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Decline of the canals through abuse and neglect


Momac

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8 hours ago, Athy said:

If done gently, in what way is this worse than opening the gates by hand?

Little by little, if done repeatedly, the boat nudging the gates and then rubbing past the gates as they open will cause wear .

Surely it is not the intended method of opening the lock gates .

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Little by little, if done repeatedly, the boat nudging the gates and then rubbing past the gates as they open will cause wear .

Surely it is not the intended method of opening the lock gates .

 

 

That depends, I suppose, on whose the intentions are. I'm given to understand that it was regularly done by commercial boats, and not always gently.

I would add that we do it only if a top gate is so stiff and heavy that it won't open manually, or if one of a pair of bottom gates swings shut while we're on the other side opening the other one.

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1 minute ago, Athy said:

 

I would add that we do it only if a top gate is so stiff and heavy that it won't open manually,

 

I do think all boaters should do whatever they can to avoid wear and tear on the canal infrastructure. Some of the equipment , lock gates and paddles included, has been in place well beyond its intended service life so it should be treated gently in order to keep it going as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I do think all boaters should do whatever they can to avoid wear and tear on the canal infrastructure. Some of the equipment , lock gates and paddles included, has been in place well beyond its intended service life so it should be treated gently in order to keep it going as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, i quite agree. 

I suggest that if equipment were properly maintained, then it would work properly. If it doesn't (e.g. top gate impossible to open, often because of leaking bottom gates) then one has the alternative of using the boat to encourage it to open, or waiting there for ever.

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5 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

I do think all boaters should do whatever they can to avoid wear and tear on the canal infrastructure. Some of the equipment , lock gates and paddles included, has been in place well beyond its intended service life so it should be treated gently in order to keep it going as long as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

I think most people would agree - the problem is that there are those that work n the principle that "if I do it, and no one else does, then it will all be OK - let everyone else play by the rules but it is easier / quicker for me to do it my way"

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My family hired narrowboats when I was a nipper between 1983 and 1990's. I remember and have been told there were leaky gates, shallow pounds, overhanging trees and stiff paddles and the odd know it all telling us how wrong we were doing everything, but we cruised every day of the holiday and covered many miles. Today I am crusing extensively, and there's some leaky gates, shallow pounds, overhanging trees and stiff paddles and the odd know it all telling me how wrong I'm doing it all. I don't cruise every day but still cover many miles.

 

Whether these issues are in the same places as 35 years ago I really have no idea, but they've certainly always been around in the time I've been on the canals.

 

So to answer the question, I think the cycle of repair and decline will continue as it has for the last few hundred years, and we'll still be navigating the network in some form or another well into the future.

Edited by Rumsky
Forgot to answer the OPs question
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16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think most people would agree - the problem is that there are those that work n the principle that "if I do it, and no one else does, then it will all be OK - let everyone else play by the rules but it is easier / quicker for me to do it my way"

Indeed - there was once a video clip on CWDF of a bloke taking a "run-up" in his boat and bashing into the gates with such force that they bounced around in their sockets. Luckily, such people are a rarity: I've never seen anyone behave like that.

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4 hours ago, MartynG said:

Little by little, if done repeatedly, the boat nudging the gates and then rubbing past the gates as they open will cause wear .

Surely it is not the intended method of opening the lock gates .

 

 

Double  gates in the days of commercial boating had replaceable wooden strips at the mitre joint if these wore causing leaks & the rest of the gates were OK or needed little work it was a quick & easy fix don't know if they are still fitted shame if not, cannot remember handrails having to be replaced/fixed because of thumb  lining & single top gates had slam/push boards fitted single gate in some cases had an upstand opposite to the heel post to act as a strapping post & paddles can be dropped if braked by a hand on the windlass spindle Ham Baker paddle gear was designed to be dropped lack of maintenance of the rubber bump stops is the only reason damage occurs on this gear the past ways of lock working caused probably lees damage than present ways of working I think it is the lack of knowledge/ blow you Jack attitude by some present day boaters that causes damage Back in he working days God help you jf the other boaters found a stoppage had been caused by you damaging canal kit through knowingly doing something to cause it

Edited by X Alan W
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8 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think most people would agree - the problem is that there are those that work n the principle that "if I do it, and no one else does, then it will all be OK - let everyone else play by the rules but it is easier / quicker for me to do it my way"

Funnily enough (as the principle is a good one) I have never actually seen a 'rule' that bans the practice. Surely it must exist somewhere but are new boaters told about it?

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8 hours ago, Athy said:

Indeed - there was once a video clip on CWDF of a bloke taking a "run-up" in his boat and bashing into the gates with such force that they bounced around in their sockets. Luckily, such people are a rarity: I've never seen anyone behave like that.

