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Decline of the canals through abuse and neglect


Momac

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1 hour ago, Neil2 said:

I take the opposite view - While I don't think it is feasible for boaters to fund the entire amount spent on canal maintenance, I have thought for a long time now that if the licence fee made up over 50% (it's currently about a third IIRC) then we would have a much more significant voice.  As it is, CRT can always play the card that we boaters are in effect heavily subsidised (and therefore should be grateful).

 

I've already made the point that it's only active boaters who really care about the infrastructure, and as it is we can fairly easily be ignored.   

The private licence fee income is about £20M and I believe that figure is gross, not net. The total spend on what is defined as CRTs "charitable activities" is £153M covering works on the canal system, customer support and the museums.  So there is a long way to go before the license fee justifies boaters having a predominant say in how the money is spent.

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3 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

The private licence fee income is about £20M and I believe that figure is gross, not net. 

Is there a difference? I would think that CART, as a charitable organisation, does not pay tax on its income.

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15 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

Cost of collecting subscriptions and enforcement.

I see what you mean, though these must represent but a tiny fraction of that enormous figure. For example, average cost (to boater) of licence about £700, average cost (to CART) of envelope, paper and stamp about 70p.

   I'm not going to get embroiled in the argument about how assiduously enforcement is carried out!

Edited by Athy
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5 minutes ago, Athy said:

I see what you mean, though these must represent but a tiny fraction of that enormous figure. For example, average cost (to boater) of licence about £700, average cost (to CART) of envelope, paper and stamp about 70p.

   I'm not going to get embroiled in the argument about how assiduously enforcement is carried out!

And staff costs including pensions etc, office space, equipment.

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2 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

And staff costs including pensions etc, office space, equipment.

But these are not paid exclusively out of the income from boating licences - at least, I presume that they aren't.

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20 minutes ago, Athy said:

But these are not paid exclusively out of the income from boating licences - at least, I presume that they aren't.

£19.7 million is spent on "Supervision, Management of Volunteers, Training & Travel"

 

Income from Defra is £51 million

Income from Building investments is £51 million

Income from Utility companies for water extraction and drainage £29 million

Income from Moorings and licences £38 million

Income from BWML £8.5 million

Income from donations £6.1 million

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British Marine Inland Boating is the trade association to which many of the hire boat operators belong. You would think they would be lobbying CRT to ensure maintenance standards are maintained, as their members suffer if hire boat traffic is disrupted.

 

Does anyone know if this is happening?

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On 19/08/2018 at 23:19, Athy said:

If done gently, in what way is this worse than opening the gates by hand?

I agree.  A boat gently pushing on the gate(s) is pushing around the mid point.  Conversely, the balance beam is mounted at the top and, when pushed, stresses the entire structure by twisting it.

 

Just look at a gate with perhaps 2-3" of head to go, with exuberant youths bouncing on the beam, to see what I mean.

 

George

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I guess one of the problems is some enthusiastic  amateur at some time thought that this way was the correct way to do something & possibly explained in a loud voice how to/not do it the boaters that knew a different possibly better way were almost non exsistant so a certain possibly not as good way of doing a task was taken up by the even less knowledgeable with no one more skilled to advise them BW/C&RT observed the way tasks were carried out & thought maybe if we advise this it will become the way to go & should be done this way & will maybe save us money on maintenance so the myth was born & flourished with the old frowned on way of doing it was better in a lot of cases

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2 hours ago, furnessvale said:

I agree.  A boat gently pushing on the gate(s) is pushing around the mid point.  Conversely, the balance beam is mounted at the top and, when pushed, stresses the entire structure by twisting it.

 

Just look at a gate with perhaps 2-3" of head to go, with exuberant youths bouncing on the beam, to see what I mean.

 

George

I am not sure a few youths could match a 40hp engine.   The key word is "gently".   IHow long would gates survive if only a few boaters pushed them open too early with far too much force? And I doubt it would be only a few.  Even if the damage was not catastrophic the edges of the gates would soon get worn. A few over enthustiastic youths are far less likely to do a lot of harm pushing the gates by hand than pushing them with the help of an engine..

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2 hours ago, furnessvale said:

I agree.  A boat gently pushing on the gate(s) is pushing around the mid point.  Conversely, the balance beam is mounted at the top and, when pushed, stresses the entire structure by twisting it.

 

Just look at a gate with perhaps 2-3" of head to go, with exuberant youths bouncing on the beam, to see what I mean.

