Help with electrics, GPR Cruiser, new to boating

[Docking_Dave]

Hi All, 

 

I am completely new to boating and considering purchasing a GPR Buckingham 25ft cruiser with an outboard Honda 100 petrol four stroke engine. 

 

There is 12v points and 240v sockets but I am concerned that there may not be enough power generated when mooring away from the marina with power. 

 

I will only be using the cruiser at weekends with a maximum of 2-3 nights sleeping onboard.

 

Being new to the boating world I would really appreciate any advice on the following;

 

- Is it possible to have another battery installed (leisure battery) to add more power when away from the marina?

- Would enough power be generated to watch tv, run a fridge, oil radiator, and charge phones for 5-6 hours when cruising?

- Is  it worth buying a solar panel? and if so, would 100w be sufficient? 

 

I will get battery powered LED lights and power banks for phones to save on power but I am concerned that an oil radiator and fridge will consume the power in a short period of time. 

 

I understand the pitfalls with having a petrol outboard engine but finances are restricted and a diesel cruiser is far more expensive. I would like to have some form of heating but most forums suggest this is not possible with a petrol cruiser due to safety (carbon monoxide), however someone has posted that using an oil radiator is safe and adequate, is this correct? 

 

Sorry for all the questions but I am a nervous newbie ?

 

Many Thanks 

 

Dave 

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Docking_Dave said:

Hi All, 

 

I am completely new to boating and considering purchasing a GPR Buckingham 25ft cruiser with an outboard Honda 100 petrol four stroke engine. 

 

There is 12v points and 240v sockets but I am concerned that there may not be enough power generated when mooring away from the marina with power. 

 

I will only be using the cruiser at weekends with a maximum of 2-3 nights sleeping onboard.

 

Being new to the boating world I would really appreciate any advice on the following;

 

- Is it possible to have another battery installed (leisure battery) to add more power when away from the marina?

- Would enough power be generated to watch tv, run a fridge, oil radiator, and charge phones for 5-6 hours when cruising?

- Is  it worth buying a solar panel? and if so, would 100w be sufficient? 

 

I will get battery powered LED lights and power banks for phones to save on power but I am concerned that an oil radiator and fridge will consume the power in a short period of time. 

 

I understand the pitfalls with having a petrol outboard engine but finances are restricted and a diesel cruiser is far more expensive. I would like to have some form of heating but most forums suggest this is not possible with a petrol cruiser due to safety (carbon monoxide), however someone has posted that using an oil radiator is safe and adequate, is this correct? 

 

Sorry for all the questions but I am a nervous newbie ?

 

Many Thanks 

 

Dave 

Yes, no, yes, no!

 

If the boat will have shorepower (and has a battery charger) it will be fine - the batteries will be fully charged by the weekend.  

 

Adding another battery makes good sense if you will regularly use it away from mains power, as does adding a decent solar system.  The size of the solar system depends on your usage requirements and physical space on the boat roof.  I don't think you could ever have too much on a Buckingham cruiser.

 

There is no way you can run an oil filled electric radiator (2-3 kW) for a weekend from an outboard and one leisure battery.  The fridge might be a huge challenge (depending on type of fridge) and the TV might be too.

 

Charging a phone should be OK.

 

I'm not being negative here - most liveaboard boaters who are not plugged in will have typically 4 or 6 110 Ah batteries and still would not be able to run an oil radiator. 

 

Heating options for boats are basically solid fuel stove (wood, coal etc), diesel fuelled stove or central heating, diesel or gas powered warm air heater in that order.

[Docking_Dave]

Thanks biscuits, I really appreciate the advice. 

 

I am somewhat confused with the heating situation as some say you cannot have a fuel stove (which I would love) or a warm air heater on a petrol boat due to carbon monoxide as it could ignite and explode. 

 

I would understand if it was an inboard petrol engine but surely being an outboard makes it safer? I cannot see how the fumes would gather below with an outboard. Obviously I would have carbon monoxide detectors everywhere, even stuck on my arse (lol). 

 

If it is safe and possible I would opt for a fuel stove, would make for cosy evenings ?

 

The fridge and TV are 12v so hopefully these could last for at least a days cruising away from the marina. 

 

Thanks again 

[Boater Sam]

Your outboard motor develops about as much charge for batteries as rubbing 2 sticks together.

Oil filled radiator? You need a power station for that, not a boat. 1kw @240v  equates to 80 Amps + inverter losses from 12v batteries so forget it.

[David Mack]

Electric heating is a complete no-no - even for boats with oodles of generating capacity.

