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Consultation opens on proposal for BSS Requirements for CO alarms on boats


Rob@BSSOffice

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1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

That's interesting - you say 12ppm - how do you know - do you have a digital display alarm - or a gas detector meter.

On a point of clarification do you mean by "Our multi fuel stove makes zero CO" - that it emits zero CO into the cabin.

As far as I know,  all stoves make CO.

We have two digital readout meters, they are not expensive, about £30. Not sure how accurate they are at very low concentrations.

And yes, I did mean the stove gives zero CO inside the boat. The previous stove, a Stratford Range, put too much CO into the boat.

 

The "back of the boat" meter reads quite a bit when I am equalising the batteries. I hope it might give advance warning of impending battery failure!

 

................Dave

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9 minutes ago, dmr said:

We have two digital readout meters, they are not expensive, about £30. Not sure how accurate they are at very low concentrations.

And yes, I did mean the stove gives zero CO inside the boat. The previous stove, a Stratford Range, put too much CO into the boat.

 

The "back of the boat" meter reads quite a bit when I am equalising the batteries. I hope it might give advance warning of impending battery failure!

 

................Dave

You find that at low limits it won’t register on the display at all.   It may start at 12ppm so your stove may put out 5ppm but not get displayed.

 

Does the meter read higher depending on how much your burn there toast?

Edited by Robbo
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16 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

4) False alarms. I used to get a steady trickle of call-outs for "CO alarm sounding". I would advise the caller to turn the gas off and open the windows and doors. But when I got there and turned everything ON again, everything worked perfectly. No CO alarms sounding, my own CO reporting zero CO, all appliances passing safety checks, so very difficult to know what to advise other than blaming the CO alarm. Nowadays there is a specific gas qualification required to investigate a CO alarm call out, which thankfully I don't have. If you make CO alarms mandatory, I think you are also duty-bound to publish a procedure for investigating these events, and establishing whether the alarm is real or false. Or at least issue some official advice in anticipation of problems in this area.

I did wonder about this with earlier parts of the thread.

 

(Hypothetically) it's two o'clock in the morning, the CO alarm has woken me up and there is nothing turned on in my boat (including battery chargers) which could have caused it. I go and bang on the boat next door fearing for the safety of the occupants - they (possibly not very politely!) show me their CO alarm which has not triggered, (not very politely) thank me for my concern and threaten to throw me in the cut if I do it again!

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1 minute ago, 1st ade said:

I did wonder about this with earlier parts of the thread.

 

(Hypothetically) it's two o'clock in the morning, the CO alarm has woken me up and there is nothing turned on in my boat (including battery chargers) which could have caused it. I go and bang on the boat next door fearing for the safety of the occupants - they (possibly not very politely!) show me their CO alarm which has not triggered, (not very politely) thank me for my concern and threaten to throw me in the cut if I do it again!

The YouTube bloggers Minimal List has a CO alarm that went off in the night that they couldn’t source the issue with...

 

https://youtu.be/yQq9Ib5hykY

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2 minutes ago, 1st ade said:

I did wonder about this with earlier parts of the thread.

 

(Hypothetically) it's two o'clock in the morning, the CO alarm has woken me up and there is nothing turned on in my boat (including battery chargers) which could have caused it. I go and bang on the boat next door fearing for the safety of the occupants - they (possibly not very politely!) show me their CO alarm which has not triggered, (not very politely) thank me for my concern and threaten to throw me in the cut if I do it again!

 

Also, there is the boat we all encounter occasionally with some sort of alarm inside loudly beeping away. No sign of life in the boat. Is it empty or is the occupant unconscious from CO poisoning? Should we break into the boat or walk on by?

 

There is a case for a specific and easily recognisable beep pattern for boat CO alarms to emit, I suggest. Then people outside the boat can differentiate between CO alarms sounding and say, a low battery voltage alarm. Or a LPG gas alarm even.

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17 minutes ago, Robbo said:

You find that at low limits it won’t register on the display at all.   It may start at 12ppm so your stove may put out 5ppm but not get displayed.

 

Does the meter read higher depending on how much your burn there toast?

Its very "digitised", I think it starts at 12, then goes up in steps of 4, or something like that.

The smoke alarms detect the toast burning ?, the CO alarm mostly just responds to the grill operating. The flames all look good and blue and the BSS man said its not uncommon to get a CO reading.

