Bristol narrowboat long term renting?

[Tasemu]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just a small correction - it is NOT a movement of 20-30 miles per year, it is a RANGE of 20 - 30 miles, so 20 miles North, 20 miles South, 20 miles East, 20 miles West,  you will probably cover some hundreds of miles per annum.

 

Others will say that you just need move 1km per week, (but keep going forward) for say 30km, then turn around and start coming back at 1km per week.

 

The 1st is what C&RT would like you to do and the second is what (some) boaters would like to do.

 

If you were somewhere like Birmingham which has 'dozens' of canals radiating out of the city you can be in 100s of different 'places' every two-weeks but never more than a few miles from the centre (They don't point out that Birmingham has more canals than Venice for nothing !!)

 

At the end of the day it is what C&RT (and the courts) decide is correct when they revoke your licence and take you to court, the question is are you complying with the law ?

 

...the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

 

 

That is awfully vague from C&RT... Makes me a little worried they would take my boat from me just because I want to work to pay it off. :S

Edited July 31, 2018 by Tasemu

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tasemu said:

That is awfully vague from C&RT... Makes me a little worried they would take my boat from me just because I want to work to pay it off. :S

C&RT cannot be any more definite as they do not have the power to make / change the law. A distance is not specified in the law.

The law says "will bona fide navigate for the period of the licence" so it comes down to the interpretation of 'Bona Fide', and 'navigation'.

 

Most would suggest that 'navigate' indicates a journey, and bona-fide means 'made in good faith'.

 

It comes down to what the Judge thinks in YOUR court case.

 

There are contrary opinions where one Judge said :

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

That is awfully vague from C&RT... Makes me a little worried they would take my boat from me just because I want to work to pay it off. :S

They won't.  They will take your boat off you because you are trying to avoid the law for your convenience.

 

Continuous cruising is easy - you can do it without an engine simply by pulling the boat 100 yards along the towpath every day.  This is enough to "satisfy the Board" that you are complying.

 

Staying in the same area because it's handy for work or near the pub etc. is what gets people into trouble.   We CC, and have so far this year covered over 400 miles linear distance on 12 different canals in a continuous journey. 

 

A couple of years ago we needed to be in a specific area for an extended period, so we covered about 20 miles range on one canal over 12 months.  We probably did 200 miles backwards and forwards over that range throughout the year, and deliberately did not always use the same few moorings.

 

We have never once had an email/text from CRT suggesting we are not moving enough.

 

 

 

 

[Tasemu]

55 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

They won't.  They will take your boat off you because you are trying to avoid the law for your convenience.

 

Continuous cruising is easy - you can do it without an engine simply by pulling the boat 100 yards along the towpath every day.  This is enough to "satisfy the Board" that you are complying.

 

Staying in the same area because it's handy for work or near the pub etc. is what gets people into trouble.   We CC, and have so far this year covered over 400 miles linear distance on 12 different canals in a continuous journey. 

 

A couple of years ago we needed to be in a specific area for an extended period, so we covered about 20 miles range on one canal over 12 months.  We probably did 200 miles backwards and forwards over that range throughout the year, and deliberately did not always use the same few moorings.

 

We have never once had an email/text from CRT suggesting we are not moving enough.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

C&RT cannot be any more definite as they do not have the power to make / change the law. A distance is not specified in the law.

The law says "will bona fide navigate for the period of the licence" so it comes down to the interpretation of 'Bona Fide', and 'navigation'.

 

Most would suggest that 'navigate' indicates a journey, and bona-fide means 'made in good faith'.

 

It comes down to what the Judge thinks in YOUR court case.

 

There are contrary opinions where one Judge said :

 

The judgement in the case of CaRT v Mayers states that repeated journeys between the same two places would be 'bona fide navigation' if the boater had specific reason for making repeated journeys over the same stretch of canal. HHJ Halbert also stated that any requirement by CaRT to use a substantial part of the canal network was not justified by Section 17(3)(c)(ii) of the British Waterways Act 1995 because the requirement to use the boat for bona fide navigation is 'temporal not geographical'.

 

Thanks for the info! Ideally I would like to find a cheap mooring somewhere, although it appears every marina is completely booked out between bath and bristol. If there are no marinas and CC'ing between bristol and bath is not an option. Are there any options? Thanks for all this advice by the way people, this is honestly helping a ton.

