Decline of the canals through abuse and neglect

[Momac]

I hear  many lock gates and sluices are in a bad state and are difficult to operate . Gates being pushed open by boats under power and paddles being allowed to drop rather than behind would down being common abuses that cause damage but are apparently regarded by some as normal operation. 

Sluices being left open and allowing water to drain away.Canals silting up and not being dredged.

At the same time little resources seem to be available to be  expended in upkeep. Persistent abusers squatting  is taking up some of those scarce resources.

How long will it be before abuse and neglect combine to cause navigation through the inland waterways system to become a memory?

Edited August 19, 2018 by MartynG
.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, MartynG said:

How long will it be before abuse and neglect combine to cause navigation through the inland waterways system to become a memory?

I'll start off the bidding at 25 years for 'joined-up' navigations as we know it today

 

The Trent (Meadow Lane to Cromwell) "main navigable channel" is supposedly maintained to a minimum of 11 metre wide x 2 metres (6' 6") deep. On a number of occasions I have grounded whilst in the MNC & I draw 4' 6"

[Guest]

Good points, There has been  a very poor attitude developed, on the canals the type of people attracted to the canal don't care about anyone but themselves. Selfish, selfcentred, ill do what i want & to hell with anyone else. I don't like the constant knocking of CRT BUT i feel they have encouraged some of the problems by not being harder on those abusing the system, In particular bridge hoppers over stayers etc. In my opinion too much is spent on advertising the glory of the canals to encourage moor people without promoting the rules,  including the cyclists, My opinion so no doubt ill get shouted down. But hey ho.

[OldGoat]

17 minutes ago, oats said:

Good points, There has been  a very poor attitude developed, on the canals the type of people attracted to the canal don't care about anyone but themselves. Selfish, selfcentred, ill do what i want & to hell with anyone else. I don't like the constant knocking of CRT BUT i feel they have encouraged some of the problems by not being harder on those abusing the system, In particular bridge hoppers over stayers etc. In my opinion too much is spent on advertising the glory of the canals to encourage moor people without promoting the rules,  including the cyclists, My opinion so no doubt ill get shouted down. But hey ho.

It's a generation thing -

Oh dear; I was brought up to consider 'others'. "Please and thank you, may I". Now it's the cult of the individual - "you are important" - Devil take the hindmost.....  

[BruceinSanity]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

It's a generation thing -

Oh dear; I was brought up to consider 'others'. "Please and thank you, may I". Now it's the cult of the individual - "you are important" - Devil take the hindmost.....  

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint".

(Hesiod, 8th century BC)

[Momac]

In this case it's not necessarily the youth who are the abusers. 

Edited August 19, 2018 by MartynG
Typo

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, MartynG said:

In this case it's not necessarily the youth who are the abusers. 

How true 

 

[Dave123]

6 hours ago, MartynG said:

I hear  many lock gates and sluices are in a bad state and are difficult to operate . Gates being pushed open by boats under power and paddles being allowed to drop rather than behind would down being common abuses that cause damage but are apparently regarded by some as normal operation. 

Sluices being left open and allowing water to drain away.Canals silting up and not being dredged.

At the same time little resources seem to be available to be  expended in upkeep. Persistent abusers squatting  is taking up some of those scarce resources.

How long will it be before abuse and neglect combine to cause navigation through the inland waterways system to become a memory?

This reads like you haven't actually experienced these locks in a bad state...Just heard about it second/third hand? 

[LadyG]

5 hours ago, OldGoat said:

It's a generation thing -

Oh dear; I was brought up to consider 'others'. "Please and thank you, may I". Now it's the cult of the individual - "you are important" - Devil take the hindmost.....  

Although it is not only the younger generation who adopt this attitude. Intimidation and aggression is widespread, by those who think they can "get away with it"

Last week I rebelled, and have made a difference. Today there was no aggression and intimidation at the local swimming pool and health suite. Lets hope this continues. If you let people take advantage, they will push the boundaries: last week I was told to keep out of the way by two swimmers, as they "owned" the swimming lane because they were there before me. That is what they told me. It was suggested by one guy [about 60] that I should "get a slap in the face" Enough is enough.

Edited August 19, 2018 by LadyG

[jonesthenuke]

Conversely the system is in many ways better than it was 40 years ago when I first took out a narrowboat.  My memories are of overgrown towpaths being the norm and far more oil and grot in the water in places like central Birmingham.

