Opinions on a 60' trad for sale?

[Alan de Enfield]

On ‎14‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 21:32, ivan&alice said:

And of course, look at other boats in the meantime, make the pilgrimage to Whilton and take a look around!

This sounds like a 'liveaboard' and worthy of further investigation.

 

 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This sounds like a 'liveaboard' and worthy of further investigation.

 

 

 

Ivan can't buy that one. There isn't a line for it on the spreadsheet.... 

 

 

 

 

[Stilllearning]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Ivan can't buy that one. There isn't a line for it on the spreadsheet.... 

 

 

 

 

They have decided against a cruiser stern boat, a decision I completely understand.

[mrsmelly]

4 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

They have decided against a cruiser stern boat, a decision I completely understand.

But the stern type even further reduces his choices does it not? Having owned and lived aboard each type of stern the worst for me was the dreaded trad stern. What did you dislike so much about your cruiser stern? I find them great in many ways. Prohibiting certain boats over such a minor thing is I think daft.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Having owned and lived aboard each type of stern the worst for me was the dreaded trad stern

Having had GRP Cruisers, Trad stern Steel NB's and Cruiser stern steel NB's the worst by far is the Trad.

 

Folks argue that the trad gives the most internal space - but if the engine is installed internally it takes the space up that a cruiser deck takes up - the only advantage is a 'drying room' is now available.

 

I always aim for a cruiser stern, but it is not the deciding factor, hence why my last was a 'Trad-Type' but with the engine & gearbox 1/2 inside & 1/2 under the rear deck. Not easy to do oil changes every 3 weeks (100 hours), but life is a compromise.

[jetzi]

33 minutes ago, Stilllearning said:

They have decided against a cruiser stern boat, a decision I completely understand. 

 

25 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But the stern type even further reduces his choices does it not? Having owned and lived aboard each type of stern the worst for me was the dreaded trad stern. What did you dislike so much about your cruiser stern? I find them great in many ways. Prohibiting certain boats over such a minor thing is I think daft. 

We haven't ruled out cruiser sterns at all. All we said was that we need a boat with enough internal space. For us that means a full length 70'er (trad or cruiser) or a well-laid-out 60' trad. A sub-60' cruiser stern is unlikely to provide the space we need. We need to be able to sit in separate areas while we're working - the boatman's cabin or engine room of the trads we've seen tends to hint at an excellent office.

The 58' Price Fallows boat sounds great and worth a look. I suspect she's too small for our needs, however.

 

It's not daft to have a set of minimum criteria. And we've looked at plenty of boats that on paper don't meet our criteria, in any event. There are a lot of boats for sale and it's helpful to narrow down your requirements.

[nicknorman]

We have a trad stern and wouldn’t have it any other way. But of course it depends on how you want to use the boat. If for social cruising in the summer, cruiser stern is fine as you can chugalong with your group of friends on the back. But if there are mostly just one or two of you and you like to cruise all year round even when it’s cold and or raining, trad is by far the best.

 

I would have thought that for a live aboard, a cruiser stern is a bit of a waste of space. We have a modern engine at the back, in the same position as it would be if it had a cruiser stern. The difference is there is load of storage above the engine boards, all my tools and other junk lives there. And it is in the “habitable space” so warm and dry, not cold and damp like a cruiser stern engine hole! We have a fair bit of space taken up with the well deck for a sociable outside space, but it’s far away from any noise and vibration.

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

 

We haven't ruled out cruiser sterns at all. All we said was that we need a boat with enough internal space. For us that means a full length 70'er (trad or cruiser) or a well-laid-out 60' trad. A sub-60' cruiser stern is unlikely to provide the space we need. We need to be able to sit in separate areas while we're working - the boatman's cabin or engine room of the trads we've seen tends to hint at an excellent office.

The 58' Price Fallows boat sounds great and worth a look. I suspect she's too small for our needs, however.

 

It's not daft to have a set of minimum criteria. And we've looked at plenty of boats that on paper don't meet our criteria, in any event. There are a lot of boats for sale and it's helpful to narrow down your requirements.

The only thing to bear in mind with a mid-engine trad is that for most of them, the back cabin floor is raised due to prop shaft underneath, giving severely reduced headroom. Depends how tall you are I suppose (I’m tall!) and whether you mind stooping /crawling!