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

 

Thanks for the info! Ideally I would like to find a cheap mooring somewhere, although it appears every marina is completely booked out between bath and bristol. If there are no marinas and CC'ing between bristol and bath is not an option. Are there any options? Thanks for all this advice by the way people, this is honestly helping a ton.

This is not a recommendation just a 'heads up' as to a possibility that some have used -it has been called a 'ghost mooring' but in my mind a ghost-mooring is a mooring that doesn't exist, or one mooring that has been 'sold' to a multiple number of boats. If you have a mooring (in a cheap part of the country) that is paid for and available should you decide to use it then you have a legal 'home mooring'.

 

Take a mooring at some obscure place (and its cheap) then refer any questions to the Judge that said :

 

6:3 There are clear anomalies in both positions, CRT clearly regard the occupation of moorings by permanently residential boat owners who do not move very much as a significant problem (see paragraphs 3.5 and 3.6 above). However, neither the statutory regime in subsection 17(3) nor the guidelines can deal with this problem. A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

[Tasemu]

8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

This is not a recommendation just a 'heads up' as to a possibility that some have used -it has been called a 'ghost mooring' but in my mind a ghost-mooring is a mooring that doesn't exist, or one mooring that has been 'sold' to a multiple number of boats. If you have a mooring (in a cheap part of the country) that is paid for and available should you decide to use it then you have a legal 'home mooring'.

 

Take a mooring at some obscure place (and its cheap) then refer any questions to the Judge that said :

 

6:3 There are clear anomalies in both positions, CRT clearly regard the occupation of moorings by permanently residential boat owners who do not move very much as a significant problem (see paragraphs 3.5 and 3.6 above). However, neither the statutory regime in subsection 17(3) nor the guidelines can deal with this problem. A boat which has a home mooring is not required to be “bona fide” used for navigation throughout the period of the licence, but neither is it required to ever use its home mooring. The act requires that the mooring is available, it does not say it must be used. The guidelines also have this effect. The boat is still subject to the restriction that it must not stay in the same place for more than 14 days but there is nothing whatever to stop it being shuffled between two locations quite close together provided they are far enough apart to constitute different places. If those who are causing the overcrowding at popular spots have home moorings anywhere in the country the present regime cannot control their overuse of the popular spots. Such an owner could cruise to and fro along the Kennet & Avon canal near Bristol and the home mooring could be in Birmingham and totally unused.

That is quite interesting, though I think i'd feel a bit too guilty to abuse that. I have just got off the phone with a lovely lady from saltford marina. She says they have a turnover of narrowboats throughout the year and the prices aren't horrible, £3152 for a 40ft narrowboat for the year. She said that if I do some CC'ing for a while and check in every 3 weeks she believes I should not have too much trouble. There are also marinas in bath and portavon.

 

Does this feel correct to you all?

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

That is quite interesting, though I think i'd feel a bit too guilty to abuse that. I have just got off the phone with a lovely lady from saltford marina. She says they have a turnover of narrowboats throughout the year and the prices aren't horrible, £3152 for a 40ft narrowboat for the year. She said that if I do some CC'ing for a while and check in every 3 weeks she believes I should not have too much trouble. There are also marinas in bath and portavon.

 

Does this feel correct to you all?

Did you use the dreaded R-word (residential) ?, or did you say you were a 'heavy-user' ?, or is that the 'leisure' rate.

 

Again just so you know what you may be getting into, our marina (a chain of 20+ all around England) will only let you have a 'leisure' mooring is you can provide evidence that it will not become your 'main, or only, residence', this is done by producing a Council tax bill in your name. If you cannot, then you must take a 'residential mooring' (if they have one available - if not, then tough !!)

Portavon and Bath marinas are part of this group (BWML)

 

From 'THE RULES'

Leisure Mooring  This product is for customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation. It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period. BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina. 

 

Portavon Mooring Fees                

Grade 2 mooring Cost £202 per metre per annum.

A Riverside mooring is (per berth) £6,045

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Tasemu]

22 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Did you use the dreaded R-word (residential) ?, or did you say you were a 'heavy-user' ?, or is that the 'leisure' rate.

