Composting Toilets. Clarification Please

[Clodi]

9 hours ago, Jerra said:

Are you suggesting kids are in nappies until 4 or exaggerating for effect.   Ours were out of nappies by 2 as were the grandkids.

Mine were running wild shitting in the woods at 2, but there again we live in vegan West Wales ?

[ditchcrawler]

CRT have just launched an online questionnaire about composting loos and their use  https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/compostingtoiletsurvey

[LadyG]

I was interested to see what questions they would ask, but it keeps timing out , sigh.

I kinda assume a lot of this "composting waste" is ending up in landfill bins, hopefully double bagged and sealed!

The CRT currently have limited domestic rubbish re-cycling, presumably due to cost of doing dual uplifts, and at the expense of doing a good job.  I'd have thought that is  more critical issue, what do I know ............... I've seen some pretty disgusting photos.

I imagine that [worse case scenario] it could become a public health nuisance but I am not sure where they can go with this,  if it's not a problem, why are they stirring the pot. If it already is a problem, what solutions do they propose?

 

From an earlier post :-

QUOTE

"Excerpt from CRT newsletter 17th November 2017;

 

Composting

Composting toilets are increasing in popularity, particularly in areas with few facilities or very busy areas that suffer from frequently malfunctioning pump-out machines or Elsan units. Composting can be a great solution.  The main thing to consider with compost toilets on boats is having sufficient space to compost solids correctly. Solids can take anything from three months to twelve months to break down into harmless compost. And as anyone who has ever lived on a boat for any length of time will tell you, space is always at a premium. You can never have enough space on a boat! 

It ain’t what you poo it’s the way that you dispose of it

As the waste from a composting toilet may not have enough time to decompose sufficiently on board the boat before it needs emptying, this waste will still need to be disposed at an Elsan/sanitary station. With the increasing popularity of composting toilets, we are hoping to pilot a facility for solid waste from composting loos as part of the London Mooring Strategy but in the meantime liquids go into the Elsan unit and solids should be bagged in a nappy bag and placed in the domestic waste bins. Please don’t dump liquid and solid waste on the towpath or into the water, knowing that it hasn’t composted properly. "

 

UNQUOTE

 

I don't know if anyone from CRT has thought this through, in my limited experience of either babies or incontinent adults, its an order of magnitude difference, one might use a nappy bag and send it to landfill, as our LA advises. but that is one nappy bag per poop. 

Three months of faecal waste plus kitty litter is a difference kettle of fish, even if "harvesting" on a weekly basis.

For what its worth, my own kitty uses her tray very rarely,  and I empty it every three months, its quite heavy, a 10 litre bag probably weighs 5Kg at least.

From my public health education, I can't envisage a successful composting system, never mind one hosted by the CRT in conjunction with the compost loo Londoners.

Edited November 7, 2018 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I was interested to see what questions they would ask, but it keeps timing out , sigh.

Basically there are 8 questions

 

How long have you had a composting toilet (list of options)

Why did you get one (list of options)

Where do you store your waste whilst its composting (list of options)

How long do you consider composting takes (list of options)

What do you do with the waste solids (list of options)

What do you do with the waste liquid (list of options)

What system did you have before the composting toilet (list of options)

What type of boat are you (list of options)

 

Surprisingly there is no 'option' to put "dump it in the canal after 2 weeks" for the disposal questions - although you can tick 'other' and then fill in the 'box' explaining you just tip it out into the canal

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

How long have you had a composting toilet (list of options)

Why did you get one (list of options) - 

Where do you store your waste whilst its composting (list of options) 

How long do you consider composting takes (list of options)

What do you do with the waste solids (list of options)

What do you do with the waste liquid (list of options)

What system did you have before the composting toilet (list of options)

What type of boat are you (list of options)

Completed.

 

Last week

I was desperate for a crap

On next doors boat

Three weeks later

I put them on the fire

I put them on the fire

Squat and Squirt

I am not a boat, I am a human bean!

