A Sensible Move From the Broads Authority

[Guest]

The BSS themselves acknowledge that alarms cannot always be fitted in a way that fullfills the instructions 100%

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

 

But if the placement directions are difficult to meet on your boat, these are the 'best practice' points

Try to place the alarm:

in living quarters between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from the appliance
in living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head
before fixing, test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat (or buy an additional alarm)

 

Presumably this will form the basis of their check

Edited September 3, 2018 by MJG

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I find that difficult to accept.  I can think of many instances where the siting of an alarm might be considered an eyesore by the owners, but not that they can not be fitted.

 

(Still think it shouldn't be added to the BSS though.)

This is the requirments from http://www.kiddesafetyeurope.co.uk/Documents/2530-7202-02_7CO(Caravans).pdf In the literature they also say boats

[StephenA]

"Away from drafts such as doors and windows" ... .pretty hard to do on a lot of canal boats.

[Naughty Cal]

12 hours ago, StephenA said:

"Away from drafts such as doors and windows" ... .pretty hard to do on a lot of canal boats.

Does your narrowboat not have any bulkheads?

[Robbo]

18 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is the requirments from http://www.kiddesafetyeurope.co.uk/Documents/2530-7202-02_7CO(Caravans).pdf In the literature they also say boats

Those are recommendations not requirements.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Naughty Cal said:

Does your narrowboat not have any bulkheads?

Yes but I only have 2 internal doors, 1 on the bathroom and one on the bedroom, the bedroom one has a 2" gap at the bottom and probably 3" at the top.

 

[sirweste]

This in my opinion, is exactly the same as Marple's railings. Pointless exercise, removing freedom of choice to determine your own acceptable risk levels.

I compete at Mountain Bike racing, if the organiser mandates that I must wear body protection I get reyt annoyed. 

[Momac]

On 02/09/2018 at 18:14, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

 

So in what way does a CO alarm comply with that? 

As an example of compliance with the BSS statement.........

If a CO alarm prevents a death it also prevents potential harm to the rescue and emergency  services and to surviving relatives dealing with the deceased and  who will be exposed to potential harm in the form of stress related issues . This could include members of the  waterways workforce .

 

There have been  deaths in recent years due to CO on petrol engined boats . I recall one was when an engine was left running and the exhaust fumes were blown int the boat. Another where a faulty exhaust from a fitted generator caused CO inside the boat killing  a woman an a child. These deaths could potentially have been prevented by a CO alarm alerting the victims. Bear in mind a petrol engined boat or generator could be run near your diesel engined boat and cause a CO build up. Also a faulty gas appliance or blocked ventilation plus use of a gas appliance or use of any fuel burning appliance could cause a CO build up.

 

I think a smoke alarm and a CO alarm should be mandatory as being functional at the time of the BSS test and maintained at all times as with all other BSS requirements . The appropriate standard for the alarm should be indicated in the BSS requirement. These alarms are not particularly expensive items costing about £20 for a CO alarm and lasting 7 years and smoke alarms costing less than £10 . The alarm in each case may be tested by pressing a test button and also often by observing for an occasional blinking green diode. This takes a minute to do and should not be a reason to add a charge to the BSS examination fee. It is easy to test the alarms yourself once in a while.  Among other boating costs I suggest the expense should not be considered  a barrier.

 

Fitting a CO alarm takes no work at all - it may sit on a shelf. Smoke alarms come with self adhesive pads to stick them to the ceiling.

 

I do feel the British Standard for CO alarms lacks clarity as some alarms suitable on  motorhomes and caravans  may not be certified as suitable on boats  despite all falling under the same standard. The boat certified alarms do not seem to be any more costly - more a matter that the maker has not sought boat certification.

I have a smoke alarm and a CO alarm  in my house too.  I am guessing the objectors to such alarms do not?

 

 

As for life jackets ................................ let's leave that for some other time .

 

 

 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

38 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I have a smoke alarm and a CO alarm  in my house too.  I am guessing the objectors to such alarms do not?

We too have CO alarms, but I strongly object to the BSS adding them as a mandatory item - it is pure empire building, and is not covered by their stated aims.

 

I would rather they add a fiver to the test price and give free CO alarms to the 40% of boats that don't already have them installed, rather than start extending the BSS scope.

[Momac]

15 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

We too have CO alarms, but I strongly object to the BSS adding them as a mandatory item - it is pure empire building, and is not covered by their stated aims.

I respect the views of those who object but we don't all  have to agree .

 

Nor do i wish to fund supply of  alarms for other peoples boats . It seems to me some people would object to using  a CO alarm  even if  it should be  supplied free of charge. As i said the cost is small and no fitting is required so cost cannot be the deterrent.

 

If everyone had already voluntarily fitted a CO alarm there would be no need for the BSS to consider it .

 

 

[StephenA]

22 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Does your narrowboat not have any bulkheads?

 

It has a "bulkhead" between the kitchen and the bedroom - it has large cupboard in the kitchen and a smaller one with a book case under it in the main bedroom. There is a door (with gaps above and below it)  that opens flush along the side of the cupboard... and that's it until the end of the cabin at the back of the boat.

 

Front open plan area has 4 hopper windows and a central front door with windows on either side of it... so there is nowhere in the front cabin/kitchen where we can put the detector and meet the requirements on distance from CO sources and also to keep it away from windows /  curtains etc. I'm sure that there are a lot of boats on the canals who will face the same problem.   Middle cabin has 3 hopper windows and the back cabin has 2.

 

So how many CO detectors and where do they go? That's the problem with the suggested BSS regs at the moment - they are too vague and open to interpretation.

 

Do people know how reliable a CO detector is if its left on an unheated boat over winter where it gets quite cold?