 

An extra battery gives you more electricity storage, but also a greater requirement to recharge. Most outboards have very limited battery charging capacity, so you will be reliant on recharging via the shoreline at your mooring. Solar will help considerably. Note that if you regularly run the batteries down below about 50% without then fully recharging you can expect a shorter battery life (there are countless battery life threads on here).

 

The fridge is the biggest consumer of electricity on most boats. If you are only cruising at weekends and staying 2-3 nights do you really need a fridge? Most food will keep well enough for a couple of days without. Or you could construct a food locker under the floor where the boat is coolest.  Or bring food from home in a coolbox with icepacks which have been pre-frozen in your home freezer.

 

The cheapest option for heating is warm clothes and a decent sleeping bag. Otherwise on a GRP cruiser, gas fired warm air heating is probably the most practical (I assume you already have gas for cooking and maybe water heating). There's also no reason why you can't fit a solid fuel stove to a GRP cruiser, but they tend to take up quite a lot of space in a small cabin.

[Alan de Enfield]

Basically you can have dozens of batteries and power anything you want, BUT, the problem you have is that you need to replace the power used (re-charge the batteries), unfortunately outboard engines are not designed to recharge 'domestic' batteries. They have a small alternator which is sufficient to keep the starter battery charged.

 

If you plan to use so many appliances you will need to have a generator to run on the bank-side when you moor up.

[Docking_Dave]

4 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Electric heating is a complete no-no - even for boats with oodles of generating capacity.

 

An extra battery gives you more electricity storage, but also a greater requirement to recharge. Most outboards have very limited battery charging capacity, so you will be reliant on recharging via the shoreline at your mooring. Solar will help considerably. Note that if you regularly run the batteries down below about 50% without then fully recharging you can expect a shorter battery life (there are countless battery life threads on here).

 

The fridge is the biggest consumer of electricity on most boats. If you are only cruising at weekends and staying 2-3 nights do you really need a fridge? Most food will keep well enough for a couple of days without. Or you could construct a food locker under the floor where the boat is coolest.  Or bring food from home in a coolbox with icepacks which have been pre-frozen in your home freezer.

 

The cheapest option for heating is warm clothes and a decent sleeping bag. Otherwise on a GRP cruiser, gas fired warm air heating is probably the most practical (I assume you already have gas for cooking and maybe water heating). There's also no reason why you can't fit a solid fuel stove to a GRP cruiser, but they tend to take up quite a lot of space in a small cabin.

Thanks David, 

 

Great idea with the fridge and frozen food, i will disconnect the fridge. 

 

I read about gas fired warm air but some are saying its not safe with petrol onboard, not sure how true this is. I would love a fuel stove so I will probably go for that. 

[Docking_Dave]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Basically you can have dozens of batteries and power anything you want, BUT, the problem you have is that you need to replace the power used (re-charge the batteries), unfortunately outboard engines are not designed to recharge 'domestic' batteries. They have a small alternator which is sufficient to keep the starter battery charged.

 

If you plan to use so many appliances you will need to have a generator to run on the bank-side when you moor up.

Thanks Alan, 

 

I wanted to avoid a generator due to noise and more petrol fumes. It could be a case of trial and error with using solar panel and cutting out some of the items. 

 

I am gong to look at as many battery powered items as I can (push lights etc) and get a fuel stove for heating. Then it is just the 12v TV and water pump to worry about. 

 

There is gas as there is a gas hob but people are making me soooo nervous about using gas on a petrol cruiser. 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Docking_Dave said:

There is gas as there is a gas hob but people are making me soooo nervous about using gas on a petrol cruiser

It is certainly a big risk, having a naked flame on a gas hot air heater is nit a good idea on a petrol powered boat.

 

People do manage to have petrol powered boats and have heating so it can be done.

 

Careful management of fuel will help - NO refuelling on the boat (lift the can out onto the bank and refuel bankside), ensure any spare petrol is stored 'outside' of the boat. The problem is not liquid petrol but the petrol fumes which can sink into the bottom of the boat, accumulate and are highly explosive.

 

Had you asked on the forum prior to buying the boat I believe the general advice would have been not to buy it.

 

It can be done, but I'd suggest not using gas heating. Maybe some petrol boat owners can come and explain how they work around the perceived problems.

[Docking_Dave]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is certainly a big risk, having a naked flame on a gas hot air heater is nit a good idea on a petrol powered boat.

 

People do manage to have petrol powered boats and have heating so it can be done.

