Plumbing fittings

[Dr Bob]

I need to replace the water valve/ spring on my Sealand vacuuflush toilet....but looking at the pipework going into the valve, I'm a bit concerned about getting a leak. Have a look at the photos below.

A few questions:

1) I dont recognise the 2 push fit fittings to the left of the compression fitting. The boat was built in 2002 so reckon they are 16 years old. Can these be taken apart? I would like to fit an isolation tap between them. It it just a matter of twisting the fitting to release it?

2) The push fit fitting to the right, ie next to the compression fitting has a slight crack in it. This is not causing any issue now...ie no leaks at all....but if I disturb the system by removing the water valve, I guess this could cause the fitting to leak, so it will need to be replaced.

3) The compression fitting....at least I assume it is a compression fitting of some description....is that going to be easy to dismantle and reassemble on the new water valve without a problem? My plan was to unscrew the compression fitting nut, unscrew the water valve and then pull the valve off the pipe. I will either then reassemble with the new valve or if the the screw fitting onto the water valve is easy to replace, I will cut the pipe between the 2 push fit connectors and put in an isolation valve with new piping and fittings from that to the water valve.

4) One snag is that the piping I think is PVC and is now quite rigid compared to what it was probably like 15 years ago. Is it ok to use new push fittings on old PVC pipe?

Any ideas, thoughts or helpful suggestions?

[Cheshire cat]

I think all of the manufacturers of push fittings argue that they are one use only. The grey pipe looks like Polyplumb but the fittings don't. It may well unscrew which will allow you to do the job. Polyplumb fittings have a stainless steel barbed ring inside them which prevents them being pulled apart. I don't think the fact the pipe is old will make a difference. You can use plastic fittings with copper pipe.

 

When you screw them back together i would use a small amount of silicon sealant. Fernox LS-X is my favourite but it isn't cheap. It has got me out of a few scrapes over the years. 

[Sea Dog]

And in future get in there with a damp cloth or a vacuum cleaner before you take the photos Dr Bob - your letting the side down.

[nicknorman]

Looks like a tap connector to 15mm fitting at the toilet end. I would remove the valve and unscrew that fitting. If it is as I say, then I’d replace it with a new one, something like this: (presuming it’s a 1/2” tap connector https://www.screwfix.com/p/flofit-ftc1512-tap-connector-white-15mm-x/79957

 

it may be possible to pull the pipe out of the 90deg fitting by pushing the blue ring in whilst pulling the pipe, if not I’d cut the pipe and insert your service /isolation valve, then a short length of new pipe into the tap connector.

 

Yes you can use old pipe and new fittings, the caveat is that the enemy of a good seal on old pipe is scratching of the surface. So it depends on whether the pipe is scratched and certainly any paint etc must be removed. If possible use a proper plastic pipe cutter (cheap, from B&Q etc) to ensure a smooth, clean cut.

 

oh and I certainly wouldn’t put any silicone sealer anywhere near it. That is pure bodgery. Silicone lubricant, perhaps.

Edited August 1, 2018 by nicknorman

[Dr Bob]

10 minutes ago, Cheshire cat said:

I think all of the manufacturers of push fittings argue that they are one use only. The grey pipe looks like Polyplumb but the fittings don't. It may well unscrew which will allow you to do the job. Polyplumb fittings have a stainless steel barbed ring inside them which prevents them being pulled apart. I don't think the fact the pipe is old will make a difference. You can use plastic fittings with copper pipe.

 

When you screw them back together i would use a small amount of silicon sealant. Fernox LS-X is my favourite but it isn't cheap. It has got me out of a few scrapes over the years. 

Ok, thanks for that. Makes sense.

If the right hand push fitting is going to leak from the crack in it, I cut the tube between the 2 push fittings and put new fittings on, up to the water valve.......but what type of fitting connects the pipework to the water valve? Any ideas?

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Looks like a tap connector to 15mm fitting at the toilet end. I would remove the valve and unscrew that fitting. If it is as I say, then I’d replace it with a new one, something like this: (presuming it’s a 1/2” tap connector https://www.screwfix.com/p/flofit-ftc1512-tap-connector-white-15mm-x/79957

 

it may be possible to pull the pipe out of the 90deg fitting by pushing the blue ring in whilst pulling the pipe, if not I’d cut the pipe and insert your service /isolation valve, then a short length of new pipe into the tap connector.

