Overstaying

[Gareth E]

Does anyone know how many times overstaying the 14 day rule, in a 12 month period, might lead to problems renewing the licence?  

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Gareth E said:

Does anyone know how many times overstaying the 14 day rule, in a 12 month period, might lead to problems renewing the licence?  

 

Depends if you have been 'caught' (received a CC1 letter)

Were they authorised overstays ?

Do you make a habit of it ?

 

Its not - but if it were me it would be 2-strikes and your out

[PhilR]

13 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Does anyone know how many times overstaying the 14 day rule, in a 12 month period, might lead to problems renewing the licence?  

If you need to ask this question I have to assume that you are bending the rules already? CaRT is a charitable organisation and would welcome any contributions/donations from anyone who enjoys the benefit of free moorings. I don't personally think that this forum should be available to encourage ways to avoid paying a fair share towards the upkeep of our waterways. 

[Gareth E]

Only overstayed once in 5 years, that was because of a wrecked engine. I did receive a letter about limited movement over a 3 month period 4 years ago, but I addressed that. I have the opportunity to go abroad for 3 weeks at very short notice. Knowing the area and when the data loggers operate, I'd be logged twice during this period.

[PhilR]

1 minute ago, Gareth E said:

Only overstayed once in 5 years, that was because of a wrecked engine. I did receive a letter about limited movement over a 3 month period 4 years ago, but I addressed that. I have the opportunity to go abroad for 3 weeks at very short notice. Knowing the area and when the data loggers operate, I'd be logged twice during this period.

No problem. If you will be out of the country for 3 weeks just pay for a mooring somewhere convenient.

[sirweste]

4 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Only overstayed once in 5 years, that was because of a wrecked engine. I did receive a letter about limited movement over a 3 month period 4 years ago, but I addressed that. I have the opportunity to go abroad for 3 weeks at very short notice. Knowing the area and when the data loggers operate, I'd be logged twice during this period.

Either just get logged twice and get an email politely asking you to keep moving - unlikely out else will happen.

Or email CRT informing them that you'll be overstaying. I have work trips that take me out of the country for 3 / 4 weeks at times. I just moor up somewhere quite i.e. not a prime spot, and send an email. There's never any bother.

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Only overstayed once in 5 years, that was because of a wrecked engine

Did you not think it would be :

a) Courteous

b) A good idea

 

To inform C&RT of your engine breakdown and let them know you would be moving ASAP - they would have given you 'the OK' as they do to hundreds of such boat owners every year.

 

Here is an extract from a C&RT report on the K&A (only the K&A) :

Extended Stay Requests
26 requests for extended stay have been approved in the Local Plan area between 1 February and 30 April, 1 is pending, and no request has been declined.

 

It wasn't you that took your engine apart and every time C&RT contacted you, said you were waiting for a 'very rare', hard to obtain bolt, and three years later were still awaiting delivery ?

The poster that did it (if it wasn't you) seemed quite proud of himself.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

The only answer that can/should be given here (remember this is a public forum so you are already giving CaRT evidence for any future case) is that you should comply with the generally accepted conditions ie moving after 14 days to 'another place'. Anything else is clearly an attempt to discover 'how to get away with it'. Always a dangerous course as any zealous enforcement officer will now know where to go for an extra visit in order to initiate a watertight case.

 

Seeking permission to overstay in the guise of having a justified reason, but when you do no actually have one, will only lead in the long term to stricter interpretations that will make life harder for those who really need it.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Gareth E said:

Does anyone know how many times overstaying the 14 day rule, in a 12 month period, might lead to problems renewing the licence?  

Unless the "otherwise reasonable in the circumstances" exception applies, then you are not allowed to stay in one place for more than 14 days. So strictly, the answer to your question is "one". i.e. just one overstay might lead to problems.

Edited August 9, 2018 by David Mack

[Gareth E]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did you not think it would be :

a) Courteous

b) A good idea

 

To inform C&RT of your engine breakdown and let them know you would be moving ASAP - they would have given you 'the OK' as they do to hundreds of such boat owners every year.