 

 

 

[LadyG]

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Basically there are 8 questions

 

How long have you had a composting toilet (list of options)

Why did you get one (list of options)

Where do you store your waste whilst its composting (list of options)

How long do you consider composting takes (list of options)

What do you do with the waste solids (list of options)

What do you do with the waste liquid (list of options)

What system did you have before the composting toilet (list of options)

What type of boat are you (list of options)

 

Surprisingly there is no 'option' to put "dump it in the canal after 2 weeks" for the disposal questions - although you can tick 'other' and then fill in the 'box' explaining you just tip it out into the canal

Not really of great value, I suppose the problem is greatest in The Great Metropolis.  

What happened to the London Initiative mentioned last year?

[dmr]

The rise of composting loos on the cut is potentially quite a big problem. The composting loo advocates are saying how great they are so more and more boaters think they are the way to go. A very few who have home moorings and space to keep bins of poo for several months can be real composters, but most boaters are not composting. Their poo box loo will contain a mixture of fresh poo, semi dried out poo, and some totally dried (composted?) poo. This all has to go somewhere. A lot will go into the canalside bins. In some cases these plastic bags full of human poo will be opened by rats. When the bins are full (as they often are) there will be plastic bags full of fresh poo piled up in the bin compounds. A few boaters, who convince themselves that their poo box really does contain compost, will feel not too guilty about dumping it in the towpath undergrowth. Composting loos are just building up a huge amount of poo that is not going to go into the sewers, its going to go somewhere else.

 

...............Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

What happened to the London Initiative mentioned last year?

Was that the one following the vote in June 2016 ?

 

If so we are on track to implement it in Q1 next year.

[LadyG]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Was that the one following the vote in June 2016 ?

 

If so we are on track to implement it in Q1 next year.

That's OK then, as long as its not been swept under the carpet ?

[cuthound]

Don't worry folks, Bill Gates has the solution.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/bill-gates-unveils-waterless-toilet-that-turns-human-waste-into-fertiliser-11546229

 

(I just hope it works better than my Windows 10 laptop ?) 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, cuthound said:

Don't worry folks, Bill Gates has the solution.

 

https://news.sky.com/story/bill-gates-unveils-waterless-toilet-that-turns-human-waste-into-fertiliser-11546229

 

(I just hope it works better than my Windows 10 laptop ?) 

 

Mines 'Crap' as well.

[Tumshie]

1 hour ago, LadyG said:

I've seen some pretty disgusting photos.

I haven't seen any pictures (and one wonders where you're looking if you have) but I have seen first hand the contents of chemical toilets emptied out at the side of the road in some of the more remote parts of the north and west of Scotland or into farmer's fields and at one point poured straight in to the rubbish bin at an old tourist office car park, just tipped directly into the bin. There is just no need for that under any circumstances, some people are just minging. ?

 

I understand that at this time composting toilets are not as easy to dispose of as pump out or elsan but it is not the toilet that's the issue, if/when it is being miss used, then it is the people at fault. I don't want to see people dumping their poo in public rubbish bins, I want composting to be a viable option and I think it can be if the people who use it are willing to put the effort in to do it properly and not just in the manner that's easiest for them.

 

There are people who will always try to do the right thing and there are people who don't care just so long as it's easy. 

 

One option if you want to compost it for longer or if you just want to bag it up and store it securely till it can be disposed of properly is an small airtight blue barrel they're cheap enough and once secured they're perfectly safe and they are easy to keep clean. 

 

 

[tree monkey]

2 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

I haven't seen any pictures (and one wonders where you're looking if you have) but I have seen first hand the contents of chemical toilets emptied out at the side of the road in some of the more remote parts of the north and west of Scotland or into farmer's fields and at one point poured straight in to the rubbish bin at an old tourist office car park, just tipped directly into the bin. There is just no need for that under any circumstances, some people are just minging. ?

 

I understand that at this time composting toilets are not as easy to dispose of as pump out or elsan but it is not the toilet that's the issue, if/when it is being miss used, then it is the people at fault. I don't want to see people dumping their poo in public rubbish bins, I want composting to be a viable option and I think it can be if the people who use it are willing to put the effort in to do it properly and not just in the manner that's easiest for them.