[ditchcrawler]

6 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

 

We haven't ruled out cruiser sterns at all. All we said was that we need a boat with enough internal space. For us that means a full length 70'er (trad or cruiser) or a well-laid-out 60' trad. A sub-60' cruiser stern is unlikely to provide the space we need. We need to be able to sit in separate areas while we're working - the boatman's cabin or engine room of the trads we've seen tends to hint at an excellent office.

  

I don't think you would want to sit and work in my engine room unless you are a mechanic 

[jetzi]

55 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The only thing to bear in mind with a mid-engine trad is that for most of them, the back cabin floor is raised due to prop shaft underneath, giving severely reduced headroom. Depends how tall you are I suppose (I’m tall!) and whether you mind stooping /crawling!

We've only looked at one boat where the engine was not far in the stern, and she had a boatmans cabin with much reduced headroom. It would form a good office though because headroom isn't much required when sitting down, and it's well away from the bedroom meaning one can sleep while the other works - we need to make a lot of calls.
 

53 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I don't think you would want to sit and work in my engine room unless you are a mechanic 

I don't know, I found boats will a spacious engine room really exciting, and most of the engine rooms we've seen are quite insulated from the rest of the boat. I could happily sit and work inside an engine room, provided the engine was off at the time!

[mrsmelly]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

We have a trad stern and wouldn’t have it any other way. But of course it depends on how you want to use the boat. If for social cruising in the summer, cruiser stern is fine as you can chugalong with your group of friends on the back. But if there are mostly just one or two of you and you like to cruise all year round even when it’s cold and or raining, trad is by far the best.

 

I would have thought that for a live aboard, a cruiser stern is a bit of a waste of space. We have a modern engine at the back, in the same position as it would be if it had a cruiser stern. The difference is there is load of storage above the engine boards, all my tools and other junk lives there. And it is in the “habitable space” so warm and dry, not cold and damp like a cruiser stern engine hole! We have a fair bit of space taken up with the well deck for a sociable outside space, but it’s far away from any noise and vibration.

The only thing to bear in mind with a mid-engine trad is that for most of them, the back cabin floor is raised due to prop shaft underneath, giving severely reduced headroom. Depends how tall you are I suppose (I’m tall!) and whether you mind stooping /crawling!

Nick. If you'd saved up a bit longer you could have bought a whole boat instead of just part of one, that way the stern type matters not as you still have the extra ten feet or so of interior space. My 70 foot modern trad by the same builder you own was a great boat spoilt by the back end but at that time he only built trad back ends. A 70 foot cruiser or in this case semi trad gives a great inside space and a roomy back end to use the boat. I think people who prefer trads in some cases have never even owned any other stern type and in others actually buy so called trads because they think they are traditional and proper even though they don't buy a horse to pull them along.

Edited August 19, 2018 by mrsmelly

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I don't know, I found boats will a spacious engine room really exciting,

A bit of a revolutionary suggestion - but - have you considered other options ?

There are more boaty-boats about than 'skips-with lids'.

 

Maybe difficult on a (below) £45k budget but look at steel widebeams and Dutch barges.

 

Have you looked at any GRP boats - for your budget you'd be getting a very good quality and good sized boat. Our boat is 36 foot but has a separate forward cabin (with door - ideal for modifying into a permanent office), a separate dining room (second office), a lounge, a galley, 2nd toilet / shower room, rear bedroom, queen sized bed, with en-suite shower, and (separate) en-suite toilet /wash basin. Engines under the floor of the lounge.

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A bit of a revolutionary suggestion - but - have you considered other options ?

There are more boaty-boats about than 'skips-with lids'.

 

Maybe difficult on a (below) £45k budget but look at steel widebeams and Dutch barges.

 

Have you looked at any GRP boats - for your budget you'd be getting a very good quality and good sized boat. Our boat is 36 foot but has a separate forward cabin (with door - ideal for modifying into a permanent office), a separate dining room (second office), a lounge, a galley, 2nd toilet / shower room, rear bedroom, queen sized bed, with en-suite shower, and (separate) en-suite toilet /wash basin. Engines under the floor of the lounge.

Very nice kitchen innitt ?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, mrsmelly said:

Very nice kitchen innitt ?

Thank you - better now a decent fridge (12v Waeco) replacing the 'thirsty' Electrolux, and a Freezer (230v) have been added

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

A 70 foot cruiser or in this case semi trad gives a great inside space and a roomy back end to use the boat. I think people who prefer trads in some cases have never even owned any other stern type and in others actually buy so called trads because they think they are traditional and proper even though they don't buy a horse to pull them along.

