Diesel maintenance course

[Felshampo]

I have just become the proud owner of a Gardner 2lw. While I am happy to do the standard service jobs such as filters and oil changes I'd like to have a bit of expert advice on other things to keep an eye on. I see the RYA do a diesel engine maintenance course. Can anyone recommend this or are there other more appropriate courses. 

[Phil.]

I did this, and as a complete diesel novice found the course very informative. I seem to remember the engines used were a beta, Vetus and bmc. I suspect that if you already have sufficient knowledge to do servicing, then the course may be a bit basic for you, and may not cover your particular engine.

[Felshampo]

9 minutes ago, Phil. said:

I did this, and as a complete diesel novice found the course very informative. I seem to remember the engines used were a beta, Vetus and bmc. I suspect that if you already have sufficient knowledge to do servicing, then the course may be a bit basic for you, and may not cover your particular engine.

Thanks Phil 

[Ray T]

1 hour ago, Felshampo said:

I have just become the proud owner of a Gardner 2lw. While I am happy to do the standard service jobs such as filters and oil changes I'd like to have a bit of expert advice on other things to keep an eye on. I see the RYA do a diesel engine maintenance course. Can anyone recommend this or are there other more appropriate courses. 

Did a boat come with the engine? 

 

RYA Courses here: http://www.willowwrentraining.co.uk/diesel.html

 

"We link the training to the delegate's specific engine type so one of the requirements is for you to bring your own engine manual with you."

[Felshampo]

11 minutes ago, Ray T said:

Did a boat come with the engine? 

 

RYA Courses here: http://www.willowwrentraining.co.uk/diesel.html

 

"We link the training to the delegate's specific engine type so one of the requirements is for you to bring your own engine manual with you."

Yes that looks a good one. 

I also found this one

https://nbsc.org.uk/diesel-engine-boat-maintenance

Has anyone done this one? 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Phil. said:

I did this, and as a complete diesel novice found the course very informative. I seem to remember the engines used were a beta, Vetus and bmc. I suspect that if you already have sufficient knowledge to do servicing, then the course may be a bit basic for you, and may not cover your particular engine.

That sounds like the RCR course I developed and ran for many years. RCR may have altered the notes given but Felshampo will find the notes I wrote on my website www.tb-training.co.uk

 

I developed it because of the poor standards of some RYA courses although I would hope the RYA has got a better grip on their franchisees now. If eh OP fancies Willow Wren (who I chose for my VHF course) then ask how many engiens they have and what type. Also how many days its over the RCR one is, I think, still two days, many RYA ones are one day.

 

PS any good trainer would naturally carry out the part the OP put in italics.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Felshampo said:

I have just become the proud owner of a Gardner 2lw. While I am happy to do the standard service jobs such as filters and oil changes I'd like to have a bit of expert advice on other things to keep an eye on. I see the RYA do a diesel engine maintenance course. Can anyone recommend this or are there other more appropriate courses. 

 

I'm inclined to think you will pick up more 2LW-specific knowledge talking to other 2LW owners and reading the many threads on here about them, than from any generic maintenance training course. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

17 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm inclined to think you will pick up more 2LW-specific knowledge talking to other 2LW owners and reading the many threads on here about them, than from any generic maintenance training course. 

 

 

 

I think I agree with the above. I very much doubt they will go into spll timing which is about the only thing that deviates from modern inland diesel practice but the course from RCR is, I think, rather more than an engine maintenance course. Hence my pointing the OP to my notes so he can see.

[Felshampo]

7 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

That sounds like the RCR course I developed and ran for many years. RCR may have altered the notes given but Felshampo will find the notes I wrote on my website www.tb-training.co.uk

 

I developed it because of the poor standards of some RYA courses although I would hope the RYA has got a better grip on their franchisees now. If eh OP fancies Willow Wren (who I chose for my VHF course) then ask how many engiens they have and what type. Also how many days its over the RCR one is, I think, still two days, many RYA ones are one day.

 

PS any good trainer would naturally carry out the part the OP put in italics.