 

Yes you can use old pipe and new fittings, the caveat is that the enemy of a good seal on old pipe is scratching of the surface. So it depends on whether the pipe is scratched and certainly any paint etc must be removed. If possible use a proper plastic pipe cutter (cheap, from B&Q etc) to ensure a smooth, clean cut

Thanks Nick, my last post crossed with yours.

I have emailed Leesan to ask what the fitting is but I agree, it looks like a tap connector. In that case it looks straightforward.

[Boater Sam]

Its a normal straight 1/2" BSP tap connector, push fit.

Don't forget the inserts in every fitting and don't cut with a hacksaw, the burrs cause leaks, use proper pipe slicer or a sharp knife.

A bit of silicone lube makes it easier to get the fittings full home on the pipe.

[philjw]

5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

it looks like a tap connector

If so make sure that the correct fibre washer is in place. These are specific to the job and have thinner sides than standard washers.

[nicknorman]

Just thinking you might struggle to get a pushfit isolation/service valve in the available length of pipe.  Check before buying, and compare with a compression fitting one which might be shorter. If using a compression fitting on plastic pipe I try to get copper olives (not brass, as mostly supplied these days - which are much harder) and use metal pipe inserts to protect against crushing. Don’t over-tighten the compression fittings as you can easily crush the pipe,

Edited August 1, 2018 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

36 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I need to replace the water valve/ spring on my Sealand vacuuflush toilet....but looking at the pipework going into the valve, I'm a bit concerned about getting a leak. Have a look at the photos below.

A few questions:

1) I dont recognise the 2 push fit fittings to the left of the compression fitting. The boat was built in 2002 so reckon they are 16 years old. Can these be taken apart? I would like to fit an isolation tap between them. It it just a matter of twisting the fitting to release it?

2) The push fit fitting to the right, ie next to the compression fitting has a slight crack in it. This is not causing any issue now...ie no leaks at all....but if I disturb the system by removing the water valve, I guess this could cause the fitting to leak, so it will need to be replaced.

3) The compression fitting....at least I assume it is a compression fitting of some description....is that going to be easy to dismantle and reassemble on the new water valve without a problem? My plan was to unscrew the compression fitting nut, unscrew the water valve and then pull the valve off the pipe. I will either then reassemble with the new valve or if the the screw fitting onto the water valve is easy to replace, I will cut the pipe between the 2 push fit connectors and put in an isolation valve with new piping and fittings from that to the water valve.

4) One snag is that the piping I think is PVC and is now quite rigid compared to what it was probably like 15 years ago. Is it ok to use new push fittings on old PVC pipe?

Any ideas, thoughts or helpful suggestions?

https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-pemstc1516wp-tap-connector-15mm-x-/17338?tc=NA4&ds_kid=92700020953280168&ds_rl=1249799&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249481&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIytSN8PLL3AIVhbHtCh2uVQKmEAQYBSABEgIzJPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=COP9gfjyy9wCFYmoUQod8kwAxQ

 

 

[Dr Bob]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

Just thinking you might struggle to get a pushfit isolation/service valve in the available length of pipe.  Check before buying, and compare with a compression fitting one which might be shorter. If using a compression fitting on plastic pipe I try to get copper olives (not brass, as mostly supplied these days - much harder) and use metal pipe inserts to protect against crushing. Don’t over-tighten the compression fittings as you can easily crush the pipe,

I had thought of that. There isnt a lot of room. I will look to see if there are any isolation valves with compression fittings on. Thanks for the tip on copper olives.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I had thought of that. There isnt a lot of room. I will look to see if there are any isolation valves with compression fittings on. Thanks for the tip on copper olives.

The other possibility is an isolation valve which is 15mm one end, and a 1/2” tap connector the other - would go straight onto the toilet valve. https://www.screwfix.com/p/straight-service-valve-15mm-x/58008

 

but you might have to change the length of the pipe so maybe back to the original problem of whether the pipe can be removed from the 90deg elbow fitting. Worth measuring up though! If the new fitting is longer, you can always trim something off the pipe, it’s just hard to trim something onto the pipe to make it longer if the new fitting is shorter!

Edited August 1, 2018 by nicknorman

[Dr Bob]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The other possibility is an isolation valve which is 15mm one end, and a 1/2” tap connector the other - would go straight onto the toilet valve. https://www.screwfix.com/p/straight-service-valve-15mm-x/58008

 

but you’d probably have to change the length of the pipe so maybe back to the original problem of whether the pipe can be removed from the 90deg elbow fitting. Worth measuring up though!

