Trojan T-105 batteries

[Tony Brooks]

Just to repeat what I have often said before in this sort of topic. I have 3 x Exide 115 Ah leisure batteries fitted 9th July 2012 and they are still serving our needs. They have never been topped up or needed it and apart from what the solar controller may try to do have never been equalised. These were not £80 cheapies but cost about over £100 each. You tend to get what you pay for but I am not convinced a cheaper set would not have lasted nearly as long as these. I could not justify the cost of Trojans.

[Robbo]

29 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just to repeat what I have often said before in this sort of topic. I have 3 x Exide 115 Ah leisure batteries fitted 9th July 2012 and they are still serving our needs. They have never been topped up or needed it and apart from what the solar controller may try to do have never been equalised. These were not £80 cheapies but cost about over £100 each. You tend to get what you pay for but I am not convinced a cheaper set would not have lasted nearly as long as these. I could not justify the cost of Trojans.

I got my Trojans about a year later and they cost me just over £100 each at the time.   Of course I needed a even number so needed an extra battery than you.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Robbo said:

I got my Trojans about a year later and they cost me just over £100 each at the time.   Of course I needed a even number so needed an extra battery than you.

 

If I had the means of doing a manual equalise at a decent voltage I might be tempted by Trojans but they would never fit my battery case that is welded into the cruiser stern deck so am utterly amazed at the Exides. Still battery testing, topping up and changing is a piece of cake for me, just lift a small deck board.

[mrsmelly]

3 hours ago, rowland al said:

I thoght starter batteries have more plate surface area which is why they can give uo more amps and suck in more amps over a short period. They tend to have thinner plates as a result though, hence the fears about warped plates. 

When I bought my last boat it had six 2 volt batteries with ten mil plates and weighed 54 kilos each. The previous owner told me proudly that he charged fo a couple of hours a day and could watch telly every evening till the inverter shut down due to the batteries going flat. I used them as was for a few days and charged from engine and a gennie whilst tied up. I had them checked by an electrical guy and four were good one was iffy and the other a bit past it iirc. I rang some so called battery suppliers who mainly couldn't get them or I would be a special order etc at fourteen billion pounds per battery. I took em off and had a proper re wire for four cheapo 12 volt leisure batteries and had them fitted. They lasted me three years and I sold that boat and bought this one. The local pikey was well chuffed when I got him round to take the 2 volt batteries away as he will have got a few shillings for them no doubt. The next set of batteries I weigh in will be the first! Always absolutely always cheap sealed batteries fit, use, bin, replace. Life realy realy is too short to pee about with batteries.

[eid]

3 hours ago, dmr said:

Yes, its the plate area that gives high current, but plate thickness that gives lots of deep discharge cycles, so starters have lots of thin plates and Trojans have fewer but thicker plates. Better batteries usually have bigger cells but I don't fully understand the advantage, though having more space at the bottom to collect the "sheddings" is a factor. The 12volts Trojans have an inferior cycle life to the 6v Trojans, and proper 2v Tractions have huge cells.

Warped plates will be a failure but its just loss of material from thin plates that usually defines battery life.

 

................Dave

 

38 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Just to repeat what I have often said before in this sort of topic. I have 3 x Exide 115 Ah leisure batteries fitted 9th July 2012 and they are still serving our needs. They have never been topped up or needed it and apart from what the solar controller may try to do have never been equalised. These were not £80 cheapies but cost about over £100 each. You tend to get what you pay for but I am not convinced a cheaper set would not have lasted nearly as long as these. I could not justify the cost of Trojans.

 

 Considering the above, I wonder if anyone has compared the plate thickness between different FLA batteries (eg. exides and cheapo's)?

 

 

7 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I got my Trojans about a year later and they cost me just over £100 each at the time.   Of course I needed a even number so needed an extra battery than you.

 

The Exides are still £100 while the Trojans are now £144.

[bizzard]

4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If I had the means of doing a manual equalise at a decent voltage I might be tempted by Trojans but they would never fit my battery case that is welded into the cruiser stern deck so am utterly amazed at the Exides. Still battery testing, topping up and changing is a piece of cake for me, just lift a small deck board.

