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A Sensible Move From the Broads Authority


Naughty Cal

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4 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

As the Broads operate under the auspices of the BSS, this is the consultation that has been discussed on here and is 'generally viewed' to be outside of the BSS remit and an infringement of personal liberties - I DISAGREE and support the move.

C&RT will also (by default) implement the Co Alarms if the BSS consultation gets a positive response.

 

Quote from the article A consultation has started into the measure, which - if introduced - would make it mandatory for boats to be fitted with the alarms from January 1, 2019.

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11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As the Broads operate under the auspices of the BSS, this is the consultation that has been discussed on here and is 'generally viewed' to be outside of the BSS remit and an infringement of personal liberties

Was that a different thread to the one I read where a lot of concern was raised about the vagueness of the proposals (the thing about doors and distances for example) and the obvious problem of examiners putting their own interpretation on the rules and refusing to issue a certificate until you do what they want.

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6 minutes ago, StephenA said:

Was that a different thread to the one I read where a lot of concern was raised about the vagueness of the proposals (the thing about doors and distances for example) and the obvious problem of examiners putting their own interpretation on the rules and refusing to issue a certificate until you do what they want.

Example of one of many posts :

 

This is what the BSS “mission statement” says on its front page:

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

 

So in what way does a CO alarm comply with that? I suggest it represents massive “mission creep”. If the BSS is suddenly going to be about saving ourselves from our own stupidity, where does it stop? Mandatory life jackets? Railings around trad sterns? Hard hats in tunnels? Regulating what we eat to avoid obesity?

 

 

 

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As far as I can tell from my conversation with one of the electricians who apparently acts as an advisor to the BSS office and who make suggestions as to what should be included, they just want to keep piling things into the scheme to keep themselves in work.  Why it has to be constantly tampered with is, apart from the fact that these people are empire-building, beyond me.  It astonishes me that they haven't thought about changing lock design yet - that would keep them all in jobs for years.

 

And there never has yet been a "consultation" that isn't a forgone conclusion.

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4 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Checking if an alarm is fitted is hardly a taxing process. It doesn't really generate much if any extra work so not sure how it is going to keep anyone in a job.

No. But that is not the proposal. The proposal is to check that the alarm(s)is/are a type approved for boats, to check there are sufficient number and in the correct locations. With sufficient vagueness and poor English to ensure that in a room with 5 BSS examiners, there will be 6 different opinions about what the requirement actually is.

 

You watch, it will grow arms and legs, when it comes into force despite overwhelming objection in the “consultation”.

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10 hours ago, Naughty Cal said:

Checking if an alarm is fitted is hardly a taxing process. It doesn't really generate much if any extra work so not sure how it is going to keep anyone in a job.

 

A couple of points.

 

Firstly, there is nothing preventing you fitting one in your boat if you think they are a good idea. You don’t need BSS to mandate it. 

 

Secondly, I agree with Nick. The complexities are enormous especially on a narrow boat. ‘Fitting’ implies meeting manufacturers specifications for clearances from doors, windows and cooking appliances and all these are hard to pin down without relying on personal opinion at some point, and often in a small space it will be impossible for those clearances to be met. Now what? Scrap the boat? In addition, narrow boats are long and thin so where is it best to put it? Or. Should two be required? Or three? And given that batteries go flat, next the bss office will be planning to make them all hard wired I predict. This is probably the sort of thing Nick has in mind. 

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8 hours ago, nicknorman said:

No. But that is not the proposal. The proposal is to check that the alarm(s)is/are a type approved for boats, to check there are sufficient number and in the correct locations. With sufficient vagueness and poor English to ensure that in a room with 5 BSS examiners, there will be 6 different opinions about what the requirement actually is.

Which is what I basically said in 

 

 

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Our caravan has to have a CO alarm as it is 'mandated' by the trade body that all uk caravan manufacturers are members of.

 

The slight problem is that it is fitted (by the caravan manufacturer when new) completely contrary to the instructions in that it is way too close to a CO generating appliance (the hob/oven) and it's right by a door.

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3 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A couple of points.

 

Firstly, there is nothing preventing you fitting one in your boat if you think they are a good idea. You don’t need BSS to mandate it. 

 

Secondly, I agree with Nick. The complexities are enormous especially on a narrow boat. ‘Fitting’ implies meeting manufacturers specifications for clearances from doors, windows and cooking appliances and all these are hard to pin down without relying on personal opinion at some point, and often in a small space it will be impossible for those clearances to be met. Now what? Scrap the boat? In addition, narrow boats are long and thin so where is it best to put it? Or. Should two be required? Or three? And given that batteries go flat, next the bss office will be planning to make them all hard wired I predict. This is probably the sort of thing Nick has in mind. 

4 is a good Number for my 70 Footer ,was next to a Petrol Engined boat in a Thames Lock and all of them went off when he started the Engine.

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32 minutes ago, Naughty Cal said:

Have as many as you see fit. 

 

We have two on our 25ft boat which some would probably say is overkill. However we are very aware that we moor in an area with lots of big petrol engined boats. We would rather be Safe then sorry. 

Absolutely agree. We have a CO alarm too. But agreeing they are a good thing and having one, is not the same as agreeing that a slightly dodgy quango should include their fitting on a list of mandatory checks. Especially when the concept is so far removed from the original terms of reference of the BSS.

 

In general I don’t like Nanny State saving me from my own stupidity. Promote them, educate and persuade by all means. But don’t mandate that some chap perhaps with minimal qualification and (in some cases) minimal intelligence can come on my boat and dictate whether or not he is satisfied with the type and number of alarm fitted and its location.