I suspect there is some truth in that. We have a 70ft traditional, having not owned a cruiser stern,if looking again would probably dismiss a cruiser stern for no good reason. 

[doratheexplorer]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This sounds like a 'liveaboard' and worthy of further investigation.

 

 

That's a very nice looking boat but not right for a liveaboard IMO.  For starters, the storage space looks seriously lacking.  Looks like it's relying on the Mikuni for heating too, which could be a problem.  It looks like a very good buy for a couple to buy for summer cruising.

[Clodi]

21 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

We haven't ruled out cruiser sterns at all. All we said was that we need a boat with enough internal space. For us that means a full length 70'er (trad or cruiser) or a well-laid-out 60' trad. A sub-60' cruiser stern is unlikely to provide the space we need. We need to be able to sit in separate areas while we're working - the boatman's cabin or engine room of the trads we've seen tends to hint at an excellent office.

The 58' Price Fallows boat sounds great and worth a look. I suspect she's too small for our needs, however.

 

It's not daft to have a set of minimum criteria. And we've looked at plenty of boats that on paper don't meet our criteria, in any event. There are a lot of boats for sale and it's helpful to narrow down your requirements.

I had ruled out cruiser-stern narrowboats until I borrowed a cs for a couple of wet & windy Autumn weeks and my friends boat sported a Pram-Hood. What an eye-opener, no more wet coats/dogs/kids etc entering the cabin and, temperature permitting, extra living space. as well.

Reading the thread through again it is very apparent that some people do not like painted interiors & infer that the traditional-style is much better quality, I must admit I fall into the 'traditional type build is better' side of things BUT I must say, looking at the offerings at Crick this year the current style is' Modern Bungalow' all light ash veneer, and the fat-boats are more like floating apartments complete with wide-screen TVs above the king size bed but no-mention of the fresh-water tank capacity.

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, Clodi said:

it is very apparent that some people do not like painted interiors & infer that the traditional-style is much better quality, 

Almost.

From some comments in the thread, we can infer that people feel that paint can conceal poor work or poor condition. I remember an expression from a railway-modelling magazine many years ago, "A coat of paint can cover a multitude of sins", which is perhaps pertinent here.

[nicknorman]

20 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

Nick. If you'd saved up a bit longer you could have bought a whole boat instead of just part of one, that way the stern type matters not as you still have the extra ten feet or so of interior space. My 70 foot modern trad by the same builder you own was a great boat spoilt by the back end but at that time he only built trad back ends. A 70 foot cruiser or in this case semi trad gives a great inside space and a roomy back end to use the boat. I think people who prefer trads in some cases have never even owned any other stern type and in others actually buy so called trads because they think they are traditional and proper even though they don't buy a horse to pull them along.

Don’t forget I’ve been boating since before you were born. So whilst it is true that our Hudson is the first boat we’ve owned, I have a lot of experience of other boats. My mate Chris’s dad had a small day cruiser, a centre cockpit cruiser, a trad narrowboat and finally Chris bought a semi-trad narrowboat (because of his dogs and small children) and the last we used to borrow for a couple of weeks a year for about 15 years. We have hired plenty too, all of which were cruiser sterns. So it was with a lot of experience of different types of stern that we opted for a trad stern -mainly due to the all-weather aspect (and bearing in mind pram hoods are fugly)

[sirweste]

I've a Cruiser stern and I live aboard. I've not had anything else. The engine bay provides plently of space to store tools and general shite. I do find it a bit of pain to have to keep power tools inside (somewhere secure). Having been in trad boats I don't think they offer much more useable space than mine.

 

My boat is lay out differently to others though, with the kitchen at the back door, which makes the rear deck well used and there's not a problem with walkign through the bedroom with wet kit on.

 

I do wish there was somewhere to hang me wet / muddy mountain biking kit, which a trad stern would provide. But having been on other boats I'm not convinced that a trad increases overall available space.

 

With the common sense approach you're taking I don't think you'll end up with a bad boat.

I think you are perhaps putting a little too much stock in the boat having a full array of decent kit...? As point out with the solar, it doesn't cost a fortune to do some refitting of key elements.

Mine thoroughly lacked the feed electrical side. Needing a proper battery bank, charging system rewiring and charger installing. I think in total it cost me about £900 to sort it.

 

This forum generally seems adamant that you must get a survey. In the end it's up to your judgement. I bowed to the strong advice on here to get mine, I really didn't need to, should have trusted my instinct. Me and the seller went halves on the survey, if I pulled out of the sale he'd keep the report. 