Exide's have always been good and indeed so were Dagenites.

[eid]

3 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

When I bought my last boat it had six 2 volt batteries with ten mil plates and weighed 54 kilos each. The previous owner told me proudly that he charged fo a couple of hours a day and could watch telly every evening till the inverter shut down due to the batteries going flat. I used them as was for a few days and charged from engine and a gennie whilst tied up. I had them checked by an electrical guy and four were good one was iffy and the other a bit past it iirc. I rang some so called battery suppliers who mainly couldn't get them or I would be a special order etc at fourteen billion pounds per battery. I took em off and had a proper re wire for four cheapo 12 volt leisure batteries and had them fitted. They lasted me three years and I sold that boat and bought this one. The local pikey was well chuffed when I got him round to take the 2 volt batteries away as he will have got a few shillings for them no doubt. The next set of batteries I weigh in will be the first! Always absolutely always cheap sealed batteries fit, use, bin, replace. Life realy realy is too short to pee about with batteries.

 How often and long do you charge them? Did you do any equalisation charges?

Edited August 26, 2018 by eid
words

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, eid said:

 How often and long do you charge them?

I charge every day without fail unless I leave boat for a holiday then I leave them fully charged and all switched off or in a marina on trickle charge. I charge most days till full or near full judging by tail current etc. I have travel power which I use for washer etc etc. My last boat didn't have travel power but I charged that daily and had a period of time on hook up with that boat. Battery life is mainly down to treatment in my findings but whatever there is no way I will ever buggered about unscrewing lids, checking each cell and putting water in, others of course do as they wish, some even polish their brass when the batteries are topped up ? Another handy thing about cheapos is they are available at a million places with ease.

[eid]

2 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I charge every day without fail unless I leave boat for a holiday then I leave them fully charged and all switched off or in a marina on trickle charge. I charge most days till full or near full judging by tail current etc. I have travel power which I use for washer etc etc. My last boat didn't have travel power but I charged that daily and had a period of time on hook up with that boat. Battery life is mainly down to treatment in my findings but whatever there is no way I will ever buggered about unscrewing lids, checking each cell and putting water in, others of course do as they wish, some even polish their brass when the batteries are topped up ? Another handy thing about cheapos is they are available at a million places with ease.

Thanks.

What would be a typical reading for tail current?

 

Can you (or anyone) recommend an ammeter? I assume I want the clamp type?

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, eid said:

Thanks.

What would be a typical reading for tail current?

 

Can you (or anyone) recommend an ammeter? I assume I want the clamp type?

I use a bm2 as its easy to fit, never even look at the state of charge bit at the end but it's good for monitoring all ins and outs and charging. I generally charge till 14.4 at around 2 amps but sometimes switch off at 14.3 as its all a play off of diesel and engine costs re battery replacement anyway. We at present move a few hours per day so keeping batteries well charged.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, eid said:

Thanks.

What would be a typical reading for tail current?

 

Can you (or anyone) recommend an ammeter? I assume I want the clamp type?

You are asking all the right questions - ie the ones difficult to answer! A lead acid battery is never quite fully charged. The current gradually decreases. When you think it is fully charged, had you carried on charging for another hour the current would have decreased slightly and the battery would be slightly more charged. But it is a thing of diminishing return so at some point you have to say “it’s fully charged”. There is no “right answer” to this. Some say 2% of capacity, some say 1%, some say more or less. Personally I think 1% is as close to fully charged as no matter. But it takes an hour or two to get from 2% to 1% and you have added hardly any charge.

 

What a lot of people do is charge to perhaps 4-5 % daily, then once a week do a long charge and try to get it nearer 1%.

 

By 1% of capacity I mean that if you have battery capacity of 100AH, it would be 1A.

 

As to measuring current, you can get a DC clamp meter for around £30. They are not very accurate at low currents below a couple of amps, but that might be OK. But it is a hassle as it means you have to put the thing on the right lead in order to measure it. 

