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Consultation opens on proposal for BSS Requirements for CO alarms on boats


Rob@BSSOffice

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1 hour ago, Rob@BSSOffice said:

We don't run consultations to tick boxes. All opinions are sought. We look forward to all members of CWDF submissions should they choose to participate. It would be a good thing.

Has anybody any knowledge of an organisation empowered to insist you do stuff running a consultation that wasn't a foregone conclusion?  Even from the BSS ofice's comments above, it's pretty obvious this is going to be done, whatever the "consultation" results.

Interestingly, I had a conversation with a boat electrician who was apparently part of the team that worked on what new stuff goes into the BSS, and, again, it was pretty obvious that this was an empire building business to make sure  more and more regulations would be imposed.  I presume this is to justify the endless increase in the cost of the tests and to make sure the testers get paid enough to make it worth their while continuing.

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5 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Has anybody any knowledge of an organisation empowered to insist you do stuff running a consultation that wasn't a foregone conclusion?  Even from the BSS ofice's comments above, it's pretty obvious this is going to be done, whatever the "consultation" results.

Interestingly, I had a conversation with a boat electrician who was apparently part of the team that worked on what new stuff goes into the BSS, and, again, it was pretty obvious that this was an empire building business to make sure  more and more regulations would be imposed.  I presume this is to justify the endless increase in the cost of the tests and to make sure the testers get paid enough to make it worth their while continuing.

I agree with this but just to say that I’m sure most BSS examiners actually believe they are providing a helpful service. Let’s not forget C&RT take a big cut out of every examination to add to that empire building fund. 

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This is actually an interesting development as its another case of the "state" imposing rules to protect people from themselves, like crash helmets, seatbelts and smoking. These things can usually be justified as reducing the cost to the state of illness and premature death. With boaters and CO the cost to the state is a bit less but still significant.

 

I propose that fitting a CO alarm on a boat is so logical that its economically counter productive to enforce it as those who choose not to fit one are likely to be bigger a cost to society by remaining alive. I would therefore propose that CO alarms are optional for single boaters and only compulsory for those who have children, visitors, or dogs ?.

 

From my own observations of boat fatalities it would be better to find a way to prevent older single men from drinking too much then trying to board the boat via the gangplank in winter. Maybe the BSS should include a count of empty cider and spirit bottles ?.

 

..............Dave

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

Its all gets so difficult

 

BSS checklist:

 

Remove all crap from gas bottle locker and hide behind hedge so BSS man won't see it.

Borrow fire extinguishers from boat behind.

Borrow CO meter from boat behind.

Wipe all leaky fuel unions and remove dip trays from below unions (or whisky bottle if you have a Kelvin).

Remove covers from air vents.

Remove underwear that wife has wrapped round stove flue to warm up.

 

Did I forget anything?

 

..................Dave

Chain up the gas bottles.

 

Remove cheapo inverter that isn't wired up properly.

 

Remove battery that's normally balanced on top of the others.

 

 

 

Edited by Neil2
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7 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

 

Chain up the gas bottles.

 

Remove cheapo inverter that isn't wired up properly.

 

Remove battery that's normally balanced on top of the others.

 

 

 

 

Try to get the same BSS examiner who passed it last time as they may remember your boat.

 

Make them a nice cup of tea.

 

Don’t follow them around as they inspect your boat.

 

Lisen to what they say and be nice to them. 

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3 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

CO alarms are great and only foolish people wouldn’t have them, however they are way beyond the remit of the BSS. CO alarms are not mandatory in people’s houses, why should they be in boats. 

They are in shared houses with more than 5 occupants and they need replacing every 7 years as well as being mains powered. Only in rooms with burning devices though so kitchen if gas and the room with the gas boiler and any room with a fire.

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4 minutes ago, rowland al said:

 

Try to get the same BSS examiner who passed it last time as they may remember your boat.

 

Make them a nice cup of tea.

 

Don’t follow them around as they inspect your boat.

 

Lisen to what they say and be nice to them. 

To be a bit serious, we have always passed first time, but have usually had an advisory warning about a couple of things and the BSS man has always given a couple bits of good advice.

I feel I am quite able to maintain my boat in a safe condition myself but getting a second opinion from a BSS man who gets to see a lot of boats is always a good thing. It also makes be get round to doing those little things that need doing.

 

I like to keep my main CO alarm on the shelf so I can move it about when required. I suspect I will have to fix it to the wall next time.

 

...............Dave

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Detling said:

They are in shared houses with more than 5 occupants and they need replacing every 7 years as well as being mains powered. Only in rooms with burning devices though so kitchen if gas and the room with the gas boiler and any room with a fire.