Thanks Tony I will have a look at your notes today. 

 

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I'm inclined to think you will pick up more 2LW-specific knowledge talking to other 2LW owners and reading the many threads on here about them, than from any generic maintenance training course. 

 

 

I have searched on here and read a few threads with interest but I find I need to be shown how to do things before they register in my grey matter. 

 

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think I agree with the above. I very much doubt they will go into spll timing which is about the only thing that deviates from modern inland diesel practice but the course from RCR is, I think, rather more than an engine maintenance course. Hence my pointing the OP to my notes so he can see.

The previous owner mentioned adjusting the timing which he said was "easy". I do remember doing it on my first car about 100 years ago but that is just the thing I would want to be shown how to do and have someone watch and advise while I do it. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Felshampo said:

Thanks Tony I will have a look at your notes today. 

 

I have searched on here and read a few threads with interest but I find I need to be shown how to do things before they register in my grey matter. 

 

The previous owner mentioned adjusting the timing which he said was "easy". I do remember doing it on my first car about 100 years ago but that is just the thing I would want to be shown how to do and have someone watch and advise while I do it. 

 

I am no Garner expert but from memory of their larger engines the way injection timing is done was the same for the majority of diesels of the age. However the injection timing should very rarely needs setting and should go tens of years without problems. It only needs doing if the injector pump has been taken off for some reason or the timing gear for the valves etc. has been messed with. This is the same for all diesels but its so rare I very much doubt any course save a specific garner one would explain it.

 

The only time it needs doing frequently is when the pump drive flanges are so warn the timing slips on a regular basis. Its not like a petrol engine of old where every time you changed or adjusted the points you altered the timing so had to reset it.

 

General method of spill timing engines of that age:-

 

1. Set engine to the injection timing position  by marks that are probably on the flywheel by turning in the diction of rotation only, don't turn backwards or if you do finish by turning in the DOR.

 

2. Remove the delivery valve from the top of number one injection element and refit the pump body to pipe adapter that is also known as the delivery valve holder. Keep the valve and spring submerged in a pot of diesel and observe strict cleanliness.

 

3. Fit a home made swan neck pipe (made form an old injector pipe) to the delivery valve holder. ( you can avoid using the swan neck if you watch the meniscus in the delivery valve holder but its usually easier to use a swan neck.

 

4. Looses the bolts in the pump drive.

 

5. Turn the pump flange by had relative to the engine flange while at the same time pumping the lift pump or using a gravity feed fuel tank. Move it gently until the fuel starts to drip out of teh swan neck and the turn it back until it just about stops.

 

6. Tighten clamp, retest for drips, replace delivery valve spring and injector pipe.

 

For simple timing that should do but if the pump has been off the engine you have to set that in the correct position and there are two flange positions that allow fuel through the pump. One is known as long spill and one a short spill. You need the correct one to start with, I think its short spill but to be honest I can't remember from about 40 years ago exactly how to do that.

 

Now, if you think that's simple fair enough but if it ever needs doing on your engine I would advise employing an acknowledged marine Gardner expert, engage them in conversation, offer tea & biscuits and watch them like a hawk. You will learn far more about timing that way than on a general course.

 

Real Gardner experts - If I am wrong for goodness sake jump in and put me right for the OP's sake.

[MtB]

The thing that now worries me is that given the previous owner’s assertion that it is easy, he was probably doing something other than adjusting the injection timing, but what?!

 

And if he really has been messing with the timing it might well be set wrong now, given his casual view of how easy it is. 

 

On the upside, vintage diesels dont seem especially fussy about the accuracy of their injection timing. 

[MtB]

 

By way of explanation, there is no ‘ignition timing’ to set on a diesel like on a petrol engine as there is no spark to ignite the fuel. It ignites from the heat in the combustion chamber from the rise in temperature that occurs as the air charge in the cylinder is compressed by the rising piston. So the only timing that exists to be done is to adjust when during the compression stroke the injection of fuel starts and stops. 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Missing word!