 

Alternatively you can permanently install a shunt-based battery monitor like a NASA BM2 (around £100) or Victron BMV 700 series (around£130 depending on model). These give ease of reading current and count AH in and out. They also give an approximation to State of Charge if they are set up correctly.

 

If you want to stick with the clamp meter idea, the UNI-t UT203 is popular. Be very careful when buying a different model that it does DC current. Plenty only do AC current and that is no use to you.

[eid]

54 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I use a bm2 as its easy to fit, never even look at the state of charge bit at the end but it's good for monitoring all ins and outs and charging. I generally charge till 14.4 at around 2 amps but sometimes switch off at 14.3 as its all a play off of diesel and engine costs re battery replacement anyway. We at present move a few hours per day so keeping batteries well charged.

Thanks again. The BM-2 certainly looks like a good bit of kit. Does the smartguage do the same thing?

 

46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

You are asking all the right questions - ie the ones difficult to answer! A lead acid battery is never quite fully charged. The current gradually decreases. When you think it is fully charged, had you carried on charging for another hour the current would have decreased slightly and the battery would be slightly more charged. But it is a thing of diminishing return so at some point you have to say “it’s fully charged”. There is no “right answer” to this. Some say 2% of capacity, some say 1%, some say more or less. Personally I think 1% is as close to fully charged as no matter. But it takes an hour or two to get from 2% to 1% and you have added hardly any charge.

 

What a lot of people do is charge to perhaps 4-5 % daily, then once a week do a long charge and try to get it nearer 1%.

 

By 1% of capacity I mean that if you have battery capacity of 100AH, it would be 1A.

 

As to measuring current, you can get a DC clamp meter for around £30. They are not very accurate at low currents below a couple of amps, but that might be OK. But it is a hassle as it means you have to put the thing on the right lead in order to measure it. 

 

Alternatively you can permanently install a shunt-based battery monitor like a NASA BM2 (around £100) or Victron BMV 700 series (around£130 depending on model). These give ease of reading current and count AH in and out. They also give an approximation to State of Charge if they are set up correctly.

 

If you want to stick with the clamp meter idea, the UNI-t UT203 is popular. Be very careful when buying a different model that it does DC current. Plenty only do AC current and that is no use to you.

 

Just to be certain I understand, when you say 1A (in bold) you mean the ammeter will show that the charge current has gone down to 1A and this means your are 99% charged (on a 100AH battery)? If not, how are you getting your % SOC measurement?

 

Thanks for all the ammeter suggestions.

 

edit: sorry, I think you may have already answered the above: AH in/out counting.

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by eid

[Phil.]

1 minute ago, eid said:

Thanks again. The BM-2 certainly looks like a good bit of kit. Does the smartguage do the same thing?

 

 

Just to be certain I understand, when you say 1A (in bold) you mean the ammeter will show that the charge current has gone down to 1A and this means your are 99% charged (on a 100AH battery)? If not, how are you getting your % SOC measurement?

 

Thanks for all the ammeter suggestions. I think I'll go with one of the battery monitor types.

 

 

 

As others have said, measuring the tail current will let you know when the battery is nearly fully charged. The isssue is whether continuing to burn diesel for one or two hours, is worth the cost to get from 2% down to 1%. As for the smartguage, this works differently, and will provide you with a visual reading of when it accesses that the batteries are at 100%. The reality is that even when Smartguage says they are, they won't be fully charged. The benefit you have is that you have solar charging, and even after you switch off your engine or genny, the solar will continue putting charge into the batteries. This is how I manage my bank. I run the engine on a non moving day until the smartguage gets to about 90%, and then allow the solar to finish it off. This can take another four hours before the solar finally goes into float mode.

[eid]

4 minutes ago, Phil. said:

As others have said, measuring the tail current will let you know when the battery is nearly fully charged. The isssue is whether continuing to burn diesel for one or two hours, is worth the cost to get from 2% down to 1%. As for the smartguage, this works differently, and will provide you with a visual reading of when it accesses that the batteries are at 100%. The reality is that even when Smartguage says they are, they won't be fully charged. The benefit you have is that you have solar charging, and even after you switch off your engine or genny, the solar will continue putting charge into the batteries. This is how I manage my bank. I run the engine on a non moving day until the smartguage gets to about 90%, and then allow the solar to finish it off. This can take another four hours before the solar finally goes into float mode.