Yes but you are not comparing like with like. I agree that hotel boats and hire boats should have alarms, this aligns with HMOs and other rental properties. But owner-occupied houses aren’t required to have alarm no matter the number of family occupants, and thus neither should private narrowboats. It is not a matter of what is good practice, it is a matter of ensuring the BSS doesn’t exceed its remit and consider it thus has power to control our everyday lives. Creeping nanny state syndrome.

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

Its all gets so difficult

 

BSS checklist:

 

Remove all crap from gas bottle locker and hide behind hedge so BSS man won't see it.

Borrow fire extinguishers from boat behind.

Borrow CO meter from boat behind.

Wipe all leaky fuel unions and remove dip trays from below unions (or whisky bottle if you have a Kelvin).

Remove covers from air vents.

Remove underwear that wife has wrapped round stove flue to warm up.

 

Did I forget anything?

 

..................Dave

Remove curtain on galley window over stove.

Remove towels from stove fiddle rails.

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10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Why was the ventilation requirement mandatory some years ago? I seem to recall the justification was to avoid CO poisoning. Now it seems that as its advisory the BSS intends to introduce mandatory CO alarms. Seems muddled thinking to me.

I agree, maybe they need to update their mission statemrnt.

 

Of course this could all be just another distraction like the ‘licence fee consulatiion’. That divided boaters too. 

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Well this week I have seen one trad stern boat with the genny running on the back deck with the rear doors open and today I have seen a boat with the genny running inside the boat with the exhaust aimed at the open side doors, I will add that nether were tatty old boats.

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3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Well this week I have seen one trad stern boat with the genny running on the back deck with the rear doors open and today I have seen a boat with the genny running inside the boat with the exhaust aimed at the open side doors, I will add that nether were tatty old boats.

Yes one sees that sort of thing quite often. Very stupid and dangerous BUT people should have the right to kill themselves as a result of stupidity. One also sees people drinking too much for their health, smoking, eating too much etc etc. Should those be covered by the BSS too?

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7 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Yes one sees that sort of thing quite often. Very stupid and dangerous BUT people should have the right to kill themselves as a result of stupidity. One also sees people drinking too much for their health, smoking, eating too much etc etc. Should those be covered by the BSS too?

My point was what difference would the requirement to have a CO detector make to people who do this. Do they have a genny full of petrol inside their boat at the time of the BSS inspection, of course they dont.

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This really winds me up.  A CO alarm can only be used for the internal safety of those on board.  I was repeatedly told by the examiner of my boat this year that the BSS is there to prevent my boat causing issues to others like catching fire, so like others have said here, this seems yet another example of nanny state mission creep.  BUT the one thing that can really ruin your day and of those around you is if the boat blows up because of an internal gas leak.  I come from the yachting world and have never sailed a boat in recent years without a gas alarm.  They are cheap and easy to fit.  I normally put the sensor as low as possible and near the cooker.  When I mentioned this to the examiner he had no idea what I was talking about.  The reality is that all the incredibly detailed BSS gas safety precautions can't stop a leak happening if it wants to.  The only way to find out is to light a match (not a good idea) or fit an alarm.  Heres a simple one:  https://www.force4.co.uk/pilot-single-sensor-gas-alarm-12v.html?sqr=gas alarm&

I'm not trying to widen the debate or suggest that BSS should adopt these merely using it to illustrate, to my mind, why the BSS is losing its way.

 

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2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Why was the ventilation requirement mandatory some years ago? I seem to recall the justification was to avoid CO poisoning. Now it seems that as its advisory the BSS intends to introduce mandatory CO alarms. Seems muddled thinking to me.

You are confusing two separate matters. Ventilation on a boat will protect the ocupants of the boat - put crudely a first party matter.

 

This proposal is about third party protection which the consultation documents spells out in some detail.

55 minutes ago, larryjc said:

This really winds me up.  A CO alarm can only be used for the internal safety of those on board.

 

The consultation documents spell out in some detail that your statement is not correct

3 hours ago, dmr said:

?This is actually an interesting development as its another case of the "state" imposing rules to protect people from themselves,...

 

..............Dave

Dave, not so in this case. It is to protect 'others'

 

 

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Gas alarm... that's another hundred quid.  CO alarm... smoke alarm... nah.  Be simpler just to ban all LPG systems from the waterways along with the solid fuel stoves and smoking on board.

Actually, it would be simpler all round just to ban boats and leave CRT looking after cyclists and fish.  Then all the rest of the locks and old bridges could fall to pieces  in a picturesque manner.