 

Here is an extract from a C&RT report on the K&A (only the K&A) :

Extended Stay Requests
26 requests for extended stay have been approved in the Local Plan area between 1 February and 30 April, 1 is pending, and no request has been declined.

 

It wasn't you that took your engine apart and every time C&RT contacted you, said you were waiting for a 'very rare', hard to obtain bolt, and three years later were still awaiting delivery ?

The poster that did it (if it wasn't you) seemed quite proud of himself.

It wasn't me who had the breakdown you refer to. In my case, I rang CRT as soon as it became apparent that the engine wouldn't be fixed within 14 days. That was after about 10 days. I was in the spot for about 5 weeks. Despite me ringing them, and them assuring me that it was fine, I received 2 'please move on' emails. I guess this must be an automated system that an authorised overstay doesn't override.

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

It wasn't me who had the breakdown you refer to. In my case, I rang CRT as soon as it became apparent that the engine wouldn't be fixed within 14 days. That was after about 10 days. I was in the spot for about 5 weeks. Despite me ringing them, and them assuring me that it was fine, I received 2 'please move on' emails. I guess this must be an automated system that an authorised overstay doesn't override.

Well it sounds like you 'played it by the book'.

Its maybe too late now but I would have asked them to remove the 'letters' from your file as you will now always has a 'black-mark' against you.

[Gareth E]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Well it sounds like you 'played it by the book'.

Its maybe too late now but I would have asked them to remove the 'letters' from your file as you will now always has a 'black-mark' against you.

I did email the enforcement officer concerned when I received the email but didn't get a reply. I assume that the file is noted in some way, that the overstay was authorised. 

[Jim Riley]

I was planning to move my boat out of the stoppage area on the Rochdale, from my mooring at Summit down the Littleborough flight onto the navigable bit, before the stoppage  on the 6th August and leave it there. I'm planning to go on a trip early September. I considered it reasonable in the circumstances. I ran our Local Mooring Support Officer, who disagreed. Obviously her mindset hasn't changed with her new job title, from "enforcement" to "support"!

Given the closure through lack of water, the fact that I'm too busy to move the boat around, there are no safe places in the area to move to twice over the month, I found her attitude to be unreasonable. 

 

I was just going to do it and hope for the best but they closed a week early with no notice so I've ended up trapped till the canal opens again. 

However, when I do get out I look forward to seeing new signs, blue signs, shiny signs, everywhere, whether the old needed replacing or not! 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by Jim Riley

[Nightwatch]

During the 4 1/2 years since moving onboard and becoming permanent leisure cruisers, we have had need to overstay.

Gall Stones (hospital). Illness of close relative and sadly passing away, access to rail services. Can't remember any other times but there are probably instances when I have had to contact CRT and enforcement. I make the contact as soon as I know I may have to stay longer than usual. There has never been a problem. In Kintbury I was asked if I could move off the visitor moorings, I did. It's only fair.

I have found,by talking to others, that issues occur when contact has NOT been made by the boater. 

[john6767]

2 hours ago, Gareth E said:

Only overstayed once in 5 years, that was because of a wrecked engine. I did receive a letter about limited movement over a 3 month period 4 years ago, but I addressed that. I have the opportunity to go abroad for 3 weeks at very short notice. Knowing the area and when the data loggers operate, I'd be logged twice during this period.

Just put the boat in a marina that is the simplest and you will know that the boat is safe.

[nbfiresprite]

If your principal aim is to be to become permanent resident in a single council area without paying local taxes or obtain a long term mooring. Instead just moving the boat around every 14 days. It is not just the Navigation Authority that will be taking a interest, but the local council may take a view that you are conmiting council tax avoidance and take action againist you.

 

The boat (White Springer with the name and index number painted out) below belongs to a member of the ‘National Bargee Traveller Association’. The owner of this boat has been moving between the town moorings and the ones in West End Park every 14 days for over a year. He has refused to pay the overstaying charges. Not only are the council going after him for non-payment of the charges, but are taking action for council tax avoidance.

 

[MtB]

44 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

but are taking action for council tax avoidance.