[Tony Brooks]

56 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am no Garner expert but from memory of their larger engines the way injection timing is done was the same for the majority of diesels of the age. However the injection timing should very rarely needs setting and should go tens of years without problems. It only needs doing if the injector pump has been taken off for some reason or the timing gear for the valves etc. has been messed with. This is the same for all diesels but its so rare I very much doubt any course save a specific garner one would explain it.

 

The only time it needs doing frequently is when the pump drive flanges are so warn the timing slips on a regular basis. Its not like a petrol engine of old where every time you changed or adjusted the points you altered the timing so had to reset it.

 

General method of spill timing engines of that age:-

 

1. Set engine to the injection timing position  by marks that are probably on the flywheel by turning in the diction of rotation only, don't turn backwards or if you do finish by turning in the DOR.

 

2. Remove the delivery valve from the top of number one injection element and refit the pump body to pipe adapter that is also known as the delivery valve holder. Keep the valve and spring submerged in a pot of diesel and observe strict cleanliness.

 

3. Fit a home made swan neck pipe (made form an old injector pipe) to the delivery valve holder. ( you can avoid using the swan neck if you watch the meniscus in the delivery valve holder but its usually easier to use a swan neck.

 

4. Looses the bolts in the pump drive.

 

5. Turn the pump flange by had relative to the engine flange while at the same time pumping the lift pump or using a gravity feed fuel tank. Move it gently until the fuel starts to drip out of teh swan neck and the turn it back until it just about stops.

 

6. Tighten clamp, retest for drips, replace delivery valve spring and injector pipe.

 

For simple timing that should do but if the pump has been off the engine you have to set that in the correct position and there are two flange positions that allow fuel through the pump. One is known as long spill and one a short spill. You need the correct one to start with, I think its short spill but to be honest I can't remember from about 40 years ago exactly how to do that.

 

Now, if you think that's simple fair enough but if it ever needs doing on your engine I would advise employing an acknowledged marine Gardner expert, engage them in conversation, offer tea & biscuits and watch them like a hawk. You will learn far more about timing that way than on a general course.

 

Real Gardner experts - If I am wrong for goodness sake jump in and put me right for the OP's sake.

Sorry, some of  the above is ollox.

 

I have just been looking at images of 2LWs in case they had a pneumatic governor, they don't as far as I can see, but if they did there is a warning you would need to be told.

 

They don't have an external coupling but there does seem to be a plate on the engine giving access to the pump drive but waht's in there I have no idea. I am sure the bit about delivery valves etc. is right but not the bit about   the flange. Hope an expert who does not spout carp is along soon.

 

 

[jonesthenuke]

I suggest you join the Gardner Engine Forum if you are not already a member. They are a helpful bunch.

[Felshampo]

SORRY! 

I wrote the above without thinking. 

It was the tappets he said was easy..... Not the timing. (I had just read Tony's comment about spill timing and it reminded me of doing the timing on my old herald using a flashing light contraption) 

[Felshampo]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I am no Garner expert but from memory of their larger engines the way injection timing is done was the same for the majority of diesels of the age. However the injection timing should very rarely needs setting and should go tens of years without problems. It only needs doing if the injector pump has been taken off for some reason or the timing gear for the valves etc. has been messed with. This is the same for all diesels but its so rare I very much doubt any course save a specific garner one would explain it.

 

The only time it needs doing frequently is when the pump drive flanges are so warn the timing slips on a regular basis. Its not like a petrol engine of old where every time you changed or adjusted the points you altered the timing so had to reset it.

 

General method of spill timing engines of that age:-

 

1. Set engine to the injection timing position  by marks that are probably on the flywheel by turning in the diction of rotation only, don't turn backwards or if you do finish by turning in the DOR.

 

2. Remove the delivery valve from the top of number one injection element and refit the pump body to pipe adapter that is also known as the delivery valve holder. Keep the valve and spring submerged in a pot of diesel and observe strict cleanliness.

 

3. Fit a home made swan neck pipe (made form an old injector pipe) to the delivery valve holder. ( you can avoid using the swan neck if you watch the meniscus in the delivery valve holder but its usually easier to use a swan neck.