 

George

 

9 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

I am not sure a few youths could match a 40hp engine.   The key word is "gently".   IHow long would gates survive if only a few boaters pushed them open too early with far too much force? And I doubt it would be only a few.  Even if the damage was not catastrophic the edges of the gates would soon get worn. A few over enthustiastic youths are far less likely to do a lot of harm pushing the gates by hand than pushing them with the help of an engine..

I thought the reason the practice is frowned upon these days is the same reason we're not supposed to squeeze through the single gate of a wide lock, it's to prevent wear and tear on the edges which stops the gates sealing properly.  

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2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

I thought the reason the practice is frowned upon these days is the same reason we're not supposed to squeeze through the single gate of a wide lock, it's to prevent wear and tear on the edges which stops the gates sealing properly.  

Certainly on a narrow canal the bows never touch the edge seals.  The bows push against the steel protection plates which protect the seal faces.

 

A single narrowboat on a broad canal is different where one gate can open first exposing the opposite gate seal strip to wear.  However, broad canals were not built for single narrowboats and the correct boat on the correct canal poses no problem.

 

George

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8 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

Certainly on a narrow canal the bows never touch the edge seals.  The bows push against the steel protection plates which protect the seal faces.

 

A single narrowboat on a broad canal is different where one gate can open first exposing the opposite gate seal strip to wear.  However, broad canals were not built for single narrowboats and the correct boat on the correct canal poses no problem.

 

George

I understand.  No problem then with a pair of boats in a wide lock pushing the gates open.

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1 minute ago, Neil2 said:

I understand.  No problem then with a pair of boats in a wide lock pushing the gates open.

Correct and for the benefit of others, the operative word is pushing, not battering.  For the avoidance of doubt, if the steerer is not experienced enough to do the job properly, do not try it!

 

George

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Just now, furnessvale said:

Correct and for the benefit of others, the operative word is pushing, not battering.  For the avoidance of doubt, if the steerer is not experienced enough to do the job properly, do not try it!

 

George

How would anyone gain the experience without trying it the first time?

 

I do agree that some boaters are terrible at judging the length of their boat and clatter into lock gates at ridiculous speeds, rather than gently touch the gates and then idle in gear against them. 

 

 

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Back in the 1960's, I helped crew a former working boat under the skilled captaincy of a former working boatman, we nearly always used the boat to help open the top gates, but we didn't drive at them, We usually kept the boat in forward gear on tick over in the big GU locks, to stop the inrush of water throwing the boat onto the bottom gates, and when the lock was full the boat just gently moved forwatd, opening the gates. This was noprmal p[ractice on the GU for all working boats, and I cannot ever remember a lock being disabled by this method. The only possible "damage" was to the top edge of the Cill, but they all had a large wooden beam held in place by chains to protect it, which could be replaced in a couple of hours when it got worn through. We also opened the bottom gates using thumblines from the hand rails as described by X Alan W.

 

Edited by David Schweizer
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29 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

Back in the 1960's, I helped crew a former working boat under the skilled captaincy of a former working boatman, we nearly always used the boat to help open the top gates, but we didn't drive at them, We usually kept the boat in forward gear on tick over in the big GU locks, to stop the inrush of water throwing the boat onto the bottom gates, and when the lock was full the boat just gently moved forwatd, opening the gates. This was noprmal p[ractice on the GU for all working boats, and I cannot ever remember a lock being disabled by this method. The only possible "damage" was to the top edge of the Cill, but they all had a large wooden beam held in place by chains to protect it, which could be replaced in a couple of hours when it got worn through. We also opened the bottom gates using thumblines from the hand rails as described by X Alan W.

 

Neptune & Lucy at Maffers using said technique, 1961.

 

Before anyone says "but look at the propwash they are going to ram the gate" or similar words. Look at the lack of wake from the butty elum.

The motor has been "opened up" to push the gates open.

 

Pictures are from an ancient edition of Waterways World. I have made enquiries to find out who the photographer was but to no avail.

Neptune and Lucy @ Maffers.jpeg

 

 

Edited by Ray T
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6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

How would anyone gain the experience without trying it the first time?

 

I do agree that some boaters are terrible at judging the length of their boat and clatter into lock gates at ridiculous speeds, rather than gently touch the gates and then idle in gear against them. 

 

 

I just knew someone would ask that!

 

The experience I refer to is knowing how quickly your boat stops in varying conditions, how it reacts to the push of bywashes, realising that a bywash can suddenly start up or stop just as quickly and why that happens, what happens if you offer your boat up to the gates of an emptying lock, and a myriad other things that can and do happen.

 

When a boater understands all that perhaps he can try offering his boat up to closed gates and see what happens.

 

George

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