Death By Dangerous Cycling - New Laws

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

There is much in what you say and I have little argument with it. However, the extra issue for us as towpath users is that we share the space with the cyclists. Being overtaken by a cyclist from behind is a scary experience if you didn’t hear them coming and leads to anger being generalised against the whole group. It’s like trying to walk along a country road and having to push into the hedge to escape the SUV coming round the corner.

 

The other thing about cyclists is what we see here at Mercia, a whole pack of MAMILs turning up and occupying a big chunk of cafe space. No reason why they shouldn’t, of course, but it all contributes to the perception of them as a separate and irritating out-group.

There is an element of damned if you do, damned if you don't with that unfortunately. If the cyclist rides up behind and the pedestrian doesn't hear them coming they are  in the wrong for not using their bell. If they ride up behind ringing their bell it then morphs into 'Damn cyclists expect you to get out of their way, ringing their damn bells'.

 

In reality this is going to be a significant issue as more electric cars come onto the road since you cannot hear them coming either. When walking a country lane at the moment you hear an approaching car and step aside in anticipation of them not seeing you. In future you aren't going to hear the electric car at all until they are upon you, will it lead to more accidents? possibly.

[Momac]

I have had people in canoes overtake me on a canal. How dare they ?

[Momac]

Perhaps electric cars should be made to make engine noises through a loud hailer?

Believe me this is fitted on some Lexus cars but plays the sound through the car HiFi for the entertainment of the driver and passengers. 

[Keeping Up]

Many many years ago a friend of mine fixed a powerful loudspeaker behind his radiator grill; it could play any one of 3 different sounds, from continuous-loop tape cassettes (shows how long ago it was), by pressing one of three buttons on the dashboard. These were: the sound of a powerful American V8 engine (all he had was an old mini-van), or the sound of a screech of brakes followed by an almighty crash (to be used when slowing down gently and stopping at traffic lights or pedestrian crossings) or the sound of galloping horses' hooves (to be used when overtaking someone)

[Cheshire cat]

I note the queen is minus a physician. R.I.P. No news yet on whether or not a helmet would have saved the day.

[LadyG]

On 13/08/2018 at 17:41, MJG said:

I didn't say wearing a helmet protected you from a collision/impact with a car, so you wasted a lot Of time typing that little lot.

I often don't feel safe on a bike these days; with so many cars,  so many uneducated drivers,  air pollution, theft of bikes, and so few cycle friendly roads.

My Tipperary Driving Helmet will protect my head from impact with tarmac at speed, but nothing will save me from severe injury when some idiot turns left in front of me,  overtakes with a caravan, or opens a car door as I drive past a line of parked cars, 

I have to cycle defensively, which often means I have to stay well in to the road instead of hugging the gutter, it does not go down well with car drivers. Banning street parking would allow the provision of cycle lanes, it is a radical idea, but if we allow more and more vehicles on streets designed for the horse and cart, radical ideas are needed. 

The time has come to discourage cycling on public roads unless they have a well maintained cycle lane.

Edited August 17, 2018 by LadyG

[Sir Nibble]

2 hours ago, LadyG said:

I often don't feel safe on a bike these days; with so many cars,  so many uneducated drivers,  air pollution, theft of bikes, and so few cycle friendly roads.

My Tipperary Driving Helmet will protect my head from impact with tarmac at speed, but nothing will save me from severe injury when some idiot turns left in front of me,  overtakes with a caravan, or opens a car door as I drive past a line of parked cars,

I have to cycle defensively, which often means I have to stay well in to the road instead of hugging the gutter, it does not go down well with car drivers. Banning street parking would allow the provision of cycle lanes, it is a radical idea, but if we allow more and more vehicles on streets designed for the horse and cart, radical ideas are needed.

The time has come to discourage cycling on public roads unless they have a well maintained cycle lane.

Vehicles turn left in front of me all the time, turning left is a normal, legal, safe manoeuvre regardless of whether there is anyone behind so I can't really see the problem.

[Cheshire cat]

The problem is that some drivers misjudge the situation and turn left before they have completed the overtaking manoevre. Rather than follow the cyclist through the junction at the cyclists speed they just about get past the cyclist and then they slow and turn across the cyclists path relying on the cyclist to brake if a collision is to be avoided. It's probably only 1% of drivers that do it but that means it will happen on a high number of journeys. 