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41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You've changed you tune!!

 

Earlier you were all for mandating them, in which case it is for the body mandating to say how many.

Not really. If it says it is mandatory to have one fitted then there is nothing stopping you having more if you see fit.

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I have to admit I don't maintain our smoke alarms other than I press of the button occasionally. Yesterday, mid afternoon, no cooking taking place and no fire etc, the smoke alarm sounded. Took it down and gave it a good old blow through and all seems well just reminded me that I ought to clean out the alarms now and then. I have now done the others, so should be okay for another year or so!!

I'm  surprised alarms are not, at least, strongly advised. Not to have them installed is a bit of 'risky business'.

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25 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

I have to admit I don't maintain our smoke alarms other than I press of the button occasionally. Yesterday, mid afternoon, no cooking taking place and no fire etc, the smoke alarm sounded. Took it down and gave it a good old blow through and all seems well just reminded me that I ought to clean out the alarms now and then. I have now done the others, so should be okay for another year or so!!

I'm  surprised alarms are not, at least, strongly advised. Not to have them installed is a bit of 'risky business'.

Indeed. And given the very modest cost of the units, a risk which really shouldn't need to be made.

 

There is no excuse for not having them fitted. They alert you not just to problems from your own boat but from those moored around you as well.

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6 hours ago, MJG said:

Our caravan has to have a CO alarm as it is 'mandated' by the trade body that all uk caravan manufacturers are members of.

 

The slight problem is that it is fitted (by the caravan manufacturer when new) completely contrary to the instructions in that it is way too close to a CO generating appliance (the hob/oven) and it's right by a door.

But its not mandatory for you to keep it or for someone to tell you you need two or need to move it/ them every 4 years to a new position

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17 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

But its not mandatory for you to keep it or for someone to tell you you need two or need to move it/ them every 4 years to a new position

Indeed, nor did I suggest it was.

 

The main point I was making was the fact that although the NCC insist one is fitted at new (and used from a NCC accredited dealer) no body pays any proper attention to how the thing is fitted. Ours is above the hob/oven closer than the instruction say it should be and right next to the main door again contrary to the instructions. This is on a 2018 caravan. Boats have the same issue in that it's difficult/impossible to fit them in the same way you would in a house, so whilst the BSS may insist they are fitted what are they going to do when they see them fitted 'incorrectly' - will they too need to turn a blind eye much like the NCC do?

Edited by MJG
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11 minutes ago, MJG said:

Indeed, nor did I suggest it was.

 

The main point I was making was the fact that although the NCC insist one is fitted at new (and used from a NCC accredited dealer) no body pays any proper attention to how the thing is fitted. Ours is above the hob/oven closer than the instruction say it should be and right next to the main door again contrary to the instructions. This is on a 2018 caravan. Boats have the same issue in that it's difficult/impossible to fit them in the same way you would in a house, so whilst the BSS may insist they are fitted what are they going to do when they see them fitted 'incorrectly' - will they too need to turn a blind eye much like the NCC do?

 

The big difference being a BSS declined on a boat means no licence, so a design of boat like your caravan example where a CO alarm can't be fitted compliantly with the instructions sure as hell will result in a BSS fail with the type of inspector who can't exercise a bit of personal judgement. 

 

Once you get the fail, there is no avenue to appeal it as the BSS inspector is technically correct. So what now? There WILL be boats that can no longer be used on the cut due to inability to fit a CO alarm, I predict. Will they have to be scrapped? Or exempted? Or what?

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18 minutes ago, MJG said:

Indeed, nor did I suggest it was.

 

The main point I was making was the fact that although the NCC insist one is fitted at new (and used from a NCC accredited dealer) no body pays any proper attention to how the thing is fitted. Ours is above the hob/oven closer than the instruction say it should be and right next to the main door again contrary to the instructions. This is on a 2018 caravan. Boats have the same issue in that it's difficult/impossible to fit them in the same way you would in a house, so whilst the BSS may insist they are fitted what are they going to do when they see them fitted 'incorrectly' - will they too need to turn a blind eye much like the NCC do?

Very similar when it was suggested that solid fuel stoves should be fitted to the same regulations as in a house and then they found out NB were too small to have one and comply.

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2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The big difference being a BSS declined on a boat means no licence, so a design of boat like your caravan example where a CO alarm can't be fitted compliantly with the instructions sure as hell will result in a BSS fail with the type of inspector who can't exercise a bit of personal judgement. 

 

Once you get the fail, there is no avenue to appeal it as the BSS inspector is technically correct. So what now? There WILL be boats that can no longer be used on the cut due to inability to fit a CO alarm, I predict. Will they have to be scrapped? Or exempted? Or what?

Well the Dog House - (for whoever owns it now) will surely fail if the non compliance with fitting instructions is applied rigidly. Because I tried and better tried to fit the the thing so that it complied 100% with the instructions and it was simply impossible. I ended up compromising as best I could, meeting the requirement as best I could. I would bet the farm it's the same in 99% of boats.

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Very similar when it was suggested that solid fuel stoves should be fitted to the same regulations as in a house and then they found out NB were too small to have one and comply.

Indeed, I noticed the clearance around our stove at home (as fitted by a HETAS installer) is way more than that on our old boat. The proximity of wood fittings too (cabin steps) would also have failed in a domestic installation.

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9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There WILL be boats that can no longer be used on the cut due to inability to fit a CO alarm, I predict.

I find that difficult to accept.  I can think of many instances where the siting of an alarm might be considered an eyesore by the owners, but not that they can not be fitted.

 

(Still think it shouldn't be added to the BSS though.)

Edited by TheBiscuits
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