 

We sleep in the back cabin but have not lit the Epping for a couple of years now as it makes the place too hot, but next time we do light it it will be very interesting to do some CO readings, I suspect that "top loading" stoves are not ideal as they rely on draw rather than a rope seal.

 

I did wake up with a headache one morning then realised the dogs nose was an inch away from by face and I was breathing in her exhaust. Am looking to fit a dog-breath detector next. ?

 

.................Dogs

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7 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I have a CO alarm. I don't need the BSS to tell me it's a good idea, but it is a good idea regardless. 

 

I cannot speak for others.

 

How do you know it works?

 

I'm sure it will beep when you press the 'test' button, but this just tells you it beeps when you press the button.

 

How do you know it genuinely works and detects CO, before you let those lovely smug feelings of confidence and security from CO poisoning really take hold?

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18 minutes ago, dmr said:

The smoke alarms detect the toast burning ?, the CO alarm mostly just responds to the grill operating. The flames all look good and blue and the BSS man said its not uncommon to get a CO reading..

As the burning toast probably put's out CO as well, then the CO meter probably detecting that and not from the grill itself.  

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1 minute ago, Robbo said:

As the burning toast probably put's out CO as well, then the CO meter probably detecting that and not from the grill itself.  

 

Cookers emit CO in spades, due to the 'flame chilling' effect. At the interface where the flame gets cooled, incomplete combustion occurs (so we are taught), causing CO to be produced. This happens in grills and under saucepans. Not in ovens though.

 

So I'd expect the grill to cause a CO monitor to display a result even when burning the toast has not been achieved yet.  This is why CO monitoring is not a 'black and white' thing. Monitors need an algorhythm to know when its only the spuds being boiled and not to sound, while going off like a banshee when charging the batteries. 

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47 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

There is a case for a specific and easily recognisable beep pattern for boat CO alarms to emit, I suggest. Then people outside the boat can differentiate between CO alarms sounding and say, a low battery voltage alarm. Or a LPG gas alarm even.

Remember the days when phone's went ...--... for an SMS. Even those who didn't know Morse could recognise it.

-.-. --- for CO?

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Just done a very inconclusive experiment.

 

Grill on, CO meter on work surface near grill, Got reading of 10ppm, then 13 (new meter appears to start at 10ppm, next reading is 13).

No toast, but there are a lot of bread crumbs in grill pan.

Removed grill pan, reading returns to 0ppm after delay of a minute or two.

Replaced grill pan (with breadcrumbs), reading remained at 0. ???????

 

.................Dave

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18 minutes ago, dmr said:

Just done a very inconclusive experiment.

 

Grill on, CO meter on work surface near grill, Got reading of 10ppm, then 13 (new meter appears to start at 10ppm, next reading is 13).

No toast, but there are a lot of bread crumbs in grill pan.

Removed grill pan, reading returns to 0ppm after delay of a minute or two.

Replaced grill pan (with breadcrumbs), reading remained at 0. ???????

 

.................Dave

 

A faulty monitor, obvs!!!

 

Either that or an extremely intelligent one, that knows you are testing it and is messing about with you. 

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27 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Worrying sign. Have you got a CO alarm with you in there?

 

:giggles:

 

Yep. I've no idea how to know if it works though.

 

My desk banging with my head experience suggests to me that BSS consultation documents are more dangerous than CO...

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How do you know it works?

 

I'm sure it will beep when you press the 'test' button, but this just tells you it beeps when you press the button.

 

How do you know it genuinely works and detects CO, before you let those lovely smug feelings of confidence and security from CO poisoning really take hold?

I don't, I just know that it tests. Having a CO alarm that responds to the test button correctly is a lot better than not having any alarm at all.  I'm neither smug nor confident, it is just that statistically speaking I am more secure, and therefore less likely to become a statistic. The fact that my boat has a reasonable standard of ventilation also helps.

 

It may be what you are getting at, but by keeping the stove flue swept, not leaving the gas stove lit etc I can also improve my chances of survival. 

44 minutes ago, dmr said:

Just done a very inconclusive experiment.

 

Grill on, CO meter on work surface near grill, Got reading of 10ppm, then 13 (new meter appears to start at 10ppm, next reading is 13).

No toast, but there are a lot of bread crumbs in grill pan.

Removed grill pan, reading returns to 0ppm after delay of a minute or two.

Replaced grill pan (with breadcrumbs), reading remained at 0. ???????