 

[Robbo]

1 hour ago, StephenA said:

 

It has a "bulkhead" between the kitchen and the bedroom - it has large cupboard in the kitchen and a smaller one with a book case under it in the main bedroom. There is a door (with gaps above and below it)  that opens flush along the side of the cupboard... and that's it until the end of the cabin at the back of the boat.

 

Front open plan area has 4 hopper windows and a central front door with windows on either side of it... so there is nowhere in the front cabin/kitchen where we can put the detector and meet the requirements on distance from CO sources and also to keep it away from windows /  curtains etc. I'm sure that there are a lot of boats on the canals who will face the same problem.   Middle cabin has 3 hopper windows and the back cabin has 2.

 

So how many CO detectors and where do they go? That's the problem with the suggested BSS regs at the moment - they are too vague and open to interpretation.

 

Do people know how reliable a CO detector is if its left on an unheated boat over winter where it gets quite cold?

 

My CO detector goes on the ceiling, plenty of available spaces.   There not requirements, they are recommendations!   The BSS also has suggestions of where you can put it.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

Edited September 5, 2018 by Robbo

[Naughty Cal]

11 minutes ago, Robbo said:

My CO detector goes on the ceiling, plenty of available spaces.   There not requirements, they are recommendations!   The BSS also has suggestions of where you can put it.

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/stay-safe/carbon-monoxide-(co)/placing-co-alarms/

Some people would still argue that they couldn't meet those reccomendations just to be awkward.

 

If we can find two suitable places on our little 25ft boat then I am damned sure that those with much larger boats can find suitable locations as well if they wish to do so.

11 hours ago, MartynG said:

I respect the views of those who object but we don't all  have to agree .

 

Nor do i wish to fund supply of  alarms for other peoples boats . It seems to me some people would object to using  a CO alarm  even if  it should be  supplied free of charge. As i said the cost is small and no fitting is required so cost cannot be the deterrent.

 

If everyone had already voluntarily fitted a CO alarm there would be no need for the BSS to consider it .

 

 

On all of those points I agree with you.

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Naughty Cal said:

Some people would still argue that they couldn't meet those reccomendations just to be awkward.

Well your not likey on a narrow boat to meet the recommendations, but only a stupid person not get one.

[Naughty Cal]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

Well your not likey on a narrow boat to meet the recommendations, but only a stupid person not get one.

Hardly seems difficult to achieve:

 

Snippet from the BSS recommendations:

 

"But if the placement directions are difficult to meet on your boat, these are the 'best practice' points:

 

Try to place the alarm:

• in living quarters between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from the appliance
• in living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
• in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head
• before fixing, test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat (or buy an additional alarm)"

 

[MtB]

14 hours ago, MartynG said:

As for life jackets ................................ let's leave that for some other time .

 

Why? 

 

Is the principle not exactly the same?

 

Please explain why CO alarms should be mandatory but not life jackets, as this seems highly relevant. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why? 

 

Is the principle not exactly the same?

 

Please explain why CO alarms should be mandatory but not life jackets, as this seems highly relevant. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

CO can affect guests on your boat so their is a TP concern. 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

CO can affect guests on your boat so their is a TP concern. 

 

Guests are just as likely to fall in though, Shirley!

 

[Phil Ambrose]

On 02/09/2018 at 18:34, Naughty Cal said:

Checking if an alarm is fitted is hardly a taxing process. It doesn't really generate much if any extra work so not sure how it is going to keep anyone in a job.

I can see it now, Examiner asks where CO alarm is and boat owner says " it's over there " yeah that's a lot of work.

Phil 

[Robbo]

1 minute ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Guests are just as likely to fall in though, Shirley!

 

But it’s their personal choice and obvious when they do fall in.  CO isn’t obvious.

[MtB]

29 minutes ago, Robbo said:

But it’s their personal choice and obvious when they do fall in.  CO isn’t obvious.

 

I thought this was all about removing personal choice. Presumably you support mandatory CO detectors in house too, in fact in ANY situation where fossil fuels are burned.

 

There is also a case of CO poisoning caused by an electric storage heater. How about that then!

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why? 

 

Is the principle not exactly the same?

 

Please explain why CO alarms should be mandatory but not life jackets, as this seems highly relevant. 

 

Thanks.

 

 

Co can affect the boat moored next to you.

You falling in without a Life Jacket doesn't.

[sirweste]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Co can affect the boat moored next to you.

You falling in without a Life Jacket doesn't.

Yes, and it's up to that boat if they want to take the precaution of having a detector....which is exactly the same as them choosing to wear life jackets or not. 

 

[ditchcrawler]

4 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Hardly seems difficult to achieve:

 

Snippet from the BSS recommendations:

 

"But if the placement directions are difficult to meet on your boat, these are the 'best practice' points:

 

Try to place the alarm:

• in living quarters between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from the appliance
• in living quarters fix alarms high up on a wall, but at least 150mm from the ceiling and where the indicator lights can be seen
• in sleeping quarters have the alarm in the "breathing zone", i.e. near the bed head
• before fixing, test that you can hear an alarm from any position in the boat (or buy an additional alarm)"

 

It doesn't matter how easy it is to comply with the recommendations, the problem is if examiner "A" thinks they should be elsewhere and then 4 years later "B" has a different view.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, sirweste said:

Yes, and it's up to that boat if they want to take the precaution of having a detector....which is exactly the same as them choosing to wear life jackets or not. 

 

No it is not the same.

 

You are jeopardising the 3rd party if you produce CO, by having your own alarm it tells you to stop / switch off the offending appliance.

 

By your logic you shouldn't need to have fire extinguishers - if you set light to another boat you'd rely on them to have their own extinguishers.

 

What a selfish attitude and not one I would have expected from a member of this forum.