 

There are people who will always try to do the right thing and there are people who don't care just so long as it's easy. 

 

One option if you want to compost it for longer or if you just want to bag it up and store it securely till it can be disposed of properly is an small airtight blue barrel they're cheap enough and once secured they're perfectly safe and they are easy to keep clean. 

 

 

Airtight means anaerobic decay which you really really don't want.

[Tumshie]

Just now, tree monkey said:

Airtight means anaerobic decay which you really really don't want.

You are absolutely right. ?

 

If you secure the barrel it will allow continued composting if the lid is left unsealed at times when necessary the lid could be secured and the content would then be safe from spillage, obviously the lid would have to be loosened as soon as posable again; but this would need to thought out by the owner of the compost, and wouldn't be feasible for everybody. If the pee and the poo are separated and there are no liquids in the compost it should be fine for a little while until it can be disposed off but you're right not indefinitely. Having never tried it with poo I don't know how long a little while is but I've used these barrels to transport all sorts of manky works/sports gear without it coming to too much harm. One of the best things about them it the easy to use secure lid that keep every thing safe inside, but there's no reason why you couldn't experiment by drilling tiny vent holes in them towards the top. Like I said if people want to do something there is always a way you might just have to work a bit harder or smarter to do it. 

[LadyG]

34 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I've been looking on youtube, the vloggers sometimes show the bin facilities, and they are never clean and tidy, plus they struggle to find re-cycling facilities, because that is not a priority.  Sometimes they mention rats near the bins, its obviously a difficult problem. 

I also used to work in Environmental Services.  I visited both sewage farms [I won't go in to too much detail] and landfill sites [yuk]. Composting to a public health standard is not as easy as sticking organic waste in a sealed container, that's not composting.

The Berbers used to dry camel dung and use it on their camp fire, that's no good in the UK. Its not composting.

Large modern farms store six months slurry, and spread it on grass for three months, its no use for growing salads, and the veggie contents of the cows stomachs are already pre-digested. Its not ever composted.

In Ye Olden days we used to have a wee hoose [for immediate evacuation], over the dung heap which stored the output from a few dozen cows, it was mixed with straw and it heated up nicely over the winter, that's composting. We put it on the spuds. The soil bacteria munched their way though it, and six months later we started eating the [washed] spuds.

 

PS re the science of composting: the urine is high in nitrogen, and is a useful nutrient as far as composting organisms are concerned,  so I'm not even convinced that separation  works, except  that it is easy to carry it in  a large plastic jug, and flush it down a loo, and that's not composting.

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by LadyG

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, Tumshie said:

You are absolutely right. ?

 

If you secure the barrel it will allow continued composting if the lid is left unsealed at times when necessary the lid could be secured and the content would then be safe from spillage, obviously the lid would have to be loosened as soon as posable again; but this would need to thought out by the owner of the compost, and wouldn't be feasible for everybody. If the pee and the poo are separated and there are no liquids in the compost it should be fine for a little while until it can be disposed off but you're right not indefinitely. Having never tried it with poo I don't know how long a little while is but I've used these barrels to transport all sorts of manky works/sports gear without it coming to too much harm. One of the best things about them it the easy to use secure lid that keep every thing safe inside, but there's no reason why you couldn't experiment by drilling tiny vent holes in them towards the top. Like I said if people want to do something there is always a way you might just have to work a bit harder or smarter to do it. 

Absolutely but that's one of the issues I think, for those who dedicate time and effort to the process I am sure it can be done.

On the other hand most would just dry it, store it for a few months and think it's composted, which it's not it's dehydrated poo

[Tumshie]

Just now, tree monkey said:

Absolutely but that's one of the issues I think, for those who dedicate time and effort to the process I am sure it can be done.

On the other hand most would just dry it, store it for a few months and think it's composted, which it's not it's dehydrated poo

I really want it to be a viable working option but I'm acutely aware that at the moment it's really not working. ?

 

But with out discussion it never will so.... 

