legality

[Stewart]

I'm keen to buy a canal boat but I know nothing about them. Can I just buy one in, say, London which is where many seem to be for sale, and move it to, say Chesire? And are there Council fees and water authorities to pay? I am aware it will cost me to move it. I want to use it with my family, but I am not rich (alas...) and would like to rent it too for holildays. Does that require lots of paperwork/license/fussing with Council etc?... Many thanks for any advice - all very welcome.

[Nut]

where you say many for sale in London, you will find many more for sale outside London up north down south all over the place!! what's your budget and how many berths etc ,what type of narrowboat

will you keep it in a marina etc , more info would be good then the experts will be along very shortly.

[Athy]

Welcome, Stewart.

 

Once you have bought a boat, purchased an annual licence for it from CART (about £700 to £1,000 depending on length), and insured it (cheaper), you can move it around anywhere you like on CART's waterways which cover much of the country, from Somerset up to Lancashire and across to the Home Counties.

 

As for renting it out, it's a complicated question but the simple answer is "Don't".

[matty40s]

Council and water authorities are not things which usually cross boaters paths, Canals and Rivers Trust are. You would need to purchase a licence for the boat as soon as you take ownership- to be on the canal(and another one for the Thames as well if it is coming from there).

You would normally stick the boat in a marina when you aren't using it...more costs include a 4 yearly Boat Safety Cert, insurance and bi-annual blacking amongst others. .

Hiring it out is a whole different kettle of fish involving enhanced safety checks on an annual basis and more comprehensive insurance cover.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, matty40s said:

Council and water authorities are not things which usually cross boaters paths, Canals and Rivers Trust are. You would need to purchase a licence for the boat as soon as you take ownership- to be on the canal(and another one for the Thames as well if it is coming from there).

You would normally stick the boat in a marina when you aren't using it...more costs include a 4 yearly Boat Safety Cert, insurance and bi-annual blacking amongst others. .

Hiring it out is a whole different kettle of fish involving enhanced safety checks on an annual basis and more comprehensive insurance cover.

... and a more expensive CRT licence.

[Tony Brooks]

and an operating base approved by CRT.

 

Any private boat you buy might need a fair bit of expense to get it to pass the enhanced "hire boat" Boat Safety test. Then who sorts out any breakdowns (and there definitely will be some). A support contract or adhoc engineers will all add to your costs.

 

As others have said simply do not go into hiring.

[Machpoint005]

Don't forget that B-O-A-T is an acronym.

[David Mack]

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/getting-afloat would be a good place to start reading to find out what you need to know about owning a boat.  This covers the Canal and River Trust waterways, which is most of them, but you could also take a look at https://www.gov.uk/topic/environmental-management/boating for the Environment Agency rivers.

Edited July 26, 2018 by David Mack

[Peter X]

Maybe you just gave buying a boat in London and moving it to Cheshire as a random example, but it tends to happen the other way round. It's generally thought that you're likely to get better value for money buying a boat in the Midlands or north than you will in London. Basically, my advice is just try to find a value for money boat wherever (on the main connected system) it is, then move it yourself (if you have the time, and preferably with one or more crew who know what they're doing) to where you need it to be. You can pay a professional boat mover to do it, or have it craned out, taken by road and craned back in (the only way to move a widebeam between north and south), but both options cost more.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

and an operating base approved by CRT.

 

Is that true if you only have 1 boat for hire? I seem to recall that requirement is relaxed for a single boat.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Is that true if you only have 1 boat for hire? I seem to recall that requirement is relaxed for a single boat.

I thought it was but maybe it has been relaxed.

[cuthound]

One of CWDF's members, Quaysider, operates his boat by advertising it as a hotel boat. I understand this is simpler than offering it for self hire, perhaps he can comment on CRT's requirements?

[Neil Smith]

If you really want to hire it out then get the relevant permission from crt and hire insurance then look for an ex hire boat that should comply.

 

Neil

[howardang]

56 minutes ago, Neil Smith said:

If you really want to hire it out then get the relevant permission from crt and hire insurance then look for an ex hire boat that should comply.

 

Neil

I agree that in the first instance these sort of questions should be directed towards the authorities who set the rules. Forums will come up with a diversity of responses, some of them helpful but some not quite so useful.  I wonder if sometimes these questions are sometimes asked by those who already know the answers!

 

Howard

Edited July 29, 2018 by howardang

[Mac of Cygnet]

Stewart asked his question 3 days ago and last visited yesterday.  Newcomers to the forums sometimes don't realise that people appreciate acknowledgement of their advice, and it's good manners too.  David Mack, as so often, gave the most useful reply, and would probably like to know if it has been followed up.

[Richard10002]

40 minutes ago, Mac of Cygnet said:

Stewart asked his question 3 days ago and last visited yesterday.  Newcomers to the forums sometimes don't realise that people appreciate acknowledgement of their advice, and it's good manners too.  David Mack, as so often, gave the most useful reply, and would probably like to know if it has been followed up.

I often have a query, ask a question, get lots of good information, then take ages to sort things, or even do nothing for ages.

 

i always try and give some thanks and feedback, but sometimes it doesn’t appear for months.

 

I agree it would be good if someone new gave some thanks, but 3 days may be a bit quick for some. I also agree that some people nip in, ask a question, get their answers, and clear off without a by your leave.

[Detling]

My understanding is that to hire the boat out it has to have a mooring base, not sure if handovers have to be there but it can't be cc.  this is to try to reduce the 'coffin' boats that were being let out under the radar.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Detling said:

My understanding is that to hire the boat out it has to have a mooring base, not sure if handovers have to be there but it can't be cc.  this is to try to reduce the 'coffin' boats that were being let out under the radar.