 

4. Looses the bolts in the pump drive.

 

5. Turn the pump flange by had relative to the engine flange while at the same time pumping the lift pump or using a gravity feed fuel tank. Move it gently until the fuel starts to drip out of teh swan neck and the turn it back until it just about stops.

 

6. Tighten clamp, retest for drips, replace delivery valve spring and injector pipe.

 

For simple timing that should do but if the pump has been off the engine you have to set that in the correct position and there are two flange positions that allow fuel through the pump. One is known as long spill and one a short spill. You need the correct one to start with, I think its short spill but to be honest I can't remember from about 40 years ago exactly how to do that.

 

Now, if you think that's simple fair enough but if it ever needs doing on your engine I would advise employing an acknowledged marine Gardner expert, engage them in conversation, offer tea & biscuits and watch them like a hawk. You will learn far more about timing that way than on a general course.

 

Real Gardner experts - If I am wrong for goodness sake jump in and put me right for the OP's sake.

Tony there is no way this sounds easy, although I believe he was a mechanic who worked for a motor company, and I would not try this in a month of Sundays. This is exactly why I need some friendly hands on advice as when your knowledge is only cursory it is so easy to end up talking bollocks and doing the wrong thing. 

[MtB]

11 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

SORRY! 

I wrote the above without thinking. 

It was the tappets he said was easy..... Not the timing. (I had just read Tony's comment about spill timing and it reminded me of doing the timing on my old herald using a flashing light contraption) 

 

I have to say, your previous owner STILL sounds like an inveterate fiddler. Tappets rarely need adjusting either once they are right. I'm still wondering what else he has been amusing himself adjusting!!

[bizzard]

There's a knack adjusting tappets, apart from getting the valve your adjusting in the correct position, getting the correct gap can be awkward as the gap can alter as the locknut is tightened. Also one needs to account for wear at the rockers tappet face where it strikes the valve stem. If difficulty is experienced getting the gap correct its always best and safer to have them a touch slack than too tight. Try adjusting the tappets on a side valve engine, especially a side valve V8.  I used to teach car maintenance evening classes as well as sailing classes during the 1970's. I remember being given a Ford Motor company film to show the pupils. Having threadded up the film on the projector, this is complicated on those big school projectors when you've not done it before. Ok, lights out!! and I swithched the machine on, and went up to the screen with a stick to indicate certain things on the screen. After half an hour had elapsed the film ended, lights on!!!, and lo, there was a huge heap of film upon the floor. It took me to two hour to wind it back onto the spool with one of those rewinding things on a plank, whilst a humpy care taker stood by jangling keys waiting to lock up. Most of those classes never left the canteen at the 9pm tea break, most of the pupils prefered to listen to my funny experiences in the motor trade rather than learn about tappets and giggling pins and stuff, after all most it seemed just wanted a pleasant social evening out, same with the sailing classes too really.  Plus visits to the pub afterwards, I hardly ever had to buy a drink.

Edited August 26, 2018 by bizzard

[Felshampo]

18 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to say, your previous owner STILL sounds like an inveterate fiddler. Tappets rarely need adjusting either once they are right. I'm still wondering what else he has been amusing himself adjusting!!

Yes, I mentioned this to my local garage and they said they thought it odd but he was a mechanic himself and when I asked him about it he said it was what he did at work. So hopefully that's a job ticked off! 

[Felshampo]

41 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I have to say, your previous owner STILL sounds like an inveterate fiddler. Tappets rarely need adjusting either once they are right. I'm still wondering what else he has been amusing himself adjusting!!

QUOTE from Tony's course

  "To be sure, it would be a good idea to check the clearances every couple of years, even if you do not feel confident enough to adjust them"

[Boredrider]

As previously mentioned, the Gardner Engine Forum is a good source of info, as is the Vintage engine section of this forum.  All the info you need on servicing is contained in a book called "Operating and Maintenance Instructions for Gardner Diesel Vertical and Horizontal Diesel Engines - Types LW, HLW, LW20, HLW20" if you don't have one, then maybe Ebay could help.