 

Careful management of fuel will help - NO refuelling on the boat (lift the can out onto the bank and refuel bankside), ensure any spare petrol is stored 'outside' of the boat. The problem is not liquid petrol but the petrol fumes which can sink into the bottom of the boat, accumulate and are highly explosive.

 

Had you asked on the forum prior to buying the boat I believe the general advice would have been not to buy it.

 

It can be done, but I'd suggest not using gas heating. Maybe some petrol boat owners can come and explain how they work around the perceived problems.

I have not bought the cruiser as yet, I am viewing it tomorrow morning so I can still pull out. 

 

I did read up on petrol boats and most do recommend to avoid, however I wanted to explore the options before deciding. Petrol boats are far cheaper but I suppose that's for a good reason. 

 

Perhaps I will hold off for a diesel and hope for a bargain to come up ?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Docking_Dave said:

Perhaps I will hold off for a diesel and hope for a bargain to come up 

That would be my suggestion.

(Other opinions are available)

[Mike Hurley]

Does it really have a 100 HP engine?

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Does it really have a 100 HP engine?

The Honda 100 is a very early model and is actually 10hp.

 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Naughty Cal]

35 minutes ago, Docking_Dave said:

Thanks David, 

 

Great idea with the fridge and frozen food, i will disconnect the fridge. 

 

I read about gas fired warm air but some are saying its not safe with petrol onboard, not sure how true this is. I would love a fuel stove so I will probably go for that. 

Gas heating uses a lot of gas. Diesel blown air heating is more economical. You would just need to fit a small tank to run it .

 

The Planar warm air heaters and Chinese copies are available cheaply on EBay.

 

These heaters still need some electric to run the fans and pump but once running use very little power.

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That would be my suggestion.

(Other opinions are available)

Mine also. I posted a link to several nice diesel powered cruisers the other day.

 

Also bear in mind that the on-board diesel engine will provide you with a bigger alternator and will heat your hot water.

[Boater Sam]

Petrol powered boats have one huge advantage.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They only go bang once.

[Robbo]

12 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Petrol powered boats have one huge advantage.........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They only go bang once.

Doesn’t that depend on the stroke and revs your doing?

[Docking_Dave]

Just speaking out loud, but is in not possible to convert a cruiser from petrol to diesel? 

 

Sorry if its a silly question, I am not mechanically savy ?

 

The only reason I ask is that I have seen a good project cruiser but without an engine. I believe it was previously a petrol so I am sure it would be costly to change, if possible, however they do not want much for the boat. 

 

Even if the conversion cost me £1,000 it would be well worth it. 

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Docking_Dave said:

Just speaking out loud, but is in not possible to convert a cruiser from petrol to diesel? 

 

Sorry if its a silly question, I am not mechanically savy ?

 

The only reason I ask is that I have seen a good project cruiser but without an engine. I believe it was previously a petrol so I am sure it would be costly to change, if possible, however they do not want much for the boat. 

 

Even if the conversion cost me £1,000 it would be well worth it. 

Anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, but if you are buying a budget boat do you have £5000 - £10,0000 - £????? to throw at it.

It will (nearly) always be cheaper to buy a complete boat than try and build one from parts unless you virtually get given the boat.

 

If you hunt around people are giving away engineless boat-hulls - some even pay to have them taken away. Unless the boat has some wonderful redeeming features or components with value (Radar, new 12v fridge, eberspacher heating, trailer, etc etc) then look to offer to 'take it away free of charge'

 

A new diesel engine will cost £5k +, then you need a gearbox £1k+, then you need to (probably) modify all the engine bearers (as a different engine will have different spacing on the bearers), 'plumbing' (cooling), wiring, exhaust etc etc will all need modifications (and add cost)

 

You say you are 'not mechanically savvy' so will you be paying 'boat yard' labour rates of about £40 + VAT per hour ?

100 hours (£5000) could soon be accrued in labour charges alone.

 

I have a spare Lister LWPS4 which could be used (PM me if interested in a 'deal) but the additional costs would probably far outweigh the value of the boat once done.

 

Naughty Cal posted a list of 'cheap' diesel powered GRP cruisers in another thread - maybe you could find it or she could re-post.