This was my "advice on buying this boat" thread:

 

 

[rusty69]

On 18/08/2018 at 21:37, WotEver said:

Because it’s way too much hassle. We bought WotEver in The Midlands and several years later sold her through the same brokerage because it was convenient. 

WotEver 

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

WotEver 

Yes?

[cuthound]

4 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Don’t forget I’ve been boating since before you were born. So whilst it is true that our Hudson is the first boat we’ve owned, I have a lot of experience of other boats. My mate Chris’s dad had a small day cruiser, a centre cockpit cruiser, a trad narrowboat and finally Chris bought a semi-trad narrowboat (because of his dogs and small children) and the last we used to borrow for a couple of weeks a year for about 15 years. We have hired plenty too, all of which were cruiser sterns. So it was with a lot of experience of different types of stern that we opted for a trad stern -mainly due to the all-weather aspect (and bearing in mind pram hoods are fugly)

 I agree.

 

My first boating experiences were on "camping boats", ex-working boats with 12 bunk beds under the cloths, so mid-engines with a back cabin.

 

Then we hired and most were cruiser stern, although we did hire semi-trads from Teddesley a couple of times.

 

Then 23 years of semi-trad shareboats.

 

When we finally bought a boat we chose a modern, rear engines trad with an oversize hatch which works perfectly for the two of us. 

 

All depends on what you intend to use the boat for. All types have advantages and disadvantages, relative to each other.

[Neil2]

On 19/08/2018 at 12:29, Alan de Enfield said:

A bit of a revolutionary suggestion - but - have you considered other options ?

There are more boaty-boats about than 'skips-with lids'.

 

Maybe difficult on a (below) £45k budget but look at steel widebeams and Dutch barges.

 

Have you looked at any GRP boats - for your budget you'd be getting a very good quality and good sized boat. Our boat is 36 foot but has a separate forward cabin (with door - ideal for modifying into a permanent office), a separate dining room (second office), a lounge, a galley, 2nd toilet / shower room, rear bedroom, queen sized bed, with en-suite shower, and (separate) en-suite toilet /wash basin. Engines under the floor of the lounge.

I do think those of us who must navigate the narrow canals pay a high price doing so in the sense that imposing not just beam restrictions, but water/air draught as well, really does limit the options internally.   Personally if I had to live on a boat I'd rather accept the cruising restrictions and buy a proper river cruiser where you get a sense of space even within a modest length.  Much more for your money as well IMHO.  With £45k you could have your pick of any number of dutch steel river boats, or the best example of a Princess 37 say, or a Broom Continental.  On a tight budget £15k would get you a nice Seamaster 30 or a Princess 32 for under £10k and one of those has done the Rochdale canal.  

 

     

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

I do think those of us who must navigate the narrow canals pay a high price doing so in the sense that imposing not just beam restrictions, but water/air draught as well, really does limit the options internally.   Personally if I had to live on a boat I'd rather accept the cruising restrictions and buy a proper river cruiser where you get a sense of space even within a modest length.  Much more for your money as well IMHO.  With £45k you could have your pick of any number of dutch steel river boats, or the best example of a Princess 37 say, or a Broom Continental.  On a tight budget £15k would get you a nice Seamaster 30 or a Princess 32 for under £10k and one of those has done the Rochdale canal.  

 

     

Non of us " have " to live on a boat it's strictly a first choice scenario for us anyway. You are right in the fact that wider stuff is better to live on but inland in the uk to have any kind of range north to south it must be narrowbeam which is a great shame. Some of those Dutch steel jobbies are great but I could never visit the mucky or the greyhound by water again ? When I get realy old like Nick I may go wide again. ?

[Neil2]

13 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Non of us " have " to live on a boat it's strictly a first choice scenario for us anyway. You are right in the fact that wider stuff is better to live on but inland in the uk to have any kind of range north to south it must be narrowbeam which is a great shame. Some of those Dutch steel jobbies are great but I could never visit the mucky or the greyhound by water again ? When I get realy old like Nick I may go wide again. ?

Well you are taking me a bit too literally there but for the record there must be scores of folk who have no choice but to live on boats these days.  I visited one marina last year which was wall to wall divorced blokes...

 

I'm a bit the same though, I think there will come a time when we have finished with the narrow waterways and I fancy parading up and down the Cally in something like a Sealine F36. 

 

The Dutch really do know how to build boats though don't they, you can get a Stevens or a Linssen for a five figure sum these days and they are just the absolute bollox.