 

I have owned a 2LW for 5 years, and have done the tappets maybe three times, very easy indeed. Regular (200 hour) Oil and filter changes using Morris SAE 30 are important, IMHO.  I have changed the injectors (sprayers in Gardnerspeak) once (reconditioned set from Walshes). Never felt the need to fiddle with the timing, and if I did I would probably get a professional in.

 

There will be a massive amount of knowledge floating around at the Gardner Engine Rally, on the site of the Etruria Industrial Museum, Stoke on Trent, on 15th/16th September 2018.  I suggest you might benefit more from attending this than a course on modern diesels.  If you get there, I will happily bore you with what little servicing info i have picked up!

 

[Tony Brooks]

27 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

QUOTE from Tony's course

  "To be sure, it would be a good idea to check the clearances every couple of years, even if you do not feel confident enough to adjust them"

Note the word "check". That is because under same conditions the valve clearance will reduce over time and it will not be obvious by sound like an oversized clearance would be. If left and run a tight valve clearance can eventually lead to burned valves or valve seats and that is a head off job.

 

The instructions on my site (valve fully down, mark flywheel or front pulley, one complete turn and check the valve that was down) will be fine for your engine. The only thing is getting the feel for the clearance on the feelers correct but as I suspect your engine will have nice strong valve springs (unlike modern engines) the feel will be similar to cars of many or our youths. .

[Felshampo]

1 hour ago, Boredrider said:

As previously mentioned, the Gardner Engine Forum is a good source of info, as is the Vintage engine section of this forum.  All the info you need on servicing is contained in a book called "Operating and Maintenance Instructions for Gardner Diesel Vertical and Horizontal Diesel Engines - Types LW, HLW, LW20, HLW20" if you don't have one, then maybe Ebay could help.

 

I have owned a 2LW for 5 years, and have done the tappets maybe three times, very easy indeed. Regular (200 hour) Oil and filter changes using Morris SAE 30 are important, IMHO.  I have changed the injectors (sprayers in Gardnerspeak) once (reconditioned set from Walshes). Never felt the need to fiddle with the timing, and if I did I would probably get a professional in.

 

There will be a massive amount of knowledge floating around at the Gardner Engine Rally, on the site of the Etruria Industrial Museum, Stoke on Trent, on 15th/16th September 2018.  I suggest you might benefit more from attending this than a course on modern diesels.  If you get there, I will happily bore you with what little servicing info i have picked up!

 

Thank you very much for that. 

I am picking the boat up on that weekend so won't be able to attend... Bugger. 

Is there another rally soon? 

I have been looking at the gardner forum for a while now and the Facebook one as well. 

I hope we can meet up anyway. 

[Felshampo]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Note the word "check". That is because under same conditions the valve clearance will reduce over time and it will not be obvious by sound like an oversized clearance would be. If left and run a tight valve clearance can eventually lead to burned valves or valve seats and that is a head off job.

 

The instructions on my site (valve fully down, mark flywheel or front pulley, one complete turn and check the valve that was down) will be fine for your engine. The only thing is getting the feel for the clearance on the feelers correct but as I suspect your engine will have nice strong valve springs (unlike modern engines) the feel will be similar to cars of many or our youths. .

All this sounds doable but I would still like a hands on test run before I try it on my engine hence the preference for a course. 

If I asked my friend who is a garage mechanic would there be any difference between how he would do it and on a marinised engine? 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Felshampo said:

All this sounds doable but I would still like a hands on test run before I try it on my engine hence the preference for a course. 

If I asked my friend who is a garage mechanic would there be any difference between how he would do it and on a marinised engine? 

No, as long as he knows the procedure for engines with less than four cylinders or an odd number of cylinders. Otherwise its the same. Many car mechanics don't know about1, 2, 3, or 5 cylinder engine valve adjustment but motor cycle mechanics do. Oh, and he needs to be old enough to remember push rod engines without hydraulic valve adjusters.