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Trojan T-105 batteries


eid

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My single12v Trojan has performed splendidly for nearly 2 years. Unfortunately though, I neglected to check the electrolyte level for longer than I should. Result: the level was below the top of 4 of the 6 plates. Not much, 5mm at the most, but still... Will I have damaged it?

 

Also, how much above the plates should they be topped up to, does it do any harm to top the up to nearly the top of the battery case?

Edited by Gareth E
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14 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Also, how much above the plates should they be topped up to, does it do any harm to top the up to nearly the top of the battery case?

 

Best not to top it up that much. There WILL be a level marker of some sort in there. Did you get an instruction sheet with the battery? The level is usually hard to judge but the marker is usually about half way between the top of the plates and the top of the battery case. 

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Don't worry, I do this all the time, the section of plate that was exposed might well be dead but the rest will be fine.

 

I think Trojan use more than one design, but usually the water level is 1/4 inch below the lowest edge of the filler "tube", not that easy to judge accurately. Don't be tempted to use your finger as a dip stick ?.

 

.........Dave

 

 

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2 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

LiFePO(subscript)4 is how it should be written. But I haven't worked out how to get the subscript

LiFePO4

 

 

Put sub and /sub in square brackets before and after the 4. So {sub}4{/sub} except with square brackets. 

22 minutes ago, dmr said:

Don't be tempted to use your finger as a dip stick

It’s far more effective to use your tongue. 

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1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

My single12v Trojan has performed splendidly for nearly 2 years. Unfortunately though, I neglected to check the electrolyte level for longer than I should. Result: the level was below the top of 4 of the 6 plates. Not much, 5mm at the most, but still... Will I have damaged it?

 

Also, how much above the plates should they be topped up to, does it do any harm to top the up to nearly the top of the battery case?

The level decreases when the battery is discharged and increases when it’s recharged. Therefore if you find the level is very low and the battery is not fully charged, just put enough water in to cover the plates a bit, then fully charge, then top up to 3mm below the filler well.

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2 minutes ago, eid said:

Yes that’s the thing.

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16 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Busted!!!

 

I think what HAS been busted is the false belief that having large banks of expensive ‘leisure’ batteries is the best solution for those who don’t have regular access to a shore line. 

 

This might upset those selling leisure batteries (!), but shouldn’t really as the majotity of boaters do have regular access to a shore line, so they get regularly trickle charged up to full capacity. This will obviously make the leisure batteries last much longer than 2 years. 

 

I actually got the idea of using cheap starter batteries from other ‘off line’ boaters who have had a lot of success with them. As I said, they charge up quicker (so less engine hours) and they can deliver more current if required. They are certainly cheaper.

 

The claims that a starter battery wouid be knackered after a few months if used as a leisure battery, is simply untrue. 

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21 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This is what Relion have to say about it.

 

LiFePO4 batteries can safely charge between -20°C to 55°C (-4°F to 131°F). However, at temperatures below 0°C (32°F) the charge current must be reduced, until the temperature is >0ºC (32ºF), as follows:

1. 0°C to -10°C (32°F to 14°F) charge at 0.1C (10% of the battery capacity) 2. -10°C to -20°C (14°F to -4°F) charge at 0.05C (5% of the battery capacity)

LiFePO4 batteries do not require temperature compensation for voltage when charging at hot or cold temperatures.

 

In practice, how often are narrowboat battery temperatures below zero? Very rarely I'd say, especially if the boat has a trad stern and is "lived on" and thus heated in winter. Perhaps more of an issue for a cruiser stern boat but equally, there is less need to keep the batteries in the uninhabited part of the boat, they could instead be moved to a heated part of the boat since they don't vent nasty fumes.

Mine live under the rear step at the stern. The drive batteries will live on the swim in insulated boxes the wheelhouse is above so will be warmer

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On 26/08/2018 at 14:47, nicknorman said:

...Except lithium batteries.

Yes, I’m thinking this might be my next experiment. I’ve done some research into the fast charge but I read that it’s not very good for them. 

 

Also some of the specs I’ve seen show it still takes around 5-6 hours to fully charge them. The good thing is that they apparently don’t suffer so much from being partially charged up. 

 

They are are very pricey but as I don’t tend to use more than 20a per day I wouidn’t need a very high capacity battery. 