 

However I do sympathise with the OP to an extent and in particular believe we should press CRT and EA to maintain appropriate standards of dredging etc.

[Neil2]

I worry about the continuing decrease in moving traffic on many canals which inevitably leads to slack maintenance.   I think it's a shame that the network is now dominated by the steel narrowboat so getting on the water as a leisure pursuit is now a very expensive business.   One of our boats is on the Lancaster canal at the moment and I find it refreshing that there are scores of folk pottering about in cheap grp cruisers, I met a young couple recently out for a few days in a 19' Fairline that they only paid £900 for.  Ok the Lanky is lock free but there was a time when lots of folk took to the canals in assorted Vikings Freemans and Normans, but I suspect anyone contemplating canal boating now thinks you must have the ubiquitous steel box like Tim and Pru off the telly.  Mind you if Tim is steering you would want to be in something made of steel I suppose.  

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

33 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I suspect anyone contemplating canal boating now thinks you must have the ubiquitous steel box like Tim and Pru off the telly.

Good point, and very valid.

 

Maybe this should be highlighted more often.

 

36 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I find it refreshing that there are scores of folk pottering about in cheap grp cruisers, I met a young couple recently out for a few days in a 19' Fairline that they only paid £900 for.

 

[mrsmelly]

43 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I worry about the continuing decrease in moving traffic on many canals which inevitably leads to slack maintenance.   I think it's a shame that the network is now dominated by the steel narrowboat so getting on the water as a leisure pursuit is now a very expensive business.   One of our boats is on the Lancaster canal at the moment and I find it refreshing that there are scores of folk pottering about in cheap grp cruisers, I met a young couple recently out for a few days in a 19' Fairline that they only paid £900 for.  Ok the Lanky is lock free but there was a time when lots of folk took to the canals in assorted Vikings Freemans and Normans, but I suspect anyone contemplating canal boating now thinks you must have the ubiquitous steel box like Tim and Pru off the telly.  Mind you if Tim is steering you would want to be in something made of steel I suppose.  

 

 

I wouldn't like to live on a 19 foot fair line though. It's probably worse than living in a house!

Edited August 19, 2018 by mrsmelly

[NBDensie]

7 hours ago, MartynG said:

I hear  many lock gates and sluices are in a bad state and are difficult to operate . Gates being pushed open by boats under power and paddles being allowed to drop rather than behind would down being common abuses that cause damage but are apparently regarded by some as normal operation. 

Sluices being left open and allowing water to drain away.Canals silting up and not being dredged.

At the same time little resources seem to be available to be  expended in upkeep. Persistent abusers squatting  is taking up some of those scarce resources.

How long will it be before abuse and neglect combine to cause navigation through the inland waterways system to become a memory?

 

 

Is this your actual experience or is it all hearsay?  My own experience of travelling widely across the system is that the canals are in a far better condition than 30-40 years ago.  Lock gates and paddles are easier to operate and I have had no problems from the canals silting up..   People generally dont let paddles drop except through carelessness nor do they often leave paddles up,   I have only very rarely seen anyone trying to open the gates under power.  Maintenance seems much better organised than in the past and I see no evidence of deterioration.

[Alan de Enfield]

27 minutes ago, NBDensie said:

 

 

Is this your actual experience or is it all hearsay?  My own experience of travelling widely across the system is that the canals are in a far better condition than 30-40 years ago.  Lock gates and paddles are easier to operate and I have had no problems from the canals silting up..   People generally dont let paddles drop except through carelessness nor do they often leave paddles up,   I have only very rarely seen anyone trying to open the gates under power.  Maintenance seems much better organised than in the past and I see no evidence of deterioration.

I have not travelled the system "widely" (mainly T&M, Nottingham to Leicester to Birmingham, Llangollen etc - ie 'Midlands') and my experience is certainly at odds with your own. Since we started boating 30+ years ago there was certainly an improvement, we then seemed to reach a peak and for the last 15-20 years there has been a noticeable reduction in standards, from Dredging, to Lock and gate repairs to the general standards applied by Subcontractors (example, throwing all the brick-waste in the canal and wondering why boats couldn't get past)

 

Lock gates that won't stay closed, lock gates that take two of us to open, paddles that require an extra long handled ratchet to move.