I was looking at

https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-15esotp-emergency-shut-off-tap-15mm/13133#product_additional_details_container

rather than the one you posted as yours needs a screwdriver to turn off. The one on this link doesnt show the length though.

Which ever way I do it, it looks like some careful measurement to get the right lengths of tubing - if using push fit - so that I can fit the water valve. If using compression fittings then I have a bit more flexibility on length of tubing. Is there any suitable more flexible pipe I can use ....or even a 360° loop?

[Tony Brooks]

25 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I had thought of that. There isnt a lot of room. I will look to see if there are any isolation valves with compression fittings on. Thanks for the tip on copper olives.

Just to reinforce what Nick says. If you use compression fittings onto plastic and do not want leaks try to get metal inserts but this may not be so critical on this job because its cold water.

[Dr Bob]

Thanks Tony. Yes, metal inserts are on the list.

[nicknorman]

15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I was looking at

https://www.screwfix.com/p/jg-speedfit-15esotp-emergency-shut-off-tap-15mm/13133#product_additional_details_container

rather than the one you posted as yours needs a screwdriver to turn off. The one on this link doesnt show the length though.

Which ever way I do it, it looks like some careful measurement to get the right lengths of tubing - if using push fit - so that I can fit the water valve. If using compression fittings then I have a bit more flexibility on length of tubing. Is there any suitable more flexible pipe I can use ....or even a 360° loop?

You can of course get flexi hose in various lengths with tap fitting one end and 15mm pushfit the other. You can even get those with a shut off valve, lever operated. https://www.screwfix.com/p/hep2o-push-fit-flexible-tap-connectors-with-valve-15mm-x-x-300mm-2-pack/3805r just bear in mind that the minimum bend radius is quite big.

 

Not sure what advantage that would give though. You don’t want a lot of piping wobbling about unsupported in an area where someone’s foot might go

[Dr Bob]

49 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

And in future get in there with a damp cloth or a vacuum cleaner before you take the photos Dr Bob - your letting the side down.

As a rule,I never put my head down there to look!

We are booked in to get  a new bathroom put in in November so that is my excuse. I may leave changing all the fittings until then if I can get away with just replacing the water valve.....but if the cracked fitting needs replacing, at least I now know how to do it. I have ordered the water valve and should get it next week so will report back on progress then.

[Boater Sam]

Be very careful when screwing brass nuts onto the plastic water valve, use the correct fibre washer and don't cross thread it else it will never go back on. Finger tight and 2 flats.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Boater Sam
Clarified

[ditchcrawler]

49 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I had thought of that. There isnt a lot of room. I will look to see if there are any isolation valves with compression fittings on. Thanks for the tip on copper olives.

I have one similar to this and its 95mm long when fitted

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have one similar to this and its 95mm long when fitted

Thanks for the dimensions Brian. Very useful.

1 hour ago, Boater Sam said:

Be very careful when screwing brass nuts onto the plastic water valve, use the correct fibre washer and don't cross thread it else it will never go back on. Finger tight and 2 flats.

Thanks Sam. All noted.

[rusty69]

On 01/08/2018 at 13:18, Dr Bob said:

helpful suggestions

Rip it out and get a cassette bog, by order of mrsmelly! 

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, rusty69 said:

Rip it out and get a cassette bog, by order of mrsmelly! 

........but, but, but, .......it's still going to have a water valve for flushing............and its bad enough stopping for water points so I couldn't stand having to find Elsan points as well.........and we've only just trained the duck to use this one.

Maybe I should get a composting one?

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

........but, but, but, .......it's still going to have a water valve for flushing............and its bad enough stopping for water points so I couldn't stand having to find Elsan points as well.........and we've only just trained the duck to use this one.

Maybe I should get a composting one?

Excuses, excuses! 

Just now, rusty69 said:

and we've only just trained the duck to use this one.

Maybe I should get a composting one?

Do composting ducks exist? I've only ever heard of decomposing ducks. 

[Jon12345]

I think they are " Osma Gold " fittings.

 

I can't remember if they are removable or not.

 

But If my memory is any good there will be 4 small holes in the blue ring.

 

If these are pushed, pulled or twisted to remove with a tool or not, I'm not sure.

 

Ebay would probably be your best bet for new old stock fittings etc.

 

Good luck.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Jon12345

[Dr Bob]

Thanks Jon, I will investigate.

[MtB]

Just now, Dr Bob said:

Thanks Jon, I will investigate.

 

I think John is right. I didn’t post because I couldn’t remember the brand! 

 

Yes there is a tool to dismantle the fitting but it is insanely expensive iirc.