[bizzard]

Drivers opening their door just as your passing them can be nasty. I once going home to dinner from school on my bike slammed into one that was opened imediately in front of me so I couldn't swerve to dodge it.  It was the door of a Ford E83W van, the doors were big and heavy. No crash helmets in those days.

Edited August 17, 2018 by bizzard

[Sir Nibble]

40 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

The problem is that some drivers misjudge the situation and turn left before they have completed the overtaking manoevre. Rather than follow the cyclist through the junction at the cyclists speed they just about get past the cyclist and then they slow and turn across the cyclists path relying on the cyclist to brake if a collision is to be avoided. It's probably only 1% of drivers that do it but that means it will happen on a high number of journeys.

I see. Not so much in front as alongside. Given that the driver must be aware of the cyclist that's certainly dangerous driving by any standard.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, LadyG said:

I often don't feel safe on a bike these days; with so many cars,  so many uneducated drivers,  air pollution, theft of bikes, and so few cycle friendly roads.

My Tipperary Driving Helmet will protect my head from impact with tarmac at speed, but nothing will save me from severe injury when some idiot turns left in front of me,  overtakes with a caravan, or opens a car door as I drive past a line of parked cars, 

I have to cycle defensively, which often means I have to stay well in to the road instead of hugging the gutter, it does not go down well with car drivers. Banning street parking would allow the provision of cycle lanes, it is a radical idea, but if we allow more and more vehicles on streets designed for the horse and cart, radical ideas are needed. 

The time has come to discourage cycling on public roads unless they have a well maintained cycle lane.

Normal overtaking with a caravan shouldnt cause you a problem should it? It would only be an issue if they cut back in too soon and side swipe you off your bike, I can't speak for anybody else but I always am particularly mindful when coming back in and ensure both the car and caravan can safely pull back in no matter what I've overtaken. Horses are another one that require extra care when towing.

 

Clipping a car pulling back in is bad enough but to clip a horse or cycle rider with possible devastating consequences would be terrible.

[furnessvale]

1 hour ago, Cheshire cat said:

The problem is that some drivers misjudge the situation and turn left before they have completed the overtaking manoevre. Rather than follow the cyclist through the junction at the cyclists speed they just about get past the cyclist and then they slow and turn across the cyclists path relying on the cyclist to brake if a collision is to be avoided. It's probably only 1% of drivers that do it but that means it will happen on a high number of journeys. 

That is a problem and it is plain bad driving.

 

However, there is equally a problem of cyclists undertaking slow moving traffic, even where a vehicle is clearly indicating a left turn.  This is plain bad cycling.

 

George

[Machpoint005]

3 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

Vehicles turn left in front of me all the time, turning left is a normal, legal, safe manoeuvre regardless of whether there is anyone behind so I can't really see the problem.

I disagree. If your left-turn manoeuvre causes a bike behind you to brake, or worse, to hit you, it is your fault. That is what your left-hand door mirror is for.

I seem to remember that somebody on this forum was actually 'done' for careless driving when this happened.

1 hour ago, furnessvale said:

 

However, there is equally a problem of cyclists undertaking slow moving traffic, even where a vehicle is clearly indicating a left turn.  This is plain bad cycling.

 

I agree with this, but it is still the driver's responsibility to drive safely. The cyclist doesn't have a licence to say he or she is permitted to ride.

[MtB]

2 hours ago, furnessvale said:

However, there is equally a problem of cyclists undertaking slow moving traffic, even where a vehicle is clearly indicating a left turn.  This is plain bad cycling.

 

 

It is a weird feeling to be driving along the 20mph sections of the Embankment in London and being overtaken on both sides simultaneously by streams of cyclists breaking the speed limit. 

[LadyG]

3 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

Vehicles turn left in front of me all the time, turning left is a normal, legal, safe manoeuvre regardless of whether there is anyone behind so I can't really see the problem.

 

2 hours ago, MJG said:

Normal overtaking with a caravan shouldnt cause you a problem should it? It would only be an issue if they cut back in too soon and side swipe you off your bike, I can't speak for anybody else but I always am particularly mindful when coming back in and ensure both the car and caravan can safely pull back in no matter what I've overtaken. Horses are another one that require extra care when towing.

 

Clipping a car pulling back in is bad enough but to clip a horse or cycle rider with possible devastating consequences would be terrible.

A lo of drivers forget the van is wider than a bike, and they forget it is there. 