 

I realised this morning that I ought to run my engine in the morning so that the bulk charging gets done and, like you say, the solar can finish it off slowly. It's no wonder my batteries are dying as I haven't really had a routine at all. ?

 

I think the only thing I'm uncertain about (there are probably lots more actually) is how the measurement of the tail current relates to the state of charge. For instance, if the tail current is at 1 amp, what does this tell me about the SOC percentage, and is it relative to the number of total AH in my battery bank? I think nicknorman may have already told me this, but I'm not sure.

 

Thank you all for your patience. It's only by asking all these probably simple questions that I can get a grip on things.

[Neil2]

1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

When I bought my last boat it had six 2 volt batteries with ten mil plates and weighed 54 kilos each. The previous owner told me proudly that he charged fo a couple of hours a day and could watch telly every evening till the inverter shut down due to the batteries going flat. I used them as was for a few days and charged from engine and a gennie whilst tied up. I had them checked by an electrical guy and four were good one was iffy and the other a bit past it iirc. I rang some so called battery suppliers who mainly couldn't get them or I would be a special order etc at fourteen billion pounds per battery. I took em off and had a proper re wire for four cheapo 12 volt leisure batteries and had them fitted. They lasted me three years and I sold that boat and bought this one. The local pikey was well chuffed when I got him round to take the 2 volt batteries away as he will have got a few shillings for them no doubt. The next set of batteries I weigh in will be the first! Always absolutely always cheap sealed batteries fit, use, bin, replace. Life realy realy is too short to pee about with batteries.

I came to the same conclusion after weighing up the pros and cons financially, it's a wash as far as I'm concerned.  For the leisure boater it's cheapos all day long if you have solar which you obviously should have, but for most liveaboards who don't have a rigorous charging and maintaining routine I reckon expensive batteries don't make much sense.  Also, a while ago I worked out very roughly you would have to get 7-8 years out of a set of, say, Trojans to justify the extra cost so you need to be sure you will hang on to the boat that long.  Our old boat came with a set of top notch Trojans three years old, I've had that boat getting on for five years so the previous owner wasted his money.    

Edited August 26, 2018 by Neil2

[nicknorman]

16 minutes ago, eid said:

Thanks again. The BM-2 certainly looks like a good bit of kit. Does the smartguage do the same thing?

 

 

Just to be certain I understand, when you say 1A (in bold) you mean the ammeter will show that the charge current has gone down to 1A and this means your are 99% charged (on a 100AH battery)? If not, how are you getting your % SOC measurement?

 

Thanks for all the ammeter suggestions.

 

edit: sorry, I think you already answered the above: AH in/out counting.

 

BM2 and Smartgauge work in different ways, but its complicated! The BM2 measures current and uses the current flowing in and out to calculate AH in and out. But it also measures voltage when the current is low and uses that to modify its SoC reading. However it isn't very good at it. The strength of the BM2 is that it measures current, so you an see when to stop charging. It measures total AH taken out. It resets itself to 100% SoC when, during charging, the current falls to a preset % of capacity. But its not very good at estimating SoC during discharge.

 

The Smartgauge doesn't measure current at all. I only measures voltage. But it has a very clever algorithm that allows it to accurately calculate SoC during discharge, and the reported SoC is the % of the actual capacity, not the capacity that you think your batteries have (which is usually more than they do have!). So the Smartgauge is very good for telling you when to charge and giving you an idea about the health of your batteries (ie if the indication is falling faster than it used to, low SoC being displayed in the morning, it's telling you your batteries are losing capacity. However since it doesn't measure current, only voltage, it can only "see" the voltage being produced by the charger during charging. It makes a reasonable estimate of SoC during charge but it can be up to 10% out, which is a lot if you want to know when to stop charging. Really you need an ammeter (either separate, or as part of a BM2 type monitor) to tell you when to stop charging.

