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What boat builder for manufacture of a custom designed shell?


Phil_B

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3 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Few yachts are built of wood these days. No I am not interested in dealing with old odd bods who can't move with the times. I am the customer if they have an attitude that 'it's all on my terms but I'll take your money and you will have to be satisfied with whatever you get' then no that's never going to be something I would accept. A bad overbearing attitude from a boat builder is going to remain so throughout thd build. What I am asking is what boat builders are not like this so I can avoid the odd bods or you could do me a favour and tell me thd odd bods I should certainly avoid :)

There are some very "odd bod" boatbuilderts on the cut, I expect they don't use CAD but they produce the very best boats and their names are held in high regard,almost worshipped. You could go and talk to them about your plans. We live in a world were the customer is king, or at least lead to believe he is king. The top odd bods have a waiting list and they choose their customers, the customer is most certainly not king.

 

...............Dave

 

 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Which suggest to me that the boat builders do not have the facilities / equipment / knowledge to computerise their designs relying on subcontractors to do the 'computerisation' for them so they can then forward the design to the steel suppliers to profile the parts.

 

The 'man' in the middle (the boat builder) doesn't appear to have the ability to use CAD

I don't see any problem with that, its quite a good business strategy. Just because a business farms out the design and the steel cutting does not mean they do not understand it, it means they have found it is the most efficient way.

Its not as though we are talking about a firm like Beneteau who have a production line , and are big enough to market, design, manufacture and fit out in house to a standard spec. Even these international companies will buy in materials, nuts and bolts etc etc. They won't be taking instruction from their customers on windows and doors but will offer a few add-ons to the basic spec.

The NB industry is made up of small scale boat builders and small scale fitters. The builders generally know more about design than the customer.

Edited by LadyG
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38 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Few yachts are built of wood these days. No I am not interested in dealing with old odd bods who can't move with the times. I am the customer if they have an attitude that 'it's all on my terms but I'll take your money and you will have to be satisfied with whatever you get' then no that's never going to be something I would accept. A bad overbearing attitude from a boat builder is going to remain so throughout thd build. What I am asking is what boat builders are not like this so I can avoid the odd bods or you could do me a favour and tell me thd odd bods I should certainly avoid :)

 

Yoyr position is subtly shifting all the time. Originally you wanted a whole custom designed shell with bow shaped to your specification iirc. Then you changed it to just custom window positions (which every boat has, so very easy) and some custom seating and shutters (whatever they are) but the builder had to use a CAD program to read you CAD files to get the dimensions. Now you talk about printing out your files and giving the builder some proper printed drawings. All good progress and we are

just about there. 

 

Next, we need you to get your “customer is king” attitude under control. It’s a two way street. Most she’ll builders build because they love building boats, not because they are grasping for your money. Once you’ve been told to get lost by a few builders you’ll begin to recognise your options closing off and that you need to actually coax a decent fabricator to accept your commission and drop this ‘its my money so you’ll do it my way’ attitude, which will get you nowhere unless you happen to get very lucky. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Steiner said:

Brinklow boat services 

Won't see any CAD here but boy can they build boats: http://brinklowboatservices.com/

 

They do have several very good computers on site, their brains and memory bank of their considerable experience.

 

Following on from Mike's comments above when Whitefield was built by Fernwood boats to get what they wanted it cost the customer in the region of £250K, about 8-10 years ago. Fernwood was about the only yard that would put their concept into reality.

 

Re read their approach philosophy.

 

"And so armed with our list, we looked at web sites and then visited several boat builders to put forward our thoughts. Now that was interesting!  Many of them just stared with their eyes seeming to glaze over as we tried to explain our bizarre concept for the cut. The lights were on but there was certainly nobody home at many of the places we visited.

Others trotted out such phrases such as:  "We haven't done that before".

Some even came out with such out of keeping comments that we knew they hadn't really fully digested the tablet." 

Edited by Ray T
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51 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Few yachts are built of wood these days. No I am not interested in dealing with old odd bods who can't move with the times. I am the customer if they have an attitude that 'it's all on my terms but I'll take your money and you will have to be satisfied with whatever you get' then no that's never going to be something I would accept. A bad overbearing attitude from a boat builder is going to remain so throughout thd build. What I am asking is what boat builders are not like this so I can avoid the odd bods or you could do me a favour and tell me thd odd bods I should certainly avoid :)

Really? Your reply really does show your ignorance, about boat builders in both wood and steel.