C&RT has 'removed' all of the skilled labour that used to be able to 'balance gates', and between BW and C&RT 'sold off' the lock keepers, all of their tools and much of the maintenance fleet, relying on outside contractors such as Fountains (veg cutting) and May Gurney / Kier (construction)

 

I would suggest that with the current 11-14 closures* we are now in a worse position than we were 30 years ago.

 

* Remember that the Middlewich breach was reported to C&RT as a 'leak' by the farmer 3 years ago and had been getting gradually worse (as they do).

 

Holland even had a little boy who used to stick his fingers in a dyke wall leak - we don't even have that.

 

Preventative maintenance and 'a stitch in time' are not idea that seem to ever cross the mind of the C&RT management, I am certain we have not yet reached the nadir of canal problems.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[X Alan W]

Back in the working era lock paddles were dropped (or left fully up)& boats were used to open /close gates either pushing or thumb lining gates open or strapping shut I did this fo 10 years & can't remember there being much or any damage caused to the lock gates etc difference I suppose was the users knew what did & what caused what + there were boots on the ground the un or little used canals were in a sorry state though but to get along was a "tirfor" pieces of ply wood or"wriggley tin "& ash for gate racking unless it was  major problem it was a diy job & no thought of calling out BW  difference guess was users were enthusiasts not casual users

[Momac]

4 hours ago, Dave123 said:

This reads like you haven't actually experienced these locks in a bad state...Just heard about it second/third hand? 

 It is based on the description from good friends who did something a little over 100 locks on a recent narrowboat journey . I don't know which canals . They are very experience hire boaters as wella s owning their own cruiser.

I don't use the canals myself as my present boat doesn't fit under the bridges, except perhaps on the aire and calder  and nearby waterways but I haven't been that way recently.

 

They were advised by an assumed to be experienced live aboard boater to not bother swinging the top gates but just push them open with the boat. This is obviously not correct and will damage the lock gates .They also observed sluice paddles  being dropped rather than would down which can potentially cause damage. 

They found a number of sluice paddles damaged and while well greased were difficult to operate due to damage/distortions.

A C&RT employee was met on the journey and agreed a great deal of upkeep was overdue.

 

Closer to home I am aware of assets such as  lock keepers cottage, which had been let and was generating an income, being sold off. Boater facilities in the form of toilets and showers at two locations being sold off  which will mean their loss to boaters . One tidal lock had required a sluice repair for months when we were there in July. The basin  at this lock and associated buildings  are understood to be up for sale.

Several C&RT owned marinas are up for sale and may now be sold?

 

The overall picture in my mind is that of decline.

[Captain Pegg]

38 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 It is based on the description from good friends who did something a little over 100 locks on a recent narrowboat journey . I don't know which canals . They are very experience hire boaters as wella s owning their own cruiser.

I don't use the canals myself as my present boat doesn't fit under the bridges, except perhaps on the aire and calder  and nearby waterways but I haven't been that way recently.

 

They were advised by an assumed to be experienced live aboard boater to not bother swinging the top gates but just push them open with the boat. This is obviously not correct and will damage the lock gates .They also observed sluice paddles  being dropped rather than would down which can potentially cause damage. 

They found a number of sluice paddles damaged and while well greased were difficult to operate due to damage/distortions.

A C&RT employee was met on the journey and agreed a great deal of upkeep was overdue.

 

Closer to home I am aware of assets such as  lock keepers cottage, which had been let and was generating an income, being sold off. Boater facilities in the form of toilets and showers at two locations being sold off  which will mean their loss to boaters . One tidal lock had required a sluice repair for months when we were there in July. The basin  at this lock and associated buildings  are understood to be up for sale.

Several C&RT owned marinas are up for sale and may now be sold?

 

The overall picture in my mind is that of decline.

Put like that it is fair to ask if that view is shared by the wider forum. I think the way the original post was pitched and the bit about "persistent abusers squatting" and the sub-plot that sparked off has turned a lot of people away from entering into any discussion on this thread.

 

I think a lot of the evidence you state could have been applied at almost any time over the history of canals since at least nationalisation  and possibly since the decline in toll income much much earlier than that. To a degree these things come in cycles and have to be offset against expansions of the system over the past 30 years and more.