 

Again just so you know what you may be getting into, our marina (a chain of 20+ all around England) will only let you have a 'leisure' mooring is you can provide evidence that it will not become your 'main, or only, residence', this is done by producing a Council tax bill in your name. If you cannot, then you must take a 'residential mooring' (if they have one available - if not, then tough !!)

Portavon and Bath marinas are part of this group (BWML)

 

From 'THE RULES'

Leisure Mooring  This product is for customers wishing to maximise their leisure time allowing unlimited leisure use within the marina throughout the mooring contract, utilising their boat summer and winter is an expectation. It is not permitted to stay on the vessel for more than 28 consecutive days whilst the vessel is moored in the marina in any one contract period. BWML may from time to time request proof of residency away from the marina. 

 

Portavon Mooring Fees                

Grade 2 mooring Cost £202 per metre per annum.

A Riverside mooring is (per berth) £6,045

 

 

They say it is a liveaboard contract, it acts as a full residential i believe, you get mail etc. They do have leisure mooring but they expect you to take the boat out for cruises etc and it's cheaper. Is it bad to have a residential?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Tasemu said:

They say it is a liveaboard contract, it acts as a full residential i believe, you get mail etc. They do have leisure mooring but they expect you to take the boat out for cruises etc and it's cheaper. Is it bad to have a residential?

If you are living on board (as I think is your plan) then you should have a residential mooring - saves you being 'kicked out' for spending too many nights on board.

 

So - Residential mooring = GOOD.

[Tasemu]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

If you are living on board (as I think is your plan) then you should have a residential mooring - saves you being 'kicked out' for spending too many nights on board.

 

So - Residential mooring = GOOD.

Excellent! Well they are charging £78.80 per ft. It has parking and is within riding distance on my motorcycle into bristol. It appears that I might be able to get a spot if I keep an eye out and call every few weeks. Until then I could cruise around and bring my bike behind. It sounds doable... Though I feel like I must be missing something as this has been a rollercoaster so far haha.

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Excellent! Well they are charging £78.80 per ft. It has parking and is within riding distance on my motorcycle into bristol. It appears that I might be able to get a spot if I keep an eye out and call every few weeks. Until then I could cruise around and bring my bike behind. It sounds doable... Though I feel like I must be missing something as this has been a rollercoaster so far haha.

If you are DEFINITELY going to do it, then get your mooring secured (and paid for) even if its before you get a boat - it may take you some months to get the right one, get it surveyed etc sort out the finance and back from Inverness (Joke !!)  to Bristol.

 

Have you investigated finance ?

It is not easy to get a marine mortgage these days, and you'll only get a 'personal loan' from your bank and they might not be happy with it being used to purchase a boat.

 

Explain the situation to the Marina and take a 'nominal' 40 foot mooring and explain it may eventually be a 50 footer (or whatever)

[MtB]

7 hours ago, Tasemu said:

 

 

Thanks for the info! Ideally I would like to find a cheap mooring somewhere, although it appears every marina is completely booked out between bath and bristol. If there are no marinas and CC'ing between bristol and bath is not an option. Are there any options? Thanks for all this advice by the way people, this is honestly helping a ton.

 

The things that make a mooring cheap are a half mile walk from the nearest road/parking place, no other facilities, and/or being in a part of the country miles from civilisation. So a mooring on the Rochdale will be way cheaper than one in the Bristol area.

 

Other options? There is one short-cut nobody ha mentioned so far. Buy a boat already moored in one of the Bristol area marinas you mention, and take over the mooring with the boat. You won't be in any position to be picky about the boat though.

 

As far as legit residential is concerned, probably less than 0.1% of moorings are formally residential, and of those that are, probably only 0.1% are vacant and available to rent so the dice are almost impossibly heavily loaded against you finding one. Buying a boat already on a residential mooring is GREAT way to improve these odds. 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Laurie Booth]

6 hours ago, Tasemu said:

That is quite interesting, though I think i'd feel a bit too guilty to abuse that. I have just got off the phone with a lovely lady from saltford marina. She says they have a turnover of narrowboats throughout the year and the prices aren't horrible, £3152 for a 40ft narrowboat for the year. She said that if I do some CC'ing for a while and check in every 3 weeks she believes I should not have too much trouble. There are also marinas in bath and portavon.

 

Does this feel correct to you all?

Trouble is, Saltford is a crap place to live.

[Tim Lewis]

10 hours ago, Laurie.Booth said:

Trouble is, Saltford is a crap place to live.

