Perkins Engine 3.152 Spluttering and Stalling

[Boater Sam]

That would be fun in a boat, how would you stall it? Hand over the exhaust? I don't think so, look dad no hand.

[Tony Brooks]

3 hours ago, sirweste said:

Cheers for the post 

 

Yer I agree, I feel like a right bastard using it. Hearing him pinking like hell is never nice. But I'm not too concerned about the risk of breaking lumps off things, my opinion is that a tough old Perkins lump will be alright. If not then I'll deal with that when it happens.

Have spent a few hours trying to bleed the engine before, confident I'm I've not missed out. If I can be bothered I'll pop up a step by step on here one time, but for now I'm happy to be the occasional horrible bugger!

 

Not logical, as I used i to get it going again after it had occurred.

 

If, after you have bled the system you get great clouds of white "smoke" from the exhaust then you did bleed it properly and the problem is likely to be something different. Ift here is no smoke or only a few wisps then its not bled properly.

 

If you get the "smoke" yet it refuses to start at this time of year then the most likely explanation is lack of compression.

It could be the injection timing is wrong but if you feel you get  more or less full power this is unlikely, especially if it does not smoke much when running.

 

The "thing" in the manifold of a Perkins is likely to be a flame plug (Thermostart) but that needs plumbing into the fuel system or fitting a tiny fuel tank for it. The other thing it might be is n intake air heater like a small electric fire that glows red. In either case a blow lamp up the air intake is likely to be just as good or better but not just after using Easystart or into an air cleaner, especially a plastic one.

[sirweste]

Hi Tony,

 

Thanks for the info, I should clarify: I feel that I haven't missed a step, however I clearly am not doing something quite right as it doesn't start! If I get it spun up on easistart then it runs and thus bleeds itself. Logically there's something that I aint getting right, but it's such a massive ballache, it's way way easier to just do a couple of quick points of bleeding and then easistart!!!

[Jess--]

if you keep needing to use easy start to make the engine bleed itself then it points very strongly at a leak on your fuel lines allowing air in and diesel to drain back to the tank

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, sirweste said:

Hi Tony,

 

Thanks for the info, I should clarify: I feel that I haven't missed a step, however I clearly am not doing something quite right as it doesn't start! If I get it spun up on easistart then it runs and thus bleeds itself. Logically there's something that I aint getting right, but it's such a massive ballache, it's way way easier to just do a couple of quick points of bleeding and then easistart!!!

You know its a two stage process. First bleed the low pressure side that usually goes top of engine filter, then the injector pump. When that is done and no more air is coming out loosen the main injector union nuts about half to one turn and the spin the engine on the stater until fuel spits out of the unions. Tighten unions and it should go.

 

The image of a P3-152 I found on line showed a mechanically governed  CAV or Rotodiesel DPA pump with electric stop that may be energise to run so make sure the stop is set for run (be it ignition on or off) and bleed from the bleed screws on both the cylindrical pump body and rectangular top part with the levers on it. If its a different pump then  a photo may help identify it.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Jess-- said:

if you keep needing to use easy start to make the engine bleed itself then it points very strongly at a leak on your fuel lines allowing air in and diesel to drain back to the tank

I am not sure of that, I suspect he may not be bleeding the injector pipes so needs enough speed on the engine to compress the air in the pipes enough to open the injector but as he is reluctant to give much info apart from he is going to keep on using Easystart we can only guess.

[sirweste]

Cheers for the advice. 

 

As I said I'm happy to use easistart, it's quick and...well...easy! The frequency with which I use it makes it a perfectly acceptable tool in my opinion. 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If, after you have bled the system you get great clouds of white "smoke" from the exhaust then you did bleed it properly and the problem is likely to be something different. Ift here is no smoke or only a few wisps then its not bled properly.

 

If you get the "smoke" yet it refuses to start at this time of year then the most likely explanation is lack of compression.

It could be the injection timing is wrong but if you feel you get  more or less full power this is unlikely, especially if it does not smoke much when running.

