform well but to me I don't like the look of them, they look a bit strange on a Narrowboat I think, kind of foreign looking. I also am looking for a reasonably cheap shell build but reasonably decent workmanship also, so no real bad weld seams/lack of care on build, etc. I'm looking at building a NB around 34ft and so looking for a shell to be built for around 12k or so.

 

Ideally somewhere down south of UK would be good with me as it's where I'm from so I can visit regularly. Possibly Kennet & Avon canal direction maybe. I'm wishing to do the fit out myself just bringing in some trades for the more technical jobs. The engine, etc, window and door fittings I will want the boat yard to do. Also I would like to know of any boat builders that are ok of letting me have CAD file of the hull/shell so I can modify the cabin to my requirements to get an idea of how the whole thing will look.

I think that sailaways.net would be the last place you should consider Phil. They seem to specialise in fairly mundane, off the peg shells, not one-offs like you seem to want. The very boat builders you seem to be writing off are the ones who are the most likely to be able to accommodate you. After all we are only talking about a very small canal boat. I must admit I don't often read right through the threads on this forum but I have on this topic, it's been interesting.

 

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I'm wondering how you are going to fare on the canals, with your outlook and demeanor and unusual looking boat. There is nothing more traditional than a Josher hull.

Please bear in mind that boats that are well outside the mainstream are very difficult to sell on and they depreciate like a sinking ship.

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May I ask the OP a question out of curiosity?

 

What makes you think that canal boating is for you?

 

I think you said you are new to this forum, but I’m not sure if we know what you experience of canals is (I may not have read all the posts, so forgive me if I’ve missed this).

 

Many people on canals are here precisely because they like escaping many of the trappings of the modern world and embrace not having to keep up with the times.

 

As far as boat building goes it may be worth a reminder that this is a pretty small community.

There are something in the region of 35,000 (??) boats registered on CRT’s waters and many of them were built in the last century.

The size of the market does not necessarily encourage large-scale ambition.

 

Innovation is also much hampered not only by the value and interest that many people place on these waterways’ history and tradition, but also by the dimensions and infrastructure of the narrow canals.

It is not merely the restrictive dimensions of a lock which dictate a narrowboats’ design, but also the curve of bridges, the depth and shape of channel, the need to maintain rope and person quick access to certain areas, to not have additions which may cause potential damage to infrastructure or person.

For these reasons many design features have their origins firmly rooted in the 19th century!

Also, not many people will keep one boat for their entire lifetime, they will want to sell at some point, and something out-of-the-ordinary is frequently hard to sell (think the house sellers neutral colours!)

Sea going boats, and even river designs have a far greater scope for variation.

 

I think your internet search for builders is a good start. Many of what would be thought of here as the “best” builders are indeed older and often do not have the fanciest websites – they do not need to. Also many of these people will have long waiting lists.

 

I think you may be looking to find someone younger and perhaps more recently established who is not so entrenched in traditional ways. Sorry, but I am not able to help with any names.

 

As has been said before, please do update the forum with your progress. I for one am much intrigued as to what your bespoke designs may be! Good luck.

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I wonder if this boat is still available? Another one off experiment at "modernising" canal boats.

The asking price was somewhat in excess of £12k though.

 

$_57 (1).JPG

 

ETA. Further to Twooh10's very valid comments about boats being built to be "in sympathy" with their environment,  a bow as above could do damage to a lock gate or another boat.

Edited by Ray T
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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I think the OP should start his own boat building company, hoover up all the pent up demand for quality boats and make himself a fortune given how easy it will be using CAD. 

I think this is his only option as any builder who has his attention drawn to this thread would not touch the OP with a barge pole, given his attitude and abusive reactions. What’s he going to be like when it gets into the nitty gritty of production?

 

He’s now insulted several people I’m proud to call friends, so I’ll desist from offering him any further advice.

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1 minute ago, BruceinSanity said:

He’s now insulted several people I’m proud to call friends, so I’ll desist from offering him any further advice.

It does amuse me that he has written them off as thick hillbillies who can't work computers.  I know a few of them have built one of the precut kits just to see if it is easier than their usual method, and have either decided it isn't suitable for their building style, or use the technique for the "fiddly" bits where appropriate.

 

I'm wondering what he's going to make of a 200 year old muddy ditch with hand operated wooden gates to keep the water in.  That could do with bringing into the 21st century as well - maglev tracks perhaps?

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19 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

It does amuse me that he has written them off as thick hillbillies who can't work computers. 

 

Yes me too. 

 

To be fair I too came to the world of boating as a young engineer with an open mind full of ideas. I thought there would be a LOT I could 'bring to the table' given it was populated with old fuddy duddy stick-in-the-mud types justr as the OP seems to think. The more boating I did the clearer it became why things are done as they are. Evolution ensures the best way is settled upon. I was also surprised how quickly and widely new technologies that actually work better get adopted. CAD just doesn't happen to be one of them except in the field of bottom-of-the-market volume production, were minor benefits accrue. I suspect the industries the OP says he has been involved in where CAD is the norm are not built around individual high cost products built one at a time to individual specifications where the aesthetics are critically important. 

 

 

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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1 hour ago, Joe Bourke said:

I think that sailaways.net would be the last place you should consider Phil. They seem to specialise in fairly mundane, off the peg shells, not one-offs like you seem to want. The very boat builders you seem to be writing off are the ones who are the most likely to be able to accommodate you. After all we are only talking about a very small canal boat. I must admit I don't often read right through the threads on this forum but I have on this topic, it's been interesting.

 

Yeah I was wondering if they might be talked into doing a smaller one.

 

I'm now starting to think maybe get the boat done in Poland. I don't usually like to go that way but I'm thinking if they are a bit more open minded and the price is decent thenough it could be the way to go. I'm not willing to be dictated to what I will or won't have.

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