My parents first house after they got married was in Saltford!

 

Mind you is was 65 years ago

[Tasemu]

15 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The things that make a mooring cheap are a half mile walk from the nearest road/parking place, no other facilities, and/or being in a part of the country miles from civilisation. So a mooring on the Rochdale will be way cheaper than one in the Bristol area.

 

Other options? There is one short-cut nobody ha mentioned so far. Buy a boat already moored in one of the Bristol area marinas you mention, and take over the mooring with the boat. You won't be in any position to be picky about the boat though.

 

As far as legit residential is concerned, probably less than 0.1% of moorings are formally residential, and of those that are, probably only 0.1% are vacant and available to rent so the dice are almost impossibly heavily loaded against you finding one. Buying a boat already on a residential mooring is GREAT way to improve these odds. 

 

Fair point, though with my current work situation the marina costs are still fairly cheap compared to my current rent situation, even in bristol area. $4000 a year works out to not very much per month.

[Laurie Booth]

1 hour ago, Tim Lewis said:

My parents first house after they got married was in Saltford!

 

Mind you is was 65 years ago

Did they like it or did they move away.

12 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Fair point, though with my current work situation the marina costs are still fairly cheap compared to my current rent situation, even in bristol area. $4000 a year works out to not very much per month.

Is this Bristol in the USA?

[Tasemu]

15 minutes ago, Laurie.Booth said:

Did they like it or did they move away.

Is this Bristol in the USA?

Oops sorry I mean't brit bucks, I've spen't too long in Australia and forgotten the currencies hah.

[Tasemu]

Ouch, just finished talking to pegasus finance (apparently they are the people to talk to about boats). I am going to need 3 years living and working history in the UK before I can apply for a loan. Currently 1/3 of the way there. Guess i'm gonna just perv on boats online for 2 more years, that gives me time to research I suppose. BUMMER!

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

Ouch, just finished talking to pegasus finance (apparently they are the people to talk to about boats). I am going to need 3 years living and working history in the UK before I can apply for a loan. Currently 1/3 of the way there. Guess i'm gonna just perv on boats online for 2 more years, that gives me time to research I suppose. BUMMER!

Marine finance is difficult to get these days - hardly anyone does it anymore.  Personal loans are available from all the usual places up to £25k depending on your credit scoring, and I know a few people who have taken this route.  These are not tied to the boat unlike the old marine "mortgages".

 

Look at the advice given in all the boat buying threads - basically go look at some boats, the more the merrier. 

[dmr]

Living on a boat and CCing is a great way of life, we have done it for 10 years. but...........

Living on a boat and CCing is not so easy if you also have a full time job, and is especially difficult in the Bath to Bradford on Avon region. CCing on the River Avon is not viable for a new boater with a job.

Living on a boat in a marina can be very difficult in some cases, you have a landlord not bound by any real regulations and marina owners are an odd bunch.

Living on a boat in any decent style is not usually cheaper than living on the land.

Boats are NOT an investment, they are a money bit, houses are a very good investment.

Do NOT get involved in ghost moorings and other legal loopholes and legal challenges. Do you want to loose your boat in a court case just to satisfy somebody else's legal curiosity? Just because one judge has said something does not mean that the judge in your case will say the same, this is the nature of our legal system.

 

Of course with the right job (or brave self employment) computer programming can be very easily done from a boat anywhere in the country ?

 

................Dave

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, Tasemu said:

Ouch, just finished talking to pegasus finance (apparently they are the people to talk to about boats). I am going to need 3 years living and working history in the UK before I can apply for a loan. Currently 1/3 of the way there. Guess i'm gonna just perv on boats online for 2 more years, that gives me time to research I suppose. BUMMER!

I did warn you in post #36.

 

Either get a personal bank loan or be cash buyer.

You'd be surprised what effect a carrier bag full of cash has on your negotiations with a 'willing seller'.

[X Alan W]

The problem a good few folk have now days connected with living afloat are the word cheap & a pair of rosy coloured glasses it has become neither It's as if not more expensive boats un like houses lose value not gain it running costs are not cheap etc & then you have the possible winter problems Don't get me wrong it's a super way to live but doesn't work out the cheap option it used to be & with more rules & restrictions being placed it"s not the laid back life it used to be