I don't know it is there, so if I have to squeeze over to let someone overtake it is likely I will then re establish my position as soon as the car has passed

3 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

Vehicles turn left in front of me all the time, turning left is a normal, legal, safe manoeuvre regardless of whether there is anyone behind so I can't really see the problem.

Its a problem if they have just overtaken me  because they are too impatient. I believe a lot of serious injuries and deaths are caused in towns and cities by lorries just knocking over the cyclist who is disregarded as they turn left. That is how RTI's happen.

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

It is a weird feeling to be driving along the 20mph sections of the Embankment in London and being overtaken on both sides simultaneously by streams of cyclists breaking the speed limit. 

Well, they need to be pretty fit cyclists to be cycling at over 20mph for any length of time.

This is just indicative of how dangerous it is to mix cyclists with motor vehicles.

I expect the motor traffic would be doing 20mph if they could.

Edited August 17, 2018 by LadyG

[KevMc]

52 minutes ago, Machpoint005 said:

I disagree. If your left-turn manoeuvre causes a bike behind you to brake, or worse, to hit you, it is your fault. That is what your left-hand door mirror is for.

I seem to remember that somebody on this forum was actually 'done' for careless driving when this happened.

I agree with this, but it is still the driver's responsibility to drive safely. The cyclist doesn't have a licence to say he or she is permitted to ride.

Surely the requirement to travel at a speed which allows you to stop applies as much to cyclists as it does to car drivers?  If I am indicating left and a car rams me up the boot when I slow down to make the turn that is the other driver's fault not mine ..... and the same must apply to cyclists.

[BruceinSanity]

The worst scenario is the high HGV cab without any way of seeing that there is a bike alongside when both are waiting at the lights. Lights change, both set off, lorry turns left wiping out the cyclist who has nowhere to go. If the driver was aware of the bike, he only needs to wait a few seconds to let it get clear before turning. Better design of cabs with a low level window in the passenger door is what’s needed.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, Machpoint005 said:

If your left-turn manoeuvre causes a bike behind you to brake, or worse, to hit you, it is your fault.

Eh?

 

If I’m driving down the road at 30mph and the car in front of me wishes to turn left I don’t expect him to do so sliding on all four wheels in order to execute the turn at 30, I expect him to slow down in order to perform the manoeuvre. This will cause me to brake. I won’t hit him because I’m not that bad a driver.

 

You would have us believe that if I did run into him that it’s his fault? I think you need to go back to driving school. 

4 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

The worst scenario is the high HGV cab without any way of seeing that there is a bike alongside when both are waiting at the lights.

How did the bike get there?  Did it suddenly materialise in that position or did the cyclist slowly move down the inside of the stationary traffic and put himself into that dangerous position?  If the traffic is stopped, so should the cyclist be. 

[furnessvale]

1 minute ago, BruceinSanity said:

The worst scenario is the high HGV cab without any way of seeing that there is a bike alongside when both are waiting at the lights. Lights change, both set off, lorry turns left wiping out the cyclist who has nowhere to go. If the driver was aware of the bike, he only needs to wait a few seconds to let it get clear before turning. Better design of cabs with a low level window in the passenger door is what’s needed.

If the HGV driver is indicating to turn left as he approaches a junction there are two possibilities.

 

1.  There are no cyclists alongside him as he stops.  As the lights change the driver is entitled to complete his move, safe in the knowledge that there are no cyclists within his turning circle.

 

2.  There ARE cyclists alongside as he stops.  The driver must allow for their presence as he restarts and allow them to clear before turning.

 

If a cyclist undertakes a vehicle with a left indicator flashing he takes his life in his own hands.

 

George

[LadyG]

40 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

If the HGV driver is indicating to turn left as he approaches a junction there are two possibilities.

 

1.  There are no cyclists alongside him as he stops.  As the lights change the driver is entitled to complete his move, safe in the knowledge that there are no cyclists within his turning circle.

 

2.  There ARE cyclists alongside as he stops.  The driver must allow for their presence as he restarts and allow them to clear before turning.

 

If a cyclist undertakes a vehicle with a left indicator flashing he takes his life in his own hands.

 

George

oh no............... I  think you'll find a dead cyclist will cause a lot of hassle/cost/trauma and emotion. Not sure of the average cost of a fatal RTI, but if drivers were forced to make payments they might be more aware. Obviously where the driver is 100% responsible and there is a death or serious injury,  he should lose the vehicle [even if not owned by him] and lose his licence forever.