 

To repeat, you turn up to all the good canal boat builders with the budget and attitude you have shown here and you will not get very far. I suspect you will be shown the door very quickly and possibly in very basic Anglo Saxon language!

 

I suggest that you start listening to the numerous experts on here and act on what they say. I also you suggest that you get out from behind your computer screen and start actually visiting the real steel boat builders who know what they are doing and don't need computers and CAD to build fine and excellent boats. Go with a decent, respectful and open attitude and you might find that they will actually talk to you, discuss your requirements, correct them where you are quite obviously wrong or impractical and may even offer you a sensible and reasonable figure.

The answer totally lies in your court, but you need to change your attitude.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Phil_B said:

Few yachts are built of wood these days. No I am not interested in dealing with old odd bods who can't move with the times. I am the customer if they have an attitude that 'it's all on my terms but I'll take your money and you will have to be satisfied with whatever you get' then no that's never going to be something I would accept. A bad overbearing attitude from a boat builder is going to remain so throughout thd build. What I am asking is what boat builders are not like this so I can avoid the odd bods or you could do me a favour and tell me thd odd bods I should certainly avoid :)

Tempted to advise "all of them" and "go buy a yacht".

 

What you don't seem to be willing to get is that it is a CRAFT industry, not a highly industrialized  process that needs all manner of computer control. From what I have seen around the system you are so far out of touch with reality a barge pole is not long enough.

 

You need to find a general fabricator who builds all manner of things from steel to the customers spec. and thus probably uses CAD but I very much doubt you are realistic price wise.

 

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

You need to find a general fabricator who builds all manner of things from steel to the customers spec. and thus probably uses CAD but I very much doubt you are realistic price wise.

http://www.skipmanufacturers.co.uk/skips?gclid=CjwKCAjwuO3cBRAyEiwAzOxKsm7c17U3MdpajMqKzrhhpidFNVF9Hruneqy6qzOHyABKsFcm2GK2jRoC7psQAvD_BwE

 

If you consider that a steel narrowboat is simply an elongated 'skip' with windows it may be worth the OP considering someone like the above who "manufacture bespoke skips" (scroll down)

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As already stated there is no way I would turn up at a boat builder without CAD print outs. The print outs would show exactly what I wanted. No I wouldn't turn up with a tablet or laptop, it's too awkward showing someone on a small screen what you want. It would of course really need to be A1 sheets. I would have thought though in this day and age they would be able to print out to that size themselves. It's really bizarre that some of them seem to operate in the backwards way some of you on here suggest.

 

Someone stated I am moving over from my original position in here. That is not so much the case as ascertaining what the situation is. On that I thank the posters who have enlightened me. It does seem that my idea of customisation was not quite the Industry idea of customisation and that most if the specifics that I have will be standard customer requirements. This appears to be good news as it will keep the cost down. It looks like to me if you ask for anything a bit too much out of the usual the price goes up pretty steep. The Whitefield example doesn't look too wacky yet the £250k it cost is a ridiculous amount of money. Though of course that includes fit out. My thought is that they load the cost on for anything a bit unusual.

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1 hour ago, Ray T said:

Following on from Mike's comments above when Whitefield was built by Fernwood boats to get what they wanted it cost the customer in the region of £250K, about 8-10 years ago. Fernwood was about the only yard that would put their concept into reality.

And of course they aren’t there any more. That shell was by Tim Tyler, but he’s going to ask a lot more than £12k for a one off. And he’s very busy.

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17 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

And of course they aren’t there any more. That shell was by Tim Tyler, but he’s going to ask a lot more than £12k for a one off. And he’s very busy.

Will people on here forget the 12k! Sure I can spend more than 12k, but I'm looking for it to not be a lot more than that. Who on here has had a reasonably cheap hull built for them of recent?

 

Perhaps more importantly, at which point does a boat design cross into a custom design that boat builders would start loading the £'s on?

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32 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

 It would of course really need to be A1 sheets. I would have thought though in this day and age they would be able to print out to that size themselves. 

 

Even if all of their boats were built from CAD plans there is no way any small narrow boat builder is going to print off enough drawings to justify the cost of running an A1 printer.  I have worked in an office with one and they are expensive to run. Far better, that when the odd customer does turn up with a  CAD plan, to run down to the local print/copy shop with the plan on a memory stick.