 

Any thoughts as to the easiest way to wire one up to charge from the alternator? I found this - is this all I’d need?

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/cyrix-battery-combiners

 

 

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16 hours ago, rowland al said:

Lol, nope, not me guv. :)

 

Actually, we don’t even have the cable/plug. I ought to buy one and a charger really as we have been known to leave the boat in a marina for a weekend. 

 

BTW. I looked at that Victron battery pack link but it doesn’t seem to show charge times (particularly in high charge mode). For me, if it cant be fully charged in an hour or two from the alternator it’s a non starter.

 

I believe even Lithium batteries are also only specified to work over a certain number of charge cycles.

Mine are 5000 then capacity is down to 80% however if you restrict the voltage to 13.8 this raises to 10000 cycles which is why I do just that

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4 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mine are 5000 then capacity is down to 80% however if you restrict the voltage to 13.8 this raises to 10000 cycles which is why I do just that

If you cycle them once every day then 10000 cycles will be 27 years,, I think I would be quite content with 5000 cycles.

 

.................Dave

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1 minute ago, dmr said:

If you cycle them once every day then 10000 cycles will be 27 years,, I think I would be quite content with 5000 cycles.

 

.................Dave

One of my neighbours  is in his late 80s.................................

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33 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Yes, I’m thinking this might be my next experiment. I’ve done some research into the fast charge but I read that it’s not very good for them. 

 

Also some of the specs I’ve seen show it still takes around 5-6 hours to fully charge them. The good thing is that they apparently don’t suffer so much from being partially charged up. 

 

They are are very pricey but as I don’t tend to use more than 20a per day I wouidn’t need a very high capacity battery. 

 

Any thoughts as to the easiest way to wire one up to charge from the alternator? I found this - is this all I’d need?

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/battery-isolators-and-combiners/cyrix-battery-combiners

 

 

If you still looking at Lithium (although with your usage they may not be that beneficial).

 

I'm looking at this system from Victron and it may be suitable for your needs as it's simpler setup to other BMS wiring's. 

 

Basically it's a BMS 12/200 - It's the BMS, but has 3 connections.  One for the LiFePO4 battery, one for the alternator/engine starter battery and one for the loads or other charging equipment like solar.   It combines your batteries together when charging so you don't need any split charge relays.    The only downside is that if you have any loads that are grounded to the hull (they should be none, but a car radio with aerial mounted on the hull probably is) then you'll need a DC-DC converter for these items.   The smallest battery Victron do is 60ah with a charge rate upto 30amp.   You will be looking at around £1100 for the battery and BMS tho.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-BMS-12-200-EN.pdf

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15 minutes ago, Robbo said:

If you still looking at Lithium (although with your usage they may not be that beneficial).

 

I'm looking at this system from Victron and it may be suitable for your needs as it's simpler setup to other BMS wiring's. 

 

Basically it's a BMS 12/200 - It's the BMS, but has 3 connections.  One for the LiFePO4 battery, one for the alternator/engine starter battery and one for the loads or other charging equipment like solar.   It combines your batteries together when charging so you don't need any split charge relays.    The only downside is that if you have any loads that are grounded to the hull (they should be none, but a car radio with aerial mounted on the hull probably is) then you'll need a DC-DC converter for these items.   The smallest battery Victron do is 60ah with a charge rate upto 30amp.   You will be looking at around £1100 for the battery and BMS tho.

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-BMS-12-200-EN.pdf

Thanks Robbo. 

 

Yes, unfortunately expense is a large factor in this. £600 to replace 4 x leisure batteries every 2 years isn’t great either (thats what I started with years ago before trying 2 x Trojans then finally a single starter battery). 

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2 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Thanks Robbo. 

 

Yes, unfortunately expense is a large factor in this. £600 to replace 4 x leisure batteries every 2 years isn’t great either (thats what I started with years ago before trying 2 x Trojans then finally a single starter battery). 

What leisure batteries were you using at £150 each?

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10 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Thanks Robbo. 

 

Yes, unfortunately expense is a large factor in this. £600 to replace 4 x leisure batteries every 2 years isn’t great either (thats what I started with years ago before trying 2 x Trojans then finally a single starter battery). 