 

Having some idea of your budget would help us to make suggestions (remember to keep £1000 back for surveys, £500 back for licence, Insurance £100, and £1000 for immediate repairs that become apparent the day after you have bought it,), 

Edited September 12, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Bee]

Fridges. Yes they do consume a lot of power but much of the time they don't really need to be on. This summer in France it was really, really hot, day and night but we run the 12 volt fridge all the time when we are moving (And charge phones etc.) probably 4 hours a day, and an hour or so with the engine off in the evening, in the little freezer compartment we froze 2 bottles of water then moved them into the fridge bit at night. We always had really cold beer, wine, and water and stuff stayed fresh. We only have two 110 AH batteries that are showing their age and it is all a bit of a faff but cold drinks when its 36 C are nice. Normal rules re. refreezing food apply, i.e. don't and I'm not sure that your engine will make enough electric but it works for us.

[Naughty Cal]

Nice well specced Freeman 22 with diesel engine here.

 

https://www.boatshed.com/freeman_22-boat-253764.html

 

Spec includes bow thruster, blown air heating, etc. 

[ronnietucker]

On 12/09/2018 at 10:49, Docking_Dave said:

Hi All, 

 

I am completely new to boating and considering purchasing a GPR Buckingham 25ft cruiser with an outboard Honda 100 petrol four stroke engine. 

 

There is 12v points and 240v sockets but I am concerned that there may not be enough power generated when mooring away from the marina with power. 

 

I will only be using the cruiser at weekends with a maximum of 2-3 nights sleeping onboard.

 

Being new to the boating world I would really appreciate any advice on the following;

 

- Is it possible to have another battery installed (leisure battery) to add more power when away from the marina?

- Would enough power be generated to watch tv, run a fridge, oil radiator, and charge phones for 5-6 hours when cruising?

- Is  it worth buying a solar panel? and if so, would 100w be sufficient? 

 

I will get battery powered LED lights and power banks for phones to save on power but I am concerned that an oil radiator and fridge will consume the power in a short period of time. 

 

I understand the pitfalls with having a petrol outboard engine but finances are restricted and a diesel cruiser is far more expensive. I would like to have some form of heating but most forums suggest this is not possible with a petrol cruiser due to safety (carbon monoxide), however someone has posted that using an oil radiator is safe and adequate, is this correct? 

 

Sorry for all the questions but I am a nervous newbie ?

 

Many Thanks 

 

Dave 

It sounds like you're in the same situation as me.

 

I have a 22ft GRP (with petrol outboard) which had one battery (to start the engine and do lighting). I fitted a second battery (for lights etc leaving the first battery for the engine) and a solar panel to charge both batteries. I mostly stay over the weekend and find that the second battery does me well for basic LED lighting, charging a phone, etc.

 

My challenge to myself was to see if I could do it using NO shore power. And I can. BUT... when it gets to winter it gets harder to keep the batteries charged due to almost no sunshine. After a while I usually end up having to bring the batteries home for a full charge. This year I might activate and use shore power over winter for the batteries, and maybe keep a small heater on to keep out the damp.

 

For entertainment, I listen to the radio or use my Bluetooth speaker (with my phone). I don't bother with a TV. If I want to watch something I'll bring a tablet and maybe watch some YouTube. Usually I'll also bring a full USB battery bank in case of an emergency and that way I can still charge a phone. without using the leisure battery.

 

I don't use a fridge. I have a coolbox onboard and bring some freezer blocks with me with my food. Pop it all in the coolbox and that does me for a weekend easy. Mostly for food I'll bring dry goods. That way I don't need to rely on a fridge or the freezer blocks.

 

For heating, I have a small wood burning stove that I bought on eBay and fitted myself. It passed a BSS no problem at all.

 

I'd say if the price is right, go for it. Even if I don't move my boat, I think of it as my weekend glamping  

[Naughty Cal]

Cheap little diesel cruiser.

 

http://www.jonesboatyard.co.uk/boat-sales/flevo-24-boat-for-sale-6878.html

 

And another

 

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/sm-9580-knot-a-wake/?sf_action=get_data&sf_data=results&_sfm_price=0+396000&_sfm_year=0+2017&_sfm_berths=0+8&_sfm_length=0+95&_sfm_beam=0+18&_sfm_draft=0+6&sf_paged=2

 

A pair of diesels in this one.

 

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/sm-9543-marianne/?_sfm_price=0+396000&_sfm_year=0+2017&_sfm_berths=0+8&_sfm_length=0+95&_sfm_beam=0+18&_sfm_draft=0+6&sf_paged=2

 

https://bwml.co.uk/brokerage/pm-tamara/?sf_action=get_data&sf_data=results&_sfm_price=0+396000&_sfm_year=0+2017&_sfm_berths=0+8&_sfm_length=0+95&_sfm_beam=0+18&_sfm_draft=0+6&sf_paged=7

Edited September 14, 2018 by Naughty Cal