 

The "thing" in the manifold of a Perkins is likely to be a flame plug (Thermostart) but that needs plumbing into the fuel system or fitting a tiny fuel tank for it. The other thing it might be is n intake air heater like a small electric fire that glows red. In either case a blow lamp up the air intake is likely to be just as good or better but not just after using Easystart or into an air cleaner, especially a plastic one. 

 

I am sure that this is good advice but can the op try it please then he could post a story even better than the one from Mr Biz in post 25.

 

.............Dave

[sirweste]

You're asking someone you've never met to create a large fireball / explosion, almost certainly causing some sort of personal injury...

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, sirweste said:

You're asking someone you've never met to create a large fireball / explosion, almost certainly causing some sort of personal injury...

I suppose it could be considered a good wheeze - also 'Darwins' people who ask for advice and refuse to accept the advice given is better than using easy-start.

[sirweste]

But I haven't made claim that the advice nor methods given isn't better than using easy start. I've politely thanks the advice given, read and understood it, however it's will require time to get right and learn the bang on right procedure for my lump. Time which I'm not willing to invest when there's fuel filters to clean and then other bits of life to get back on with. Again the frequency with which I use it makes it a perfectly acceptable tool in my (fairly well educated) opinion.

Again thanks for the advice, once I've had a look at filters I'll post back to say how I got on

[dmr]

3 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Cheers for the advice. 

 

As I said I'm happy to use easistart, it's quick and...well...easy! The frequency with which I use it makes it a perfectly acceptable tool in my opinion. 

 

I helped a friend move a project boat a few weeks ago, its BMC had no working glow plugs and almost no compression. Starting technique was to squirt in lots of Easystart, rev engine flat out (or even more) for about 20 seconds whilst sticking in more Easystart till it was hot enough to run on diesel. An engine running on Easystart sounds truly unhappy.

 

..............Dave

44 minutes ago, sirweste said:

You're asking someone you've never met to create a large fireball / explosion, almost certainly causing some sort of personal injury...

oops, sorry,  forgot to put the smiley and the disclaimer in that post.

 

...............Dave

[roland elsdon]

Our first boat had a a d3152 perk under the back deck. It had the electric heater, and starting was OK even in the winter of 82. We had one issue with it though it dropped a valve because of a horizontal air filter getting water in. The noise an rough running was a bit similar to the noise of yours, and it used to surge, until I re ground the relevant inlet valve. 

[bizzard]

We used to brew our own fuel for our control line model aircraft which used diesel engines. Although firms like Keil-Kraft brewed fuel,  ether could be bought over the counter at chemists in those days, as could Dr Collis Browns chlorodine for tummy ache. We mixed it in dads shed with caster oil. I can't remember the ratio but we always overdid the ether for more power.  Once we were nearly put to sleep with the fumes, and staggered out of the shed like zombies as high as a kite, trying to avoid mum who was outside wringing the washing through the mangle in the garden. We flew persuit flying with two planes flying the circle with crepe paper streamers streaming behind them. The idea was to chop off your oponants streamers with your propeller as close as possible to the aircraft. My engine was an ED Racer of 2cc, although the Oliver engines were better but more expensive. Sirweste could shove a couple of gallons in his fuel tank to mix with the diesel, but the ratio is pretty crucial.

[sirweste]

Ok so I think it’s perhaps the lift pump. I’ve had the dish off and cleaned it out. 

Taken the fuel filter off and got the number so I can get a new one tomorrow. 

 

Figured id see if removing everything and having a bit of a clean has sorted things. First step was to prime the bowl with the lift pumps manual lever but it doesn’t pump any liquid through. Which I assume isn’t normal?

[bizzard]

6 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Ok so I think it’s perhaps the lift pump. I’ve had the dish off and cleaned it out. 

Taken the fuel filter off and got the number so I can get a new one tomorrow. 