That one in Leeds was made to pay for the damage by CRT

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On 19 August 2018 at 17:36, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT has 'removed' all of the skilled labour that used to be able to 'balance gates', and between BW and C&RT 'sold off' the lock keepers, all of their tools and much of the maintenance fleet, relying on outside contractors such as Fountains (veg cutting) and May Gurney / Kier (construction)

Reference to the art of balancing gates is often made on the forum - sometimes by folk who know their onions - but what exactly does this art of balancing gates that has apparently been lost entail?

 

JP

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I tend to agree that whilst the canals are probably in a better state now than say 30-40 years ago the overall impression is that things are on the slide.  You probably wouldn't form this view if you did all your boating on, say, the South Oxford, or even the Grand Union, but, for example, the Leeds Liverpool is a shadow of its former self.  But even the popular canals are suffering in terms of tree control and towpath/canalside maintenance (except where it's a cycling rat run) and the standard of dredging is unsatisfactory everywhere.

 

I'd like to be more optimistic about the future but all I see is more and more folk buying sixty and seventy footers and widebeams which just sit shoulder to shoulder in the plethora of marinas we have now, and will have more of in the future.  These folk I would argue are less concerned about the state of the the locks bridges and towpaths than they are about their marina facilities.  

 

I sometimes think those of us who own our own boat and cruise the network regularly are becoming like the old "number ones" in the decline of working boats.  In other words the only people who really care about the state of the infrastructure are a dying breed fighting a losing battle.   That's possibly a little too apocalyptic but I do think CRT see us as a minority group these days, and the fewer in numbers we become the easier we are to ignore .  

 

 

 

   

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4 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Reference to the art of balancing gates is often made on the forum - sometimes by folk who know their onions - but what exactly does this art of balancing gates that has apparently been lost entail?

 

JP

I don't have the 'art' so I don't know.

What I do know is that 'in the old days' you could easily open a gate & it would stay open. 'In the old days' you could close a gate and it would stay closed. 

 

Nowadays the answer seems to be add a 'folding leg' on the balance beam to hold it on position, or just do nothing and let 'them as is boaters' (now getting older) struggle.

 

Now we have multiple examples of balance beams snapping off due to rot (but its usually called boater damage)

We have examples of lock gates being incorrectly installed,(with thru' bolts being installed with the head 'outwards' and the length of threaded studding 'inwards' giving a nice 'catch point' for boats ascending.)

Paddles are rarely greased.

There are examples of paddle-ratchet-stops (or whatever the name is of that little lever that you drop into the teeth) being put in position 'backwards' so it doesn't drop into the teeth

 

I could go on.

 

The Art of installing lock gates has been lost with the making redundant of employees who knew ''how to do the job' and the introduction of 'lowest quote' construction firms who have no idea and are trying to learn on the job.

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39 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Reference to the art of balancing gates is often made on the forum - sometimes by folk who know their onions - but what exactly does this art of balancing gates that has apparently been lost entail?

 

JP

As far as i under stood new gates balance beams were left long & when fitted cut to length also the "angle of dangle" of the heel post was also a factor  I suppose the advent of steel gates & balance beams made the job harder also there was no mechanical handling set of sheer legs & chain block & tackle & fitted in a day or less no lengthy stoppages

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27 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I don't have the 'art' so I don't know.

What I do know is that 'in the old days' you could easily open a gate & it would stay open. 'In the old days' you could close a gate and it would stay closed. 

 

Nowadays the answer seems to be add a 'folding leg' on the balance beam to hold it on position, or just do nothing and let 'them as is boaters' (now getting older) struggle.

 

Now we have multiple examples of balance beams snapping off due to rot (but its usually called boater damage)

We have examples of lock gates being incorrectly installed,(with thru' bolts being installed with the head 'outwards' and the length of threaded studding 'inwards' giving a nice 'catch point' for boats ascending.)

Paddles are rarely greased.

There are examples of paddle-ratchet-stops (or whatever the name is of that little lever that you drop into the teeth) being put in position 'backwards' so it doesn't drop into the teeth

 

I could go on.

 

The Art of installing lock gates has been lost with the making redundant of employees who knew ''how to do the job' and the introduction of 'lowest quote' construction firms who have no idea and are trying to learn on the job.

Do go on Alan.

 

Do you have more examples of bolts installed the wrong way round other than Alan Fincher's Hillmorton incident, or more incidents of pawls being installed the wrong way round other than the one that featured in a recent thread?

 

I don't think you are that much older than me but I don't remember the "good old days" to which you refer. My early memories are of canals being a challenge, evidence from the hardy few who fought for the future of canals in the 1960s suggests it was worse then. The system may have declined in the most recent years but is that surprising given the economic status of the country in recent times. Is it right that we should take issue with that?