From the business Licence T&Cs :

 

15. Self-Drive Holiday Hire (SDHH)
15.1 You must have a Home Mooring for the Boat, unless it is kept out of the water when not on hire.

15.2 Where you operate a fleet of hire Boats you must have enough mooring space to accommodate the maximum number of boats that may be at the mooring at any given time without obstructing the navigation, lock landings, locks and bridges and without placing the Boat against the towpath or on designated visitor moorings.

15.3 You may only use Trust facilities (as detailed in 15.4.1 to 15.4.5) to operate hire boats with our express permission. If you wish to operate two or more Self-Drive Hire Boats that are kept in the Waterway you must have access to third party or your own directly managed facilities. If these are within a marina or otherwise available to you via a third party, we will ask you to provide evidence that the third party has given you their consent for this use.

15.4 You must be able to demonstrate to us that you have the right to access the following facilities:
15.4.1 suitable customer parking
15.4.2 fresh drinking water
15.4.3 refuse disposal facilities
15.4.4 a means of disposing of sewage from the boat (where relevant)
15.4.5 a safe place from which you can board and disembark customers

15.5 You must give each and every hirer full and comprehensive guidance on what is required of them whilst in control of the Boat (the Handover). You shall ensure that the Handover is delivered by a competent person each time the Boat is hired out. You must ensure that the hirer is capable of using the boat safely.

15.6 You must provide on the boat:
15.6.1 a copy of the British Waterway’s and Environment Agency Boater’s Handbook or other similar publication that adequately describes how to safely navigate the Waterway and operate structures such as locks and bridges. This should be made available to hirers, together with a copy of the Canal & River Trust’s Boaters DVD in advance of their hire (if possible).
15.6.2 a manual describing how to operate all the equipment on board the boat that includes an emergency contact number that provides a 24 hour call out service.
15.6.3 where it is not possible to place manuals on the boat due its size, you must ensure that the hirer has received all the instruction necessary to operate the craft safely and has details of how to contact you in case of emergency.

15.7 You must provide us with a copy of the following documents, and copies of these should also be available on board the Boat for inspection and for customer reference
15.7.1 an insurance certificate that shows you are insured for your business activity as required under clause 5 above;
15.7.2 confirmation that the Boat meets the Boat Safety Hire Boat requirements;
or a Boat Safety Scheme Exemption Declaration as required under clause 4 above
15.7.3 a copy of your British Marine Federation Handover Audit Certificate or a copy of your full Handover Procedure document.

15.7.4 a copy of your Gas Safety Certificate

15.8 Once out on hire, the Boat may cruise on any Waterway(s) covered by its Licence and may use services provided by the Trust such as water points, rubbish compounds, pump outs and visitor moorings under terms that are no less favourable than those offered to a private licence holder.

15.9 You may not change the Home Mooring or servicing arrangements of a Self Drive Holiday Hire Boat without the written consent of your Authorised Officer.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Stewart]

I most sincerely thank everyone for their helpful comments; as well as being helpful, it conveys a likeable sense of community among canal boat owners. It looks like the best thing would be to buy one that is already kitted out for hiring, though the rules and regs don't seem unreasonable/too onerous, but maybe I'm being naive...

[ditchcrawler]

19 minutes ago, Stewart said:

I most sincerely thank everyone for their helpful comments; as well as being helpful, it conveys a likeable sense of community among canal boat owners. It looks like the best thing would be to buy one that is already kitted out for hiring, though the rules and regs don't seem unreasonable/too onerous, but maybe I'm being naive...

Can you instruct the hires to an acceptable standard, take care of turn round servicing and any breakdowns?

[Stewart]

Hi Brian, that is all stuff I would have to learn. Breakdowns would probably be the most worrying as I would be unlikely to be near the boat - live in Scottish Borders.  What is the procedure if someone breaks down? It's not like at the roadside where you can just call AA etc I guess?... I envisage understandably irate guests stranded and bored for a day while I drive down...

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Stewart said:

Hi Brian, that is all stuff I would have to learn. Breakdowns would probably be the most worrying as I would be unlikely to be near the boat - live in Scottish Borders.  What is the procedure if someone breaks down? It's not like at the roadside where you can just call AA etc I guess?... I envisage understandably irate guests stranded and bored for a day while I drive down...

 

By whatever means you need to provide a 24 hour call out service - if they run out of gas at 02:00 hours you need someone who can get a new cylinder delivered and connected up before :

a) The freeze to death

b ) Want to cook their breakfast.

 

Remember they could be 'miles' from a nearest road so you need to be able to carry spare batteries, gas, parts etc down a tow-path.

 

The requirement :

15.6.2 a manual describing how to operate all the equipment on board the boat that includes an emergency contact number that provides a 24 hour call out service.

 

Having one hire boat is not commercially viable because of all the infrastructure you need to put in place (which will be the same as having half-a-dozen boats)

 

The answer you got in post #3 is the best one.

[Tony Brooks]

I expect River Canal Rescue will take on your breakdowns at a cost. They are like the AA but for inland boats. I very very much doubt it would be a good idea to wait for a breakdown and then start phoning around to try to get an engineer out to the boat.

 

The normal hire boat procedure is for the hirers to contact the company they rented from and then the company decides how to proceed. If the delay is unreasonable then good customer relations may indicate a partial or full refund of the hire cost.  It is also normally the company's duty to arrange for and pay for any transport costs the customer is required to pay as a result of the breakdown