 

.................Dave

 

25 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

A faulty monitor, obvs!!!

 

Either that or an extremely intelligent one, that knows you are testing it and is messing about with you. 

See top line of dmr's post?

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

We have two digital readout meters, they are not expensive, about £30. Not sure how accurate they are at very low concentrations.

And yes, I did mean the stove gives zero CO inside the boat. The previous stove, a Stratford Range, put too much CO into the boat.

 

The "back of the boat" meter reads quite a bit when I am equalising the batteries. I hope it might give advance warning of impending battery failure!

 

................Dave

 

Ah so the next thing the BSS will ban is equalising batteries and the shortly afterwards because hydrogen can, I understand, trigger a CO alarm, ban charging batteries.

If low lever CO is so dangerous you can't be too careful you know. Just think - No smoking aboard, no vaping, no BBQs in case the gasses produced might be low level CO.

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1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

How do you know it works?

 

I'm sure it will beep when you press the 'test' button, but this just tells you it beeps when you press the button.

 

How do you know it genuinely works and detects CO, before you let those lovely smug feelings of confidence and security from CO poisoning really take hold?

You could use something like this (other brands are available): https://www.gasfm.co.uk/co-detector-tester-spray-3331-p.asp

 

Of course it won't tell you at what concentration of CO the alarm triggers (assuming it does).

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4 minutes ago, rasputin said:

It would appear that some folks get confused over the two v different questions

 

1. Is having a CO alarm on a boat a good idea?

 

2. Should the BSS include CO alarms?

 

My answers are yes, and No

 

 

Good point. Same here actually.

 

We could add the question ‘Should we have a BSS scheme?’. After all you don’t have to go through this every 4 years for a private house. 

 

But anyway, it’s a bit late for that now and I expect we will have to comply with what ever money making schemes are thrown at us.

 

Baa. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Ah so the next thing the BSS will ban is equalising batteries and the shortly afterwards because hydrogen can, I understand, trigger a CO alarm, ban charging batteries.

If low lever CO is so dangerous you can't be too careful you know. Just think - No smoking aboard, no vaping, no BBQs in case the gasses produced might be low level CO.

 

Banning equalisation would be a good thing, but they really need to totally ban the charging of lead-acids altogether and give us a huge "environmental grant" to install Lithiums., releasing all that Hydrogen and Oxygen into the environment must be really bad ?.

I have read that Lead acids can be almost 100% recycled,I wonder if its the same for Lithiums?

 

..............Dave

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23 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

The tests are a bit more complex than you think for CO Alarms, some of which take some 24 hours to do. There are many fakes out there on sale. Which in most cases only work once before the sensors became damaged from the exposure and will no longer function correctly afterwards. You should be able to find online the Beeb program Fake Britain which covered these alarms (Only repeated last week) 

 

Which Report

Can You Rely On Your CO Alarm?

 

Personally I am not looking for more information for myself. I already know enough about the subject of CO detection, monitoring and control, to be confident they are a good idea and as such support the mandatory aspect for boats.

Yes to say they are a good idea - but no to the imposition of on-going testing. The complexity of which will be a nightmare to draft a testing protocol - especially to introduce a 24hr test regime.

A simple procedure such that the product must meet an approved standard of compliance - and then left to the boat owner to ensure they perform properly during use.

All we need is sound basic advice on the make and type best suited for the job.

 

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6 minutes ago, Horace42 said:

<snip>

All we need is sound basic advice on the make and type best suited for the job.

 

But that is something that has been lacking from the BSS and their examiners since the beginning of the scheme.

Remember when it started, we had to cut holes in our boats to fit an external exhaust for the gas fridge, which in my case got knocked off the first time I went through a lock.  I've resented the blasted know-nothings who set an endlessly varying and vague set of standards ever since, although my boat has always passed except after it was rewired by a qualified electrician and BSS examiner, when the next one refused to pass it on the grounds that he didn't actually know whether it was compliant or not.

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21 hours ago, AndrewIC said:

Who provides an equivalent service for CO (and smoke - mandatory in new builds) alarms in domestic premises, even those with fashionable solid fuel stoves? Who enforces such routine testing? No one. Why should boats be subject to more stringent and costly encumbrances?

Yes, you touch on the practical issue of confirming compliance.

It make sense to support having alarms, but no to testing regimes - for reason I gave earlier here.

 

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