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Cost of rewiring


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Hi,

 

I have been having trouble with the electrics on my boat. Basically the problem is that some wires are loose and therefore the ignition often doesn't work. Also the battery do not seem to charge. I had two electricians look at this and they both adviced rewiring. Now I was wondering how big a job that would be. Today I received a quote saying 5-6k which would cover 14 days of work. Another guy who I know had good knowledge of the matter said it's a one day job.

I understand it's hard to say without all the specifics but what would be a reasonable price for rewiring?

My boat is 45 feet, engine is a BMC 1.8. I cruise so not shoreline. The busy is currently moored in central London.

Also, if anyone can recommend a mechanic who could take in this job that would be great.

Thanks for your help.

 

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8 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Hi,

 

I have been having trouble with the electrics on my boat. Basically the problem is that some wires are loose and therefore the ignition often doesn't work. Also the battery do not seem to charge. I had two electricians look at this and they both adviced rewiring. Now I was wondering how big a job that would be. Today I received a quote saying 5-6k which would cover 14 days of work. Another guy who I know had good knowledge of the matter said it's a one day job.

I understand it's hard to say without all the specifics but what would be a reasonable price for rewiring?

My boat is 45 feet, engine is a BMC 1.8. I cruise so not shoreline. The busy is currently moored in central London.

Also, if anyone can recommend a mechanic who could take in this job that would be great.

Thanks for your help.

 

The big problem with getting folks in London, is the ability for them to get to you and be able to park their van full of equipment - they will need to go back and forwards umpteen times a day for bits and pieces.

More and more 'engineers' are pricing the quotes so they either don't get the work, or they at least will make some profit if they do get the job.

 

Realistically the job can only be priced by looking at it (it may need all of the boat walls & lining removing - or it may not, the headlining / roof may need to come down to get into the lights - or - it may not).

 

Have you considered moving the boat to outside the M25 where you will have a much wider choice of electricians (and prices) ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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I'm aware of the problem of parking, but that should at max add a couple of hundreds. The quote I received was for complete rewiring which I assume means removing walls and roof to get to the wiring which would explain the 5-6k. The problem is each electrician will have to look at it first which will cost me as well.

 

I can't move the boat because of this problem as I can't start it. Though I could jumpstart it I would prefer to have it done here.

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Get some more quotes Erik. It sounds a bit OTT to rewire the whole boat for an engine start and starter battery recharging issue.  Everything involved there is in the engine hole and none of it is that complex - the same circuitry (maybe even the same engine ;) )  is in a dumper truck! Now if your domestic circuits like your lights, etc,  don't work either,  then there's a bit more ore involved, but you don't mention that in the original post.

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We had the electrics resided in our boat but only battery, alternators and isolators nothing from the fuse box to internal wiring.  This was around £600 and was done over a few days.

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5 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Get some more quotes Erik. It sounds a bit OTT to rewire the whole boat for an engine start and starter battery recharging issue.  Everything involved there is in the engine hole and none of it is that complex - the same circuitry (maybe even the same engine ;) )  is in a dumper truck! Now if your domestic circuits like your lights, etc,  don't work either,  then there's a bit more ore involved, but you don't mention that in the original post.

Yeah, that's what I thought. When the electrician came over this morning he sounded like it was a simple job, even showed me how to get the parts like inverter cheaply. And then I got this quote.

The lights work when the batteries are charged. The only issue might be that something seemed to be draining current as the starter battery was draining quite a lot even without using it and the leisure batteries went completely flat even without using the lights a lot.

 

How do I get quotes? Most of them want to first have a look which will cost me 100 pounds for call out so I try to limit that.

2 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

We had the electrics resided in our boat but only battery, alternators and isolators nothing from the fuse box to internal wiring.  This was around £600 and was done over a few days.

I think that is what I need as well. Was this in London?

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2 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Yeah, that's what I thought. When the electrician came over this morning he sounded like it was a simple job, even showed me how to get the parts like inverter cheaply. And then I got this quote.

The lights work when the batteries are charged. The only issue might be that something seemed to be draining current as the starter battery was draining quite a lot even without using it and the leisure batteries went completely flat even without using the lights a lot.

 

How do I get quotes? Most of them want to first have a look which will cost me 100 pounds for call out so I try to limit that.

How are you, at present, recharging the batteries?

 

Bod

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24 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

Yeah, that's what I thought. When the electrician came over this morning he sounded like it was a simple job, even showed me how to get the parts like inverter cheaply. And then I got this quote.

The lights work when the batteries are charged. The only issue might be that something seemed to be draining current as the starter battery was draining quite a lot even without using it and the leisure batteries went completely flat even without using the lights a lot.

 

How do I get quotes? Most of them want to first have a look which will cost me 100 pounds for call out so I try to limit that.