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3 hours ago, Phil_B said:

Difference is people have more specific requirements these days. Back in the day when narrowboats were use for hauling coal etc I'm sure the requirements were quite basic and no one was that fussed.

 

Early leisure narrowboats probably weren't that fussed either. Now a days though that the technology is available to have accuracy and simple customisation with ease why not. Have the boat built around and to the wants of the user rather than just people in general. We're not talking a lot of complex stuff here either.

 

Boat Builders should welcome CAD print outs. A good A1 size set of print outs will tell them exactly what is required. It will save them time working out how to translate a sketch into a boat. It will also save on disputes. They won't have the client turning up each day saying 'this is not what I wanted/we discussed' or 'you've done it like this and I want it more like that'. Any builder who after being shown CAD  drawings then promptly went to sketch I would not use. Good CAD drawings will show in far better detail and clarity what is required.

So the really didn't matter what they ended up like because they were made for hauling coal boats perform in nearly every case better in every respect than modern design & built leisure boats and they were built with mostly manpower & rivets but the under water shapes were the best performing for the job & not a cad drawing any where to be seen "Whoops" a good many years before the computer came along I tried to be a help as your OP although a bit wayward I put down to lack of  knowledge  but in later posts it'comes across as you class canal shell/boat builders as living in the stone age & want to dictate your ways yet you want their services to build you a top class shell for scrap value money Sorry I think you  will be disappointed, as you seem entrenched in you Cad design I ll leave you to do your own research

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I am surprised there has been no real comment on your proposed boat length - 34 ft. This is very short for a narrow boat. Such boats do exist, but they are relatively few in number, and much less common among more recently built craft. After you have allowed for whatever length bow and stern decks you have in mind and space for the engine, the actual cabin space will be quite short, and the accommodation will be correspondingly restricted.

 

And short boats are much more expensive per unit length. You still need all the complicated fabrication for the bow and stern, you still need an engine installed, and all the electric, gas and plumbing  systems. All you save compared with a longer boat is the much easier parallel fabrication and lining of the middle section, and some lengths of pipework and wiring.

 

On the other hand, you can at least share narrow locks with another similar sized boat!

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14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I am surprised there has been no real comment on your proposed boat length - 34 ft. This is very short for a narrow boat. Such boats do exist, but they are relatively few in number, and much less common among more recently built craft. After you have allowed for whatever length bow and stern decks you have in mind and space for the engine, the actual cabin space will be quite short, and the accommodation will be correspondingly restricted.

 

And short boats are much more expensive per unit length. You still need all the complicated fabrication for the bow and stern, you still need an engine installed, and all the electric, gas and plumbing  systems. All you save compared with a longer boat is the much easier parallel fabrication and lining of the middle section, and some lengths of pipework and wiring.

 

On the other hand, you can at least share narrow locks with another similar sized boat!

About 34ft is enough for my needs. I would save on CRT license fees and marina fees. It would be roomy enough inside how I have planned it.

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59 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Will people on here forget the 12k! Sure I can spend more than 12k, but I'm looking for it to not be a lot more than that. Who on here has had a reasonably cheap hull built for them of recent?

 

Perhaps more importantly, at which point does a boat design cross into a custom design that boat builders would start loading the £'s on?

Probably as soon as you turn up with CAD drawings and the cost quoted may well be an I don't want this type of customer price.

 

When I wanted the stern rail  on my boat altered I produced a proper dimensioned set of drawings plus very clear  text describing exactly what I wanted.  They said they understood. When the job was done and it was at variance to the drawings I was told "we considered the drawings to be indicative" but this was not a new build, it was only stern rails done at a boatyard. I have doubts they could read the drawings or if they did felt they knew better and I am willing to admit they may well have done although it made the fabrication and fitting I did after that rather more difficult.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Probably as soon as you turn up with CAD drawings and the cost quoted may well be an I don't want this type of customer price.

 

When I wanted the stern rail  on my boat altered I produced a proper dimensioned set of drawings plus very clear  text describing exactly what I wanted.  They said they understood. When the job was done and it was at variance to the drawings I was told "we considered the drawings to be indicative" but this was not a new build, it was only stern rails done at a boatyard. I have doubts they could read the drawings or if they did felt they knew better and I am willing to admit they may well have done although it made the fabrication and fitting I did after that rather more difficult.

Exactly Tony, glad to see there is someone who knows what I am going on about :)

 

In your case you specified how you wanted the handrails for a reason, same would be for me if I commissioned a new build hull. If the end job resulted in me being dissatisfied I would have not paid, they would either do the job again right or go without payment. I'm sure any court would support me in such a situation.