Forgot that Relion may be a good option for you..   They have the BMS onboard so are meant to be just drop-in..   Note that the max discharge is 100amp even for the big batteries.     The reason I'm not looking at these, is that I need 3 in Parallel for my needs and there was issues with doing that when I researched it a little more.

 

https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium

https://www.alpha-batteries.co.uk/brands/relion-batteries/

 

Here is some charging info on them..

 

Thank you for purchasing Relion Lithium Battery. We truly appreciate your business. This document is designed to aid your experience by providing information about charging, basic troubleshooting, etc. Please let us know if you have any questions.
CHARGING
_____________________________________________________________________________________
Because of the different parameters required for charging lithium ion batteries as opposed to lead acid batteries, we do not recommend using a standard lead acid charger for your RELiON Battery. Using a lead acid battery charger with lithium ion technology presents risks of damage, decreased lifespan, and overall suboptimal performance. We pride ourselves on providing the very best batteries on the market, and we want all of our customers to have the tools to get the very best performance possible. Relion Lithium chargers are specifically programmed for lithium ion technology. These chargers are manufactured by Pro Charging Systems and Progressive Dynamics, they give you both the trusted brand and confidence that your batteries will charge properly every cycle. If you already have a charger with an AGM setting this is usually appropriate or featuring adjustable settings, you will need to alter those settings to accommodate the lithium ion batteries. Each Relion Battery has a rate specifying the maximum amount of current with which it can be charged. It is important to make sure that you do not charge the battery with higher current than rated. Because of the 99% efficiency of the technology, bulk charging is normally the only stage necessary to charge our lives lithium ion battery. If your charger can be programmed to deliver constant current and charge up to 14.6V, there is no need for an absorb phase. Some chargers require both a bulk stage and an absorb stage, programmed at different voltages. In this case, you would set the bulk at 14.2V and absorb at 14.6V. RELiON lithium ion batteries need to reach between 14.4V and 14.6V to be at full charge and deliver optimal results. If your charging voltage is higher than this range and cannot be programmed to a lower voltage, it is not recommended for use with our batteries. Likewise, if your charging voltage is lower than the required 14.4V–14.6V range, your Relion Batteries will not reach full charge and thus will not perform to their full potential. If a float charge setting is necessary to program your charger, it should be set to 13.8V. However, one of the many benefits of Relion Batteries is that they lose less than 9% of their energy per year in self discharge. This allows you to come back to a nearly fully charged battery even if it has been left idle for a long period of time. Please note that for most orders, we fully charge our batteries prior to shipment for our customers’ convenience. In some cases, either due to customer request or expedited shipment, batteries are shipped at 40% charge. This is the best voltage for storage of lithium ion batteries. The 40% state of charge allows the batteries to be stored with minimal aging and self discharge. If you have any questions about charging, please do not hesitate to contact a RELiON Power Pro . We are more than happy to assist you in finding the proper charging solution to suit your needs.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
TROUBLESHOOTING and USER GUIDE
_____________________________________________________________________________________
RELiON Batteries are outfitted with a sophisticated Battery Management System (BMS) that protects against most outside factors that would normally damage a battery. The BMS provides these features:
 
• Low Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 8V
• Over Voltage Protection – Automatically disconnects at 15.8V
• Short Circuit Protection – Automatically disconnects
• Reverse Polarity Protection – Automatically disconnects
• Internal cell balancing – Automatically balances cells
• Charge Balancing – Independent balancing for batteries connected in parallel and/or series
• Series and Parallel connections - contact RELiON POWER PRO’S for these applications.
 