 

The lorry driver is driving a lethal weapon, he cannot absolve himself from responsibility, if he can't see down his LHS, he is still responsible, just as if he is driving in to the sun and can't see ahead.

Supposing the indicators are not working, supposing he  puts them on after the cyclist has passed the tail lights?

Supposing he forgets/just lies?

If I consider there is ANY chance a driver will turn left at traffic lights,  I place myself in front of the driver, this presumably is why there are cycle lanes plus little parking bits for cyclists only at traffic lights. I make eye contact with drivers if they are likely to do something stupid, maybe this is overkill but if they can't see me, its quite likely they will drive on as though I am not there.

I've seen plenty of drivers driving as though they have the right of way, and they don't always.

Even as a sighted pedestrian I often have to step back from the kerb as a bus or lorry turns a sharp corner. The drivers assume pedestrians will give way.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by LadyG

[furnessvale]

15 minutes ago, LadyG said:

oh no............... I  think you'll find a dead cyclist will cause a lot of hassle/cost/trauma and emotion. Not sure of the average cost of a fatal RTI, but if drivers were forced to make payments they might be more aware. Obviously where the driver is 100% responsible and there is a death or serious injury,  he should lose the vehicle [even if not owned by him] and lose his licence forever.

 

The lorry driver is driving a lethal weapon, he cannot absolve himself from responsibility, if he can't see down his LHS, he is still responsible, just as if he is driving in to the sun and can't see ahead.

Supposing the indicators are not working, supposing he  puts them on after the cyclist has passed the tail lights?

Supposing he just lies?

If I consider there is ANY chance a driver will turn left at traffic lights,  I place myself in front of the driver, this presumably is why there are cycle lanes plus little parking bits for cyclists only at traffic lights.

But I mean, even a sighted pedestrian I often have to step back from the kerb as a bus or lorry turns a sharp corner. The drivers assume pedestrians will give way.

 

In the circumstances I have outlined the driver will not be making payments because it is not the drivers fault.

 

In the several other scenarios you have postulated, then the driver bears some responsibility.

 

George

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, furnessvale said:

In the circumstances I have outlined the driver will not be making payments because it is not the drivers fault.

 

In the several other scenarios you have postulated, then the driver bears some responsibility.

 

George

I  don't think you get the point, vehicular traffic is dangerous, roads are not designed for mixed traffic, it is the responsibility of the driver to take care.

Considerate driving is no faster or slower than hard driving in many situations. 

I have little respect for the so called professional driver after too many incidents which show that individual responsibility is something only some people accept or understand https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/mar/31/glasgow-bin-lorry-death-crash-driver-avoids-jail-for-new-incident

 I can pretty much guarantee that when I am tootling along at 55-60 on an A road, and am overtaken by someone who immediately has to cut in front of me due to oncoming traffic that that driver will be male and under 30. It happened yesterday: I followed him for three miles, in light traffic, all within the speed limits and safely,  we both came to a halt at the same traffic lights in congested urban traffic. So why did he feel the need to overtake me and cut in front, just stupid.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by LadyG

[Sir Nibble]

This is a bone of contention. The road traffic act and the highway code are there for all. I am aware cyclists are more vulnerable but that does not absolve them of the obligation to drive within the rules of the road. It is astonishing to me that some cyclists ride as if they are immortal and seem to believe that their safely is everyone's responsibility but their own. Anyone undertaking a vehicle with a left indicator flashing is best killed before they have a chance to breed. Relying for your life upon the existence of mirrors and an assumption that the driver expects idiots to be attempting suicide on their left is not a good idea. Best idea is to put the ns tyres against the kerb and block anything coming up the inside. Not of course that a cycle would overtake without the required 1.5 metre clearance.

[LadyG]

As a young driver I was taught how to drive fast and safely by a police driver instructor, but I was never up to his standards.

However the lesson I learned was to be conservative, and make my intentions clear. Make sure you are aware of your surroundings.

Do not cause accidents and do not get involved in them.

I have never had an accident, this is because I drive within my limits, with regard to road conditions etc. I can't remember when I last had an emergency stop, but maybe my memory is not as sharp  as it was when I got my licence in 1963.

 

Edited August 17, 2018 by LadyG