 

So Smartgauge great during discharge, not great during charge. BM2 great during charge, pretty hopeless during discharge in terms of its SoC indication.

 

This is why I have both a Smartgauge and an AH-counting monitor (not a BM2 but the same kind of thing).

 

No you can't directly correlate charge current and SoC. The 1% of capacity figure (1A in the example) is a compromise figure  - the compromise being between very long charging times (engine running etc) vs actually getting the batteries "fully charged" in order to ward off sulphation. Lead acid batteries are really annoying in that as they become more and more charged, they will take less and less current. So to absolutely fully charge a battery takes days or longer. Impractical! So a compromise figure that we might call "fully charged" when in fact it is only 99.9% or whatever of fully charged.

 

In summary, you can never practically get your batteries fully charged, you have to decide how long you want to charge them for in order to ward off sulphation, And its also worth mentioning that if you charge at high voltages for long periods, whilst you ward off sulphation there is another problem - positive plate corrosion - which will shorten the battery life. So it is all a compromise. The main thing is that whatever you do to a battery, you shorten its life!

10 minutes ago, eid said:

I think the only thing I'm uncertain about (there are probably lots more actually) is how the measurement of the tail current relates to the state of charge. For instance, if the tail current is at 1 amp, what does this tell me about the SOC percentage, and is it relative to the number of total AH in my battery bank? I think nicknorman may have already told me this, but I'm not sure.

 

Just to confirm, no the tail current cannot be used to tell you the SoC %. It can only used to tell you when the batteries are nominally fully charged.

[Richard10002]

7 hours ago, rowland al said:

You’ll have to let us know where you got yout T105’s from. I cant find any just over £100. Even buying 4 gives only about £10 saving per battery on £600. 

I bought 4 T105s in June 2015 for £400 delivered. That was the lowest price I have seen in  the 7 years since I became aware of them. They have since increased to about £150 each. This makes the Rolls S-170 competitive if Trojans don’t fit your battery space, or you like the idea of 12v batteries rather than 6v, or some other reason.

[Richard10002]

46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 

Just to confirm, no the tail current cannot be used to tell you the SoC %. It can only used to tell you when the batteries are nominally fully charged.

When the tail current is low enough, whether you have decided on 1% or 2% of your estimate of actual capacity, this is the point at which you are considering your batteries to be full charged so, to all intents and purposes, the SoC % is 100.

[eid]

46 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

BM2 and Smartgauge work in different ways, but its complicated! The BM2 measures current and uses the current flowing in and out to calculate AH in and out. But it also measures voltage when the current is low and uses that to modify its SoC reading. However it isn't very good at it. The strength of the BM2 is that it measures current, so you an see when to stop charging. It measures total AH taken out. It resets itself to 100% SoC when, during charging, the current falls to a preset % of capacity. But its not very good at estimating SoC during discharge.

 

The Smartgauge doesn't measure current at all. I only measures voltage. But it has a very clever algorithm that allows it to accurately calculate SoC during discharge, and the reported SoC is the % of the actual capacity, not the capacity that you think your batteries have (which is usually more than they do have!). So the Smartgauge is very good for telling you when to charge and giving you an idea about the health of your batteries (ie if the indication is falling faster than it used to, low SoC being displayed in the morning, it's telling you your batteries are losing capacity. However since it doesn't measure current, only voltage, it can only "see" the voltage being produced by the charger during charging. It makes a reasonable estimate of SoC during charge but it can be up to 10% out, which is a lot if you want to know when to stop charging. Really you need an ammeter (either separate, or as part of a BM2 type monitor) to tell you when to stop charging.

 

So Smartgauge great during discharge, not great during charge. BM2 great during charge, pretty hopeless during discharge in terms of its SoC indication.

 

This is why I have both a Smartgauge and an AH-counting monitor (not a BM2 but the same kind of thing).