 

As for contractors, they built the canals and pretty much every engineering marvel that you know. They even physically United the States of America with an immigrant Chinese workforce over a hundred years ago. There's nothing much new in the world. Contracting work out isn't a problem in itself, if there is an issue it's likely to be with the clienting capabilities of CRT.

 

And back to balancing gates. If you don't know what the skill is how can you say it's been lost? I am not even sure there is such a skill and that the balance of gates is inherent in the design. CRT do of course still design and construct their own gates at Bradley. It's also worth noting that if sustainability and reliability were the key objectives CRT would be allowed to build them in steel. We can't have it both ways.

 

JP

 

 

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23 minutes ago, X Alan W said:

As far as i under stood new gates balance beams were left long & when fitted cut to length also the "angle of dangle" of the heel post was also a factor  I suppose the advent of steel gates & balance beams made the job harder also there was no mechanical handling set of sheer legs & chain block & tackle & fitted in a day or less no lengthy stoppages

The angle of the quoin was referenced in a recent thread. I doubt that a gate could ever be truly balanced since that could only be done with no wind and no flow while levels are on weir. Those conditions don't generally exist in real life usage of locks. The aim is presumably to make a gate naturally swing to either open or closed from broadly either side of half way. I know they don't all do this but did they ever?

 

JP

 

ETA - thanks for a bit of insight. It seems to be a stick used to beat CRT but enquiries never seem to shed much light on the facts.

Edited by Captain Pegg
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1 minute ago, Captain Pegg said:

The angle of the quoin was referenced in a recent thread. I doubt that a gate could ever be truly balanced since that could only be done with no wind and no flow while levels are on weir. Those conditions don't generally exist in real life usage of locks. The aim is presumably to make a gate naturally swing to either open or closed from broadly either side of half way. I know they don't all do this but did they ever?

 

JP

Don't know never gave "em" time to  find out I was very naughty strapping "em" shut & pushing with the boat or thumb linning

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14 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The angle of the quoin was referenced in a recent thread. I doubt that a gate could ever be truly balanced since that could only be done with no wind and no flow while levels are on weir. Those conditions don't generally exist in real life usage of locks. The aim is presumably to make a gate naturally swing to either open or closed from broadly either side of half way. I know they don't all do this but did they ever?

 

JP

 

ETA - thanks for a bit of insight. It seems to be a stick used to beat CRT but enquiries never seem to shed much light on the facts.

I’ve always understood that the critical factor in whether a gate swings open or closed is the position of the pit the foot of the heel post sits in relative to the strap holding the top of the post, the same as a rudder can be made to self centre by having the cup in the skeg slightly forward of the top bearing. In either case, swinging the gate/rudder should raise its centre of gravity so that it wants to swing back down.

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6 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

I’ve always understood that the critical factor in whether a gate swings open or closed is the position of the pit the foot of the heel post sits in relative to the strap holding the top of the post, the same as a rudder can be made to self centre by having the cup in the skeg slightly forward of the top bearing. In either case, swinging the gate/rudder should raise its centre of gravity so that it wants to swing back down.

That makes sense and it would require an off-vertical quoin. It also sounds like an intrinsic feature of the design rather than something achieved by a mysterious art known only to bygone waterways operatives.

 

JP

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10 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

That makes sense and it would require an off-vertical quoin. It also sounds like an intrinsic feature of the design rather than something achieved by a mysterious art known only to bygone waterways operatives.

 

JP

I guess tweaking the tension on the top strap can make a difference, adjusting how far the heel post leans away from the quoin when the lock is empty.

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Balance for a lock gate is when the weight of the gate, less the flotation up thrust from the immersed portion is the same as the down thrust from the balance beam, allowing for any difference in the distance from the pivot.  Technically the sum of the moments about the heel of the gate should be pretty much zero.  Since the gate moment  can't easily be adjusted once built it is the balance beam which should be bespoke to a gate.

Self opening/ closing depends on a batter to the quoin at right angles to the lock centreline and another lean downstream parallel to the centreline.

When we were at Bradley I asked about steel gates as there are several on the Southern GU. The frame lasts longer, apparently, but the woodwork of the seals doesn't. The economics of renewing the seals is fragile as by then the the gate is usually more than half life.

Steel gates can also be permanently distorted by a ramming that would merely cause loose joints and timber damage in a wooden gate. 

All in CRT think most gates are best made in wood. Though Bradley might say that would they not.  Bulbourne built a lot of steel gates as well as timber ones. Has anyone asked at Stanley Ferry?

N

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The main  culprit though is not CART,  undoubtedly, though they are not spending all their available funds optimally, like rebranding from an elegant logo, a direct descendant from it's predecessor, to a half submerged drain pipe. On reflection, the new logo is perhaps more appropriate then I gave it credit for.