The BSS is already a total farce and a pain in the arse.  I'm still smarting from being told (by a subsequent examiner) that the electrics, installed by a BSS examiner who specialised in boat electrics, couldn't be passed and would have to replaced.  The reccommended electrician quoted over a thousand quid, this for a two battery 12v system.  The rules change all the time in an apparently random manner - what's compulsory one year is advisory the next and vice versa.

Ah well, I've probably only got one more run through before I pack it in...

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2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

Nor a safety test every 4 years!

no just gas safety certification every year, fire safety inspection every year, full electrical test every 5 years,  and an energy efficiency check every 10 years which nobody looks at. But this is somewhat similar to hire/hotel/rented boats and encourages dependency on others for your safety. The lack of risk taking that children are brought up with in recent times, has produced a fairly large proportion of the adult population who cannot asses risk or see hazards hence the inappropriately placed genny etc they do not see their safety as their job and when things go wrong they must have someone to blame.

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4 hours ago, rowland al said:

Just one question Rob (and I’m not trying to shoot the messenger) - What has caused this sudden interest in adding smoke & CO2 alarms to the BSS?

 

It’s taken nearly 20 years! 

The evidence from the MAIB investigation, other incidents and additional reasearch we are doing  - all in the past 15 months - that shows it is a thrid party party issue.  And this has coincided with evidence coming through from the health sector that CO in small densities may still be harmful.

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18 minutes ago, Rob@BSSOffice said:

Dave, not so in this case. It is to protect 'others'

 

 

 

I did sort of say that in my humorous way by suggesting they should be fitted to protect the children and dogs ?.

Of course you could argue that some safety features are required to protect the emergency services from the unpleasant task of recovering bodies.

 

Whilst you are here...can I suggest that the BSS should specify a CO meter with a digital readout and these give a good indication of low level CO issues that could be a problem later and would be missed with a simple alarm type device. Our multi fuel stove makes zero CO, Doing toast in the grill is the main culprit but usually no more than about 12ppm.

 

..................Dave

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32 minutes ago, Detling said:

no just gas safety certification every year, fire safety inspection every year, full electrical test every 5 years,  and an energy efficiency check every 10 years which nobody looks at. But this is somewhat similar to hire/hotel/rented boats and encourages dependency on others for your safety. The lack of risk taking that children are brought up with in recent times, has produced a fairly large proportion of the adult population who cannot asses risk or see hazards hence the inappropriately placed genny etc they do not see their safety as their job and when things go wrong they must have someone to blame.

Apologies i was referring to non rental properties. 

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5 hours ago, dmr said:

Its all gets so difficult

 

BSS checklist:

 

Remove all crap from gas bottle locker and hide behind hedge so BSS man won't see it.

Borrow fire extinguishers from boat behind.

Borrow CO meter from boat behind.

Wipe all leaky fuel unions and remove dip trays from below unions (or whisky bottle if you have a Kelvin).

Remove covers from air vents.

Remove underwear that wife has wrapped round stove flue to warm up.

 

Did I forget anything?

 

..................Dave

Remove petrol generator from cabin step and plastic petrol can from bilge silly... how did you miss that

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@Rob@BSSOffice, can you tell from the posts on here that there is a fair bit of distrust in the BSS scheme? I think this is mostly because this forum has so many examples of BSS examiners making their own rules up to suit themselves, or out of lack of knowledge. Before trying to broaden the scope of your power, how about getting your own house in order by ensuring your examiners have better compliance with the existing rules of the scheme? It might then seem less like a “jobs for the boys” type scheme. In other words, right now it lacks credibility.

 

Of course there are plenty of good examiners incluidng the one who did our last BSS, but it also seems there are plenty of bad ones. Poor quality control!

Edited by nicknorman
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I have 2 CO alarms but both will need replacing as though they work, they are '-1' not the BS EN 50291-2 as l suspect many are.

 

I also see a lot of argument about placement arising as it it just not clear, for example in the consultation docs it states "wall-mounted at high level at least 150mm below the ceiling height" but later it states that for a sleeping area it should be "an additional carbon monoxide alarm must be provided, located in the “breathing zone”, i.e. near to a bed head." which in my case is going to be low level and not high level.  I can see me moving it up or down the wall for each different BSS examiner.

Also it states it should be "located between 1m and 3m (on plan view) from any stove" so for many narrow boats a second detector will be required as the other end is going to be too far away.

Again the proposed rules are not clear as to what constitutes a door - so if it has a big gap (say 1 inch) at top and bottom for ventilation is that a door for the purposes of this regulation.

 

Whilst I don't like more and more laws and guess this is really a done deal, at least get the words clear. 

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