 

No you can't directly correlate charge current and SoC. The 1% of capacity figure (1A in the example) is a compromise figure  - the compromise being between very long charging times (engine running etc) vs actually getting the batteries "fully charged" in order to ward off sulphation. Lead acid batteries are really annoying in that as they become more and more charged, they will take less and less current. So to absolutely fully charge a battery takes days or longer. Impractical! So a compromise figure that we might call "fully charged" when in fact it is only 99.9% or whatever of fully charged.

 

In summary, you can never practically get your batteries fully charged, you have to decide how long you want to charge them for in order to ward off sulphation, And its also worth mentioning that if you charge at high voltages for long periods, whilst you ward off sulphation there is another problem - positive plate corrosion - which will shorten the battery life. So it is all a compromise. The main thing is that whatever you do to a battery, you shorten its life!

Just to confirm, no the tail current cannot be used to tell you the SoC %. It can only used to tell you when the batteries are nominally fully charged.

 

OK, I finally understand. That was an excellent explanation (as were your others). Thank you for taking the time.

 

It's a shame because I'd be quite content to cut down my usage for the sake of quicker charging, but actually it would make little difference as I suspect a lot of my usage will be covered in the final phase of charging. At least I won't have to keep my fridge outside now...

 

As for the batteries, I will probably buy some cheap ones and try and keep them alive with a proper charging routine. What I've needed all along was an ammeter (I had been using a voltage meter to guestimate SOC. At least now I will know when I'm undercharging them and can decide whether to carry on based on factual information.

 

The other choice of course is lithium......?

[nicknorman]

21 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

When the tail current is low enough, whether you have decided on 1% or 2% of your estimate of actual capacity, this is the point at which you are considering your batteries to be full charged so, to all intents and purposes, the SoC % is 100.

Yes. But you can’t use the charging/tail current to determine any SoC other than 100%(ish)

[smileypete]

Trojans can work out better value than cheapos long term, but may (will?) underperform if not charged at the higher than typical charge voltages the manufacturer requires.

 

For tail current I'd monitor hourly, if it's less than 1-2% and less than a third of the previous hour's value I'd consider it fully charged. Of course this assumes the charge voltage is correct and the batts are healthy, ie not hopelessly sulphated!

 

It's all about effective charging and effective batt monitoring, most problems come about because this is or was missing somewhere along the line...

[rowland al]

16 hours ago, nicknorman said:

...Except lithium batteries.

Can you point me to any lithium batteries and 12v charger which will fully charge up in an hour or two? This is the problem for those who are off line. It’s not practical to run a engine (or genny) for long periods just to trickle charge.

[Robbo]

46 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Can you point me to any lithium batteries and 12v charger which will fully charge up in an hour or two? This is the problem for those who are off line. It’s not practical to run a engine (or genny) for long periods just to trickle charge.

Quite a few threads on LiFePO4’s already.

[Dr Bob]

54 minutes ago, rowland al said:

Can you point me to any lithium batteries and 12v charger which will fully charge up in an hour or two? This is the problem for those who are off line. It’s not practical to run a engine (or genny) for long periods just to trickle charge.

As Robby says, LiFePo4s will do it. They take the full charge all the time and you don't need to get them full. Big advantage. The problem is everything else mentioned in the threads,perhaps the biggest of which is the cost if you buy a turnkey system as diy is tricky. Only those living in the leading edge are going that way. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, rowland al said:

Can you point me to any lithium batteries and 12v charger which will fully charge up in an hour or two? This is the problem for those who are off line. It’s not practical to run a engine (or genny) for long periods just to trickle charge.

 

All LiFePO4 lithium batteries will do this. The hard bit is avoiding overcharging or over discharging them even once, as this apparently wrecks them. The only fully developed and integrated system with all necessary protections built in I am aware of available here in the UK is the lithium battery system from Victron. Have a goggle.

 

Cost is prohibitive for most boaters though, running to about £4k IIRC but it does what you ask. There is a risk your alternator might not be up to running at full chat for several hours on end though. Automotive alternators only ever run at full chat for very short periods being designed to charge FLA batteries, which draw progressively less current as the charge up.