 

No I really do think I am going to have to be careful in who I chose. Boatyard's such as the one you went to for your work Tony would do my head in. I can't believe they did that after you went to all the effort and consideration of producing dimensioned set of drawings for them.

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1 hour ago, Phil_B said:

As already stated there is no way I would turn up at a boat builder without CAD print outs. The print outs would show exactly what I wanted. No I wouldn't turn up with a tablet or laptop, it's too awkward showing someone on a small screen what you want. It would of course really need to be A1 sheets. I would have thought though in this day and age they would be able to print out to that size themselves. It's really bizarre that some of them seem to operate in the backwards way some of you on here suggest.

AND AGAIN YOU AREN'T LISTENING TO WHAT THE EXPERTS ON HERE ARE TELLING YOU! IT IS NOT "BIZARRE" THAT THEY WORK IN THE WAY THEY DO. THEY DO IT BECAUSE THAT IS THE BEST WAY. THERE IS NO RELEVANCE BETWEEN AN A1 SHEET AND AN 8' X 4' SHEET OF STEEL. WHEN WILL YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

 

Someone stated I am moving over from my original position in here. That is not so much the case as ascertaining what the situation is. On that I thank the posters who have enlightened me. It does seem that my idea of customisation was not quite the Industry idea of customisation and that most if the specifics that I have will be standard customer requirements. This appears to be good news as it will keep the cost down. It looks like to me if you ask for anything a bit too much out of the usual the price goes up pretty steep. The Whitefield example doesn't look too wacky yet the £250k it cost is a ridiculous amount of money. Though of course that includes fit out. My thought is that they load the cost on for anything a bit unusual.

WHITFIELD WAS MASSIVELY DIFFERENT, AS YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD! THEREFORE IT COST MUCH, MUCH MORE THAN A NORMAL NARROW BOAT. FROM THAT COMMENT I'M BEGINNING TO THINK YOU ACTUALLY HAVE NO EXPERIENCE OF NARROW BOATS.
PLEASE GET OUT FROM BEHIND YOUR COMPUTER SCREEN AND GO AND SEE ACTUAL BOATS AND TALK TO ACTUAL BOAT BUILDERS. WHEN YOU'VE DONE THAT COME BACK HERE AND THEN DISCUSS YOUR IDEAS.

 

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42 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

About 34ft is enough for my needs. I would save on CRT license fees and marina fees. It would be MIGHT BE roomy enough inside how I have planned it.

Corrected that for you, as you have NO experience of narrow boats or their design.
(As you have been told numerous times)

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You would find it useful to visit some boatyards and see how the process works from large pieces of steel to finished boat. Ours was built using basic drawings, setting things out on floor space to agree where things went, a good eye and oodles of experience - the boat builder got it spot on. We had a retro fit stove, the flue was perfect, the fabricator took a couple of measurements and used his skill to fabricate the perfect fit. There is a wealth of skill and craftsmanship out there, don't just dismiss someone who is not keen on CAD.

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23 minutes ago, Phil_B said:

Exactly Tony, glad to see there is someone who knows what I am going on about :)

 

In your case you specified how you wanted the handrails for a reason, same would be for me if I commissioned a new build hull. If the end job resulted in me being dissatisfied I would have not paid, they would either do the job again right or go without payment. I'm sure any court would support me in such a situation.

 

No I really do think I am going to have to be careful in who I chose. Boatyard's such as the one you went to for your work Tony would do my head in. I can't believe they did that after you went to all the effort and consideration of producing dimensioned set of drawings for them.

I think you should put clear tolerances on your drawings and get a written signed contract from the builder agreeing that the boat will be built exactly to the drawing, no money  will be paid up front, and no money will be paid at all if there is any divergence from the drawings. You should also make it clear that you intend to take legal action if the job is not done to your satisfaction.

 

Let us know how you get on ?

 

....................Dave

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39 minutes ago, Graham Davis said:

 

It's just a question of scaling up from the scale drawing. So either 1-50 or perhaps easier for them 1-100. Measurements in old money could be used if it suited them. Essentially we are just talking about overall height and everything above the hull here. The hull they do to their design so long as it comes in at near enough 34ft. Can't be that difficult to build to 34ft give or take an inch can it? Seeing as they are such craftsmen. 

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