 

Figured id see if removing everything and having a bit of a clean has sorted things. First step was to prime the bowl with the lift pumps manual lever but it doesn’t pump any liquid through. Which I assume isn’t normal?

Try turningthe engine round a bit, the pumps lever needs to be on the back of the cam for the lever to work properly.

Edited September 5, 2018 by bizzard

[sirweste]

Ok ta. Will do that now

Nope no different, after cranking it’s now slowly dripping into the bowl though 

[bizzard]

3 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Ok ta. Will do that now

Nope no different, after cranking it’s now slowly dripping into the bowl though 

Have you put the hat back on the pump

[cereal tiller]

36 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Ok so I think it’s perhaps the lift pump. I’ve had the dish off and cleaned it out. 

Taken the fuel filter off and got the number so I can get a new one tomorrow. 

 

Figured id see if removing everything and having a bit of a clean has sorted things. First step was to prime the bowl with the lift pumps manual lever but it doesn’t pump any liquid through. Which I assume isn’t normal?

Does the Lift Pump have a Filter Screen under it's Lid?when dirty they can be difficult to see.

[sirweste]

The hat on the pump...off to google that. 

I removed the glass bowl from the lift pump, cleaned the hunk out of the bottom of the bowl. There wasn’t a screen that I could feel no

 

 

Tried the engine in 3 different positions and still no pumping from manual lever, but like I say the dripping does increase after cranking the engine. 

 

Cheers for the replies. Will try to get a pump tomorrow, but it’s likely i’ll Just have to order it from the internets

[bizzard]

6 minutes ago, sirweste said:

The hat on the pump...off to google that. 

I removed the glass bowl from the lift pump, cleaned the hunk out of the bottom of the bowl. There wasn’t a screen that I could feel no

 

 

Tried the engine in 3 different positions and still no pumping from manual lever, but like I say the dripping does increase after cranking the engine. 

 

Cheers for the replies. Will try to get a pump tomorrow, but it’s likely i’ll Just have to order it from the internets

Different pump than what I thought. Those cheese head body screws on the pump might need tightening. 

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Looks like there is a lot of diesel dripping / spitting  around that engine from the lift pump or pipe unions etc, it sounds to me like there is a small leak at a joint or filter or pump etc. I would clean every part with dry paper towel and check every nut is tight throughout the fuel system.

There has to be a leak somewhere with all that diesel visible

 

[Karen Lea Rainey]

Also surely if the lift pump was completely shot surely when the burst of easy start fuel was used up the engine would just cut out again.

I thought the problem was that the engine needed easy start permanently to start the engine

[dmr]

1 hour ago, bizzard said:

Different pump than what I thought. Those cheese head body screws on the pump might need tightening. 

 

Yup, the pump on my modern JD3 is very similar to that and those screws did coming loose with a bit of fuel getting out. BUT later I had some rough running and found that the fuel return line was almost blocked. Once I fixed that the engine ran well and the pump stopped leaking. Check the return line for blockage.   but its still most likely dirty filters...change at least every 600 hours!

 

..............Dave

 

[sirweste]

Checked the body screws all were tight, only managed to get something like a 1/16th of a turn on them. 

Lever still doesnt pump more than the drips seen in the video.

Will check the return tonight. 

 

Questions:

Which return? High pressure side, so from the injectors back to the filter housing?

Is there anything that might catch me out when ordering a new lift pump?

People keep saying filterS, I can only find one filter...am I missing something?

 

11 hours ago, Karen Lea Rainey said:

Also surely if the lift pump was completely shot surely when the burst of easy start fuel was used up the engine would just cut out again.

I thought the problem was that the engine needed easy start permanently to start the engine

I don't think it's "completely shot", as you can see from the vid it still drips oil through, as mentioned previously the dripping increases when cranking.

I don't know why you thought the engine permanently needs easy start to get going? I've never said that, it starts fine.

[sirweste]

Lift pumps are a bit of a nightmare! There's shed loads of em! 

Couldnt see a number on mine anywhere, does anyone know where the part number would be stamped?