If your RELiON Battery is not functioning correctly, please follow these simple steps or contact a RELiON Power Pro.
First you need to determine battery voltage. Battery voltage can be read by using a standard DC volt meter. (Follow manufactures instructions and safety measures). A fully charged 12 volt battery should read 13.5 volts, an empty battery will read 12.2 volts. If your BMS engages, your battery internally disconnects and will read zero volts. Because of this, a charger will not detect a connection and will not charge the battery. This can be misinterpreted as a problem with the battery but is actually RELiON battery protection.
The first troubleshooting step to take if your BMS engages is to simply disconnect each terminal and reconnect. In many cases, this will disengage the BMS and your battery will be back to normal working condition.
For some issues, such as BMS protection against low voltage, your Relion Battery can be reenergized by applying (jumping) 12 volts to the terminals, much like jump starting a car battery, this can be easily done with jumper cables. If this does not work, it will need to be charged in parallel with another battery that has enough voltage at least 10 volts in a 12 volt battery, this allows the charger to detect a complete circuit. You can use any type of 12 volt battery. Connect your charger directly to a working 12 volt battery. Then, connect your Relion Battery in parallel (positive to positive, negative to negative) to the first battery. The Relion Battery’s BMS will reenergize, bringing the battery back up to its voltage prior to the BMS kicking in. After about 20 minutes, reconnect the charger directly to the Relion Battery, and the charging process will continue normally.
In instances of Series or Parallel Connections, your RELiON batteries must be maintained to voltages within 50 millivolts (or .05 volts) of each other. If your system gets out of balance you must charge each battery independently with a 12 volt charger. Once charging is complete, let batteries stand for 4 hours and then check voltage if the batteries voltages are not within 50 millivolts of each other… discharge higher voltage batteries down to the lowest voltage battery, this can be done with a small 12 volt light or similar discharge source. A 2 amp discharge (a single light) at 30 second intervals should reduce voltage in small increments… repeat the process as needed until all batteries voltages are within the 50 millivolt range.
Keep in mind that the batteries you purchase must be suited for your application. If the batteries are being asked to deliver beyond their capability, issues will persist. Our RELiON Power Pros are here to ensure each and every customer receives the battery (or batteries) ideal for their application. If you have any questions or concerns about your product please feel free to contact a RELiON Power Pro for assistance.

 

Edited by Robbo
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2 hours ago, rowland al said:

The claims that a starter battery wouid be knackered after a few months if used as a leisure battery, is simply untrue. 

 

This speaks a man without a 12v electric fridge, I reckon!

 

 

 

Or have you?

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2 hours ago, rowland al said:

The claims that a starter battery wouid be knackered after a few months if used as a leisure battery, is simply untrue. 

There isn't any difference between starter and leisure batteries apart from liesures tend to be bigger in size and have a different sticker on the front.   The insides are constructed the same, ie. for low DoD and high current requirements.   

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51 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This speaks a man without a 12v electric fridge, I reckon!

 

 

 

Or have you?

 

51 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This speaks a man without a 12v electric fridge, I reckon!

 

 

 

Or have you?

 

Ax mentiined earlier, I have a gas fridge (or rather I run a 3 way on gas only). I appreciate that running it on 12v/240v would hammer ANY lead acid based battery more.

 

After what Robbo has just said, it does seem as though the debate beween starter batteries and ‘domestic’ batteries is more about the label! :-/

 

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52 minutes ago, Robbo said:

There isn't any difference between starter and leisure batteries apart from liesures tend to be bigger in size and have a different sticker on the front.   The insides are constructed the same, ie. for low DoD and high current requirements.   

and ‘domestics’ are more expensive compared with equivalent capacity ‘starters’!

 

I read the caravan club conclusions about this after they cut some ‘domestics’ open.  

 

I’m sure the plate area/size thing is still a factor in all this. Obviously the more surface area the more the plates can suck in energy and give it up in one go.

 

As for thinner plates getting buckled easier I don’t know,  but it strikes me that the number of amps a starter battery has to give up when turning an engine over in the cold, ‘thinner’ plates seem to cope quite well! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, rowland al said:

and ‘domestics’ are more expensive compared with equivalent capacity ‘starters’!

 

I read the caravan club conclusions about this after they cut some ‘domestics’ open.  

 

I’m sure the plate area/size thing is still a factor in all this. Obviously the more surface area the more the plates can suck in energy and give it up in one go.

 

As for thinner plates getting buckled easier I don’t know,  but it strikes me that the number of amps a starter battery has to give up when turning an engine over in the cold, ‘thinner’ plates seem to cope quite well! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Another possible issue is plate construction. Something is usually added (alloyed) to the lead plates to strengthen them. Historically, and in Trojans etc, this will be Antimony. More recently starter batteries have used Calcium as this reduces water loss and allows the batteries to be sold as"maintenance free". I have read that Calcium does not cope as well with deeper cycling. It is possible that some leisure batteries have a similar plate thickness to starters but might still use Antimony which will give them more cycles.

 

Don't believe anything the Caravan people say, they produced a "technical" article claiming that the notorious Elecsols were good.

 

...............Dave

 

 

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