 

 

That doesn't really ring true. How would I were I a CCer, pay council tax without a property for the council to levy it on?

[nbfiresprite]

15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

That doesn't really ring true. How would I were I a CCer, pay council tax without a property for the council to levy it on?

This is the e-mail from Fenland Council , I had contacted them about the overstayer pointing out that he had been moving between the town and park moorings for over a year. But then he was hardly CC but CM instead. He has stayed within the town limits for over a year.

 

Overstaying boats are nuisance and have frustrated both residents, businesses and other water users in the past few years.  As you know, Fenland has put in place a scheme on our moorings limiting the time which a boat may moor within a town.  The signs were only put in place recently with the intention of having a period of grace to ensure that mooring users were well aware of the new initiative and could not suggest that the Council was trying to make money by fining people from day 1. That period is almost over and we will start to proactively monitor the moorings from 1 August.

With regards to the boat you mentioned, I will pass details to the Council Tax team when we commence moorings monitoring for their information, who will investigate the tax avoidance.

 

P Hughes | Fenland District Council Leisure Services

Edited August 9, 2018 by nbfiresprite

[MtB]

That doesn’t really answer my question does it?

 

What mechanism exists for even a CMer to pay council tax? I suggest none.  

 

Has the council sent the white boat a council tax bill for them to pay? I doubt it. 

[mrsmelly]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

That doesn’t really answer my question does it?

 

What mechanism exists for even a CMer to pay council tax? I suggest none.  

 

Has the council sent the white boat a council tax bill for them to pay? I doubt it. 

There is no residential mooring so they will not be able to levy any charge as you say. Many people do not understand the difference between living on a boat and a residential mooring. I had a mooring in Leicester years ago and worried about being caught with a large bill so went to the council who told me my mooring ( which I paid for ) had no residential status and I owed them nothing. There was simply no mechanism to levy a charge against my boat as it had no address.

[Mike on the Wey]

I agree re council tax. The system is based on registered addresses, each with a unique reference number and each assessed by the District Valuer. Surely the local council can't just issue a bill for a random area of park, which may be a slightly different area of park on the next visit. 

[Midnight]

My good lady who knows about these things says Council Tax can only be raised on a property (or mooring) that is rated by the Valuation Officer.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Midnight said:

My good lady who knows about these things says Council Tax can only be raised on a property (or mooring) that is rated by the Valuation Officer.

 

Ok that settles it then, thanks. 

 

That nice P Hughes | Fenland District Council Leisure Services appears to be talking out of their butt!

 

 

 

[BWM]

The situation regarding council tax is absurd, on our last long term mooring you had no requirement to pay it but one of the moorers tried anyway, the answer was that there was no means of doing so.

 However, if you were unfortunate and needed to claim benefits (specifically help with mooring fees), this would include council tax being paid on your behalf. Oddly, once off benefits you are still required to pay! 

 The only other situation involved a couple wishing to obtain a local authority parking permit, they were told they needed to be council tax payers to apply, so they signed up to pay (how I don't know) and were subsequently refused a parking permit..

[nbfiresprite]

2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

There is no residential mooring so they will not be able to levy any charge as you say. Many people do not understand the difference between living on a boat and a residential mooring. I had a mooring in Leicester years ago and worried about being caught with a large bill so went to the council who told me my mooring ( which I paid for ) had no residential status and I owed them nothing. There was simply no mechanism to levy a charge against my boat as it had no address.

The moorings in Foxes and Floods Ferry are all non-residential, And clearly states that on the mooring agreement. Yet June last year the Council sent letters to the home address (Not the marina) of all marina moorers requiring that they produce a UK council tax bill in their name.  Any that were not able too, have now been charged council tax since July last year, Which includeds my boat as the council tax bill for my home in Dorset is not in my name.  They even manage to list me twice at the wrong address with a PO Box number that I never had.

 

Councils are looking at new sources of income and are looking to close loopholes.  Dealing with the Fenland Council tax people is taking a long time as thy only reply after nine weeks. Both Camdem and Tower Hamlets council tax units are looking at the liveaboard boats moored and not moving for months on end on the towpath along the Regent's canal.