I think that is what I need as well. Was this in London?

No, this was in Gloucester.

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How were you charging the batteries before?

Many electrical "problems" have been caused by poor charging regimes.

Expecting 1 hours charging per day, to run lights,tv, phone/ipad charging, fridge, and electric kettle, all day.

Just doesn't work.

 

Bod

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on most boat the biggest (often overlooked) is the fridge

 

if it's one of the older 3 way fridges (12v / 240v / gas) then that can easily wipe out most decent boat battery banks in a little over a day, an older bank may be a few hours

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I suggest only having the whole boat rewired if there is actually a problem with the ancillary wiring - lighting, pumps etc. Otherwise it sounds like you just need the engine room rewiring which is a much easier job as there is no need to remove panelling/ run hidden wires etc. Even in London I would have thought £1k max. Plus new batteries of course, and I suppose it’s possible that you would need a new alternator.

 

But getting any tradesmen in London is difficult, getting good ones is very difficult! London boaters Facebook group for a recommendation perhaps?

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30 minutes ago, Bod said:

How were you charging the batteries before?

Many electrical "problems" have been caused by poor charging regimes.

Expecting 1 hours charging per day, to run lights,tv, phone/ipad charging, fridge, and electric kettle, all day.

Just doesn't work.

 

Bod

I've had the boat for only a few weeks. It had a mooring before so electricity from the shore. Hence why the wiring want a problem then.

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I suggest only having the whole boat rewired if there is actually a problem with the ancillary wiring - lighting, pumps etc. Otherwise it sounds like you just need the engine room rewiring which is a much easier job as there is no need to remove panelling/ run hidden wires etc. Even in London I would have thought £1k max. Plus new batteries of course, and I suppose it’s possible that you would need a new alternator.

 

But getting any tradesmen in London is difficult, getting good ones is very difficult! London boaters Facebook group for a recommendation perhaps?

Lighting and pumps were working fine, so yeah I think just rewiring the engine room should be more realistic.

I have tried the Facebook group but couldn't get anyone.

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Could you put up some photos of the batteries, wiring, alternator, and general engine installation.

A list of what electrical items you have on the boat, will help.

Have you had a boat before?

If not, I fear you are in for a very steep learning curve.

You say the current batteries are shot, do you have any method of charging them?

 

Bod

PS

At the beginning of this part "Boat Building & Maintenance" there is a Sticky topic, Battery charging primer, very well worth reading. 

Edited by Bod
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I have a 12v fridge (not sure if it's a 3 way as mentioned above, need to check), lights obviously and a microwave but I never really use it. Phone and computer need charging as well of course.

 

I did not have a boat before. It's a bit of an adventure though manageable. But fixing the wiring is not something I can do myself.

 

I bought a new starter battery but try not using it until I know for sure I'll be able to charge it. The leisure batteries need replacing, they have no voltage at all.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, Erik.narrowboat said:

I've had the boat for only a few weeks. It had a mooring before so electricity from the shore. Hence why the wiring want a problem then.

Lighting and pumps were working fine, so yeah I think just rewiring the engine room should be more realistic.

I have tried the Facebook group but couldn't get anyone.

Well anyway you know what to do if you ever find yourself out of work - go on a course and set yourself up as a boat electrician! Then mug people out of £5k for a few days work!

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A 3-way fridge can run from gas, 12v or mains power. They have a means of selecting which power source to use - the older type have a rotary knob, newer ones you do it with a push button and an lcd display. They are also pretty silent save a slight roar from the flame if running on gas. 12v compressor fridges are much more efficient, and you will be able to hear the gentle whirr of the compressor when on.

 

You are absolutely right to resist buying new batteries until charging has been resolved. Although the wiring looks a mess, I’ve seen worse! Probably there is one bad connection and/or the alternator isn’t charging. Seems slightly OTT to replace all the wiring rather than finding out what is wrong and fixing just that. And if it is the alternator, fixing the wiring won’t fix it!

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I know next to nothing about wiring and electrics but unless your electrician is using gold wires with diamond encrusted insulation he is seriously extracting the urine. As Nick says, rewiring probably not needed just get a good boat electrician to diagnose and fix the immediate problem.

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Having had an extensive re-wiring of my 1.8 BMC together with cabling to most of the domestic services - pumps etc. (but excluding lighting) it took 40 hours. I've no idea what the hourly rate for a job like this would be in London.  On top of that you should budget for about £1K for materials (including new batteries and alternator).

As you can see the wiring was a mess!

 

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Edited by koukouvagia
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3 minutes ago, koukouvagia said:

Having had an extensive re-wiring of my 1.8 BMC together with cabling to most of the domestic services - pumps etc. (but excluding lighting) it took 40 hours. I've no idea what the hourly rate for a job like this would be in London.  On top of that you should budget for about £1K for materials (including new batteries and alternator).