The canal network is still majority funded from the UK Government. A Government possessed by the imposition of austerity. When spending decreases below natural deterioration rates then it is only a matter of time before  failures occur. In infrastructure generally these only cause amenity and economic loss ( the penny wise pound foolish stuff), although the Genoa viaduct collapse, shows deferring such maintenance can cost lives as well.

The big casualty of systemic underspending on government services  though, are the people,  deprived of adequate maintenance of their health, (mental and physical),  education and mobility. Like infrastructure, inadequate spending, here will at best, result in degraded economic outcomes, and at worse  human tragedy.

 

Edited by DandV
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29 minutes ago, DandV said:

The main  culprit though is not CART,  undoubtedly, though they are not spending all their available funds optimally, like rebranding from an elegant logo, a direct descendant from it's predecessor, to a half submerged drain pipe. On reflection, the new logo is perhaps more appropriate then I gave it credit for.

The canal network is still majority funded from the UK Government. A Government possessed by the imposition of austerity. When spending decreases below natural deterioration rates then it is only a matter of time before  failures occur. In infrastructure generally these only cause amenity and economic loss ( the penny wise pound foolish stuff), although the Genoa viaduct collapse, shows deferring such maintenance can cost lives as well.

The big casualty of systemic underspending on government services  though, are the people,  deprived of adequate maintenance of their health, (mental and physical),  education and mobility. Like infrastructure, inadequate spending, here will at best, result in degraded economic outcomes, and at worse  human tragedy.

 

I would agree.  However this does lead on to other things....

 

There are about 34000 boats registered.  If the canals were to be maintained primarily for the benefit of boaters, a very small % of the population, it would not in my view be unreasonable to expect boaters to pay for them - say £3K-£4k or more for the average annual license fee.  This is why it is essential that as many people as possible are involved in the canals, be it cyclists, dog walkers, volunteers who enjoy working and painting locks, nature enthusiasts etc etc and why we as boaters should welcome them.

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27 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

This is why it is essential that as many people as possible are involved in the canals, be it cyclists, dog walkers, volunteers who enjoy working and painting locks, nature enthusiasts etc etc and why we as boaters should welcome them

You forgot fishermen.

 

 

The problem (or part of it) is that 'all of the above' make no financial contribution to the maintenance of the canals (apart from being taxpayers - as are many boat owners)

Currently the Government is funding a considerable amount via grants but this is soon to be finished and C&RT are, by then, supposed to be 'self-financing', 

 

The target of achieving 'monetary giving FRIENDS' has been a dismal failure. The Trust's target was for 100,000 Friends in 10 years, so they should have about 60,000 by the end of the 2017/18 financial year. They have provided two different figures - the higher of which is in the annual report - 24,100. 

 

Cumulatively (for the last 6 years) the cost of raising donations has exceeded the income by £5.5 million.

 

The original projections were based on net income and contained a prudence factor of 25%. The plan showed small loses in the first three years.

 

However, the plan showed a cumulative net income of £0.7m positive by 2017/18.

What we actually have is a loss of £5.5m to date.

 

Income is being spent to attract walkers, bird watchers, newt enthusiasts and cyclists*, that could be spent on C&RTs primary function as a Navigation Authority

Some of the management decisions are (in my mind questionable), why spend 'millions' on a new logo and subsequent clothing, vans etc.

C&RT recently dredged a non-navigable canal to encourage dragon fly populations - removing and disposing of all of the silt / mud, plant life etc. - the crux of the matter is that the Dragon fly lays its eggs under the water attached to the plants in the 'margins', and as a nymph it spends about 4 years under the water, before it leaves the water and becomes an adult with a life span of about 2 weeks. C&RT have destroyed the Dragon fly population in that area & it will take several years for it to recover.

 

* Cyclists do indirectly make a contribution as Sustrans have contributed towards the tarmacking of the tow-paths in various places.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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41 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

I would agree.  However this does lead on to other things....

 

There are about 34000 boats registered.  If the canals were to be maintained primarily for the benefit of boaters, a very small % of the population, it would not in my view be unreasonable to expect boaters to pay for them - say £3K-£4k or more for the average annual license fee.  This is why it is essential that as many people as possible are involved in the canals, be it cyclists, dog walkers, volunteers who enjoy working and painting locks, nature enthusiasts etc etc and why we as boaters should welcome them.

I take the opposite view - While I don't think it is feasible for boaters to fund the entire amount spent on canal maintenance, I have thought for a long time now that if the licence fee made up over 50% (it's currently about a third IIRC) then we would have a much more significant voice.  As it is, CRT can always play the card that we boaters are in effect heavily subsidised (and therefore should be grateful).

 

I've already made the point that it's only active boaters who really care about the infrastructure, and as it is we can fairly easily be ignored.   

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