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I'm not even convinced that separation  works,

The point of separation is that urine is good when it's fresh but goes rancid very quickly and prevent the composting process just like how slurry isn't compost. 

[rusty69]

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Absolutely but that's one of the issues I think, for those who dedicate time and effort to the process I am sure it can be done.

I thought desiccating time was a critical factor.

[LadyG]

12 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

You are absolutely right. ?

 

If you secure the barrel it will allow continued composting if the lid is left unsealed at times when necessary the lid could be secured and the content would then be safe from spillage, obviously the lid would have to be loosened as soon as posable again; but this would need to thought out by the owner of the compost, and wouldn't be feasible for everybody. If the pee and the poo are separated and there are no liquids in the compost it should be fine for a little while until it can be disposed off but you're right not indefinitely. Having never tried it with poo I don't know how long a little while is but I've used these barrels to transport all sorts of manky works/sports gear without it coming to too much harm. One of the best things about them it the easy to use secure lid that keep every thing safe inside, but there's no reason why you couldn't experiment by drilling tiny vent holes in them towards the top. Like I said if people want to do something there is always a way you might just have to work a bit harder or smarter to do it. 

One of my gardening customers purchased two "composting" bins from the LA, about ten years ago, she is still waiting for any compost, fortunately there was no question of "off grid" loos.

This might work, but you really need two or three of them!

https://www.originalorganics.co.uk/190l-compost-tumbler?gclid=CjwKCAiAt4rfBRBKEiwAC678KVYzkOPvwuUx5CJUzqdxg8ZpWedWgwlVshZIfsI2pkUGjKa7EXoqxBoCV0cQAvD_BwE

If you add plenty of urine you don't need the expensive additive

Edited November 7, 2018 by LadyG

[Tumshie]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

she is still waiting for any compost, fortunately there was no question of "off grid" loos.

There's a knack to composting and it's not just about throwing any old thing on a pile. I give mine a turn every so often like we did when we turned the muck heaps, I guess old habits die hard, eh.?

 

5 minutes ago, LadyG said:

This might work, but you really need two or three of them!

https://www.originalorganics.co.uk/190l-compost-tumbler?gclid=CjwKCAiAt4rfBRBKEiwAC678KVYzkOPvwuUx5CJUzqdxg8ZpWedWgwlVshZIfsI2pkUGjKa7EXoqxBoCV0cQAvD_BwE

That's fab is there one that would fit under your cratch cover ?

[LadyG]

9 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

There's a knack to composting and it's not just about throwing any old thing on a pile. I give mine a turn every so often like we did when we turned the muck heaps, I guess old habits die hard, eh.?

 

That's fab is there one that would fit under your cratch cover ?

 

[Tumshie]

Just now, LadyG said:

 

That 'ill do it. ?

[Tumshie]

And just incase you need a way to carry your little blue barrel to the appropriate disposal point....

[Detling]

Are we in the 21 st century or the 19th, we had massive epidemics of disease killing thousands in our major cities in the early 1800's and this was solved by building sewers, installing flushing toilets and building public toilets.  We now seem to be heading back to the early 19th century toilet arrangements that led to such epidemics, OK our drinking water is still better, but there are many other ways for bacteria to travel, the best prevention is to shift our waste well away from other people and to treat it properly, land fill plastic bags and local dustbins may not always achieve this.

[peterboat]

59 minutes ago, Detling said:

Are we in the 21 st century or the 19th, we had massive epidemics of disease killing thousands in our major cities in the early 1800's and this was solved by building sewers, installing flushing toilets and building public toilets.  We now seem to be heading back to the early 19th century toilet arrangements that led to such epidemics, OK our drinking water is still better, but there are many other ways for bacteria to travel, the best prevention is to shift our waste well away from other people and to treat it properly, land fill plastic bags and local dustbins may not always achieve this.

So I take it you will break it to the young mums that disposable  nappies are to be banned? Because I suspect far more of those end up in landfill than double bagged compost. The issues was in the early 1800s that sewage was tipped on the streets next to the water pumps a sure fire way of causing health problems! Once again I can lay money on that you have never used a composting toilet?