As you can see the wiring was a mess!

P1210206.JPG.39ac2a0da247b00db285bced13fd0f7c.JPG

 

I think an alternator isn't very expensive, mine might even work haven't tested. Leisure batteries should be no more than 60-80. I think your wiring seems worse though I'm not qualified to judge.

From what your saying I reckon I should be able to have it done for under 1k (without domestics)

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The problem with this sort of repair for a professional is twofold, and neither is anything to do with the actual repair itself. One or both of these these two problems will possibly be causing these ludicrous quotes.

 

1) As soon as one lays hands on an old and untidy installation like this, one is likely to end up 'owning' the electrical system for life. The customer will call for every real and imagined fault occurring in the future and manifest itself as a guarantee call, and the tradesperson will need to visit, diagnose it for free, then try to explain to a possibly sceptical customer why it is not a fault with the original repair. All without being paid for his time. Wherever in London the boat is when the call(s) come. Getting involved is therefore quite a big risk for the tradesman.

 

2) The customer themselves may have unrealistic expectations and/or come across as a bit demandy and/or seem to expect everything they had in a house to be there on a boat and not grasp the fact that the power used on a boat is limited and needs to be generated and replaced after being used. This can be a result of not being very experienced at boating, but whatever the reason, the tradesperson feels its best not to get involved as they will end up being the unpaid teacher again.

 

So two ways forward for the tradesperson. Either say it all needs ripping out and replacing (so he knows the installation is sound), or price really high in the hope the quote is not accepted. I suspect both these are happening here.

 

I don't think tracing and fixing the reason for the charging not working is much more than a couple of days' work (two trips across London to visit the boat accounting for most of the time). But did I see mention of a 3kW inverter dropped casually in somewhere in the thread? If so the design of the whole could be hopelessly inadequate which might be why complete re-wiring was recommended.

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Hi,

Interesting pictures, looks as though you have a lot of connections to the terminals, I would clean them up (posts and internal face of the connectors) and check these first of all and see if that helps, at least it might get you underway. Not sure where you are in London, but I suspect trades bump the price up hoping they don't get the job. (sorry crossed with post by MtB).

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Its a bit of a rats nest but I have seen plenty worse. There seem to be some less than best practice with the alternator wiring but I can't see enough detail to be sure but even so at the worst it would only reduce the charge, not stop it entirely. What I take to be the split charge relay (last photo, bottom right, blue box) does not have the capacity for a typical boat so may have burned its contacts.

 

With posts like this when new boaters seem to have got themselves in over their head I  sometimes offer to have a look & diagnose FOC and possibly fix the immediate fault if near my home but there is NO WAY I would get involved in London and there is no way I would offer on a boat where it could not be started.

 

I suspect there is a fair chance that there is nothing wrong with the electrics at all apart from failed batteries and something simple enough to fix. However until you can get the engine running and get some voltage readings we can never know. Remember if a battery is disconnected nothing on the boat can discharge it and if it is discharging itself its a faulty battery.  Faulty domestic batteries are far to often caused by inadequate charging until a new boater finally gets it into their head that you need several hours engine charging a day, not one or two.

 

I would not ;eave a battery charger permanently connected  with clips (can't see the charger so no idea of quality), and  an old/ cheap/faulty  one might even contribute to discharging a battery if left connected when not charging.

 

I too suspect the advice & quotes may well be I don't want this job" based. I think you may do better by forgetting the rewiring and getting the immediate problem(s) fixed.

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Untidy and neglected as it is Erik, the photo appears to show that the wiring is reasonably sized, particularly the main battery cables, so probably reusable. 

 

If you know enough to be able to isolate the batteries safely and not get yourself into a mess, I'd be tempted to mark all cables and connections so you can reconnect them where they were, then remove them (individually or in a group if you're sure). Clean or replace the crimped connections, possibly cutting the cable back a bit to have fresh copper if you have the length, and then re-run them so as to reorganise the "snakes wedding" into something tidier and more organised.  As suggested earlier, just cleaning all the connections will be a big help. Having done all that, you could still find you have issues, but these will be actual faults now rather than who knows what, and anyone coming to look won't find a neglected hotch potch any tradesman in his right mind would run a mile from. 

 

You undoubtedly need to budget for new batteries, and proving your system will be impossible with duff batteries in circuit. With the wiring sorted as above, you could fit them and temporarily connect them to see where you now are and do further fault finding, disconnecting them to protect them after that if faults remain.  Do always leave them fully charged.

 

I suspect the fault finding is beyond your capabilities, but improved clean wiring all clearly marked and a fresh set of batteries ready to go will give anyone (tradesman or helpful mate with skills) a fighting chance.  Remember I started out by saying: "If you know enough to be able to isolate the batteries safely and not get yourself into a mess"!

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