 

CRT is a vehicle specifically created to reduce direct state funding of inland waterways and push the source of funding toward the charitable sector. Therefore we should perhaps not be surprised by some of CRTs policies and if there is blame to be apportioned perhaps we should go a step beyond CRT. I don't see things improving in the near future - the country has had much bigger challenges than the state of its canals for the last decade or so and that isn't about to change - but I really don't see a threat to the future of the waterways that form the core of the system and which are well used. Some lesser used examples would benefit from us all making more use of them. To that end I think it's very foolish to take up against folk who wish to use the waterways no matter how different their approach to boating maybe to our own. The only requirement is that they should boat within the law (and not anyone else's view of what is right or wrong).

 

JP

 

 

Edited August 19, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[Arthur Marshall]

12 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

Put like that it is fair to ask if that view is shared by the wider forum. I think the way the original post was pitched and the bit about "persistent abusers squatting" and the sub-plot that sparked off has turned a lot of people away from entering into any discussion on this thread.

 

I think a lot of the evidence you state could have been applied at almost any time over the history of canals since at least nationalisation  and possibly since the decline in toll income much much earlier than that. To a degree these things come in cycles and have to be offset against expansions of the system over the past 30 years and more.

<snip>

 To that end I think it's very foolish to take up against folk who wish to use the waterways no matter how different their approach to boating maybe to our own. The only requirement is that they should boat within the law (and not anyone else's view of what is right or wrong).

 

I think it has certainly declined over the last twenty years, possibly accelerating since CRT took over.  In a way, it was bound to - it got to a state where the system seemed to cope comfortably with the number of users, and then there seemed to be an explosion of numbers (possibly because the system seemed so well set up), and at the same time a decline in funding.

And of course people's expectations of how they could live on the cut expanded, wanting more of the comforts usually found in houses and this in turn puts a strain on the resources.

Add in the fact that a lot of reconstruction work and maintenance was done in the early boom by volunteers and that this now has to be paid for by contractors, bung on the fact that a two / three hundred year old system is now thirty years older, bridges have to cope with heavier traffic...

I've never had a problem with the live-on squatters, if your only options are an old hulk or the street, at least a battered old cruiser keeps the rain off.  I get more annoyed about the "continuous cruisers" who dump their boats in a prime mooring for two weeks unattended, shift it over a weekend and do the same again. But there aren't that many of them, really, so I don't get very annoyed.  Those bloody geese, though...

[Mike Todd]

5 hours ago, jonesthenuke said:

Conversely the system is in many ways better than it was 40 years ago when I first took out a narrowboat.  My memories are of overgrown towpaths being the norm and far more oil and grot in the water in places like central Birmingham.

 

However I do sympathise with the OP to an extent and in particular believe we should press CRT and EA to maintain appropriate standards of dredging etc.

But it ain't that simple. Let us supposed start by defining a suitable standard but then discover that it is not affordable within available resources. What then? Such artificial standards will not create more government resources.  Look at what is happening with local authorities where statutory duties are being avoided on the grounds of austerity. 

 

More likely, someone will state what money is available and then calculate a new standard based in that figure. This then resets the norm and there is really no way back from that process. It is a one way street. 

 

In my view CaRT are likely to be able to achieve some balance between competing demands in the absence of too many hard constraints. The harder some, the softer will be others. OK, so we have met the dredging standard but tough luck on the elsan points (for example)

 

[Athy]

6 hours ago, NBDensie said:

 

 

,   I have only very rarely seen anyone trying to open the gates under power. 

If done gently, in what way is this worse than opening the gates by hand?

[70liveaboard]

I can't see them falling into a state of 'unusable', and we wouldn't be around then, if they did.

But it is fair to say, they have done some great work in places, thinking really Rochdale Canal, Caledonian etc. (not done the Caledonian).

 

I think there has to be a real rethink in funding and salaries to top end people.

If we did lose our system, then shame on whoever let that happen.

 

And when I say 'they have done some great work' I mean people in general, not just trusts etc.

Edited August 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Caledonian etc. (not done the Caledonian).

You really should - its more than 'just a canal'.

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

You really should - its more than 'just a canal'.

Yeah, I know. We've been told that many times. You never know though.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, 70liveaboard said:

Yeah, I know. We've been told that many times. You never know though.

We last did it Sept 2013 and after 30+ years of boating its the only one that I still regularly scroll thru the pictures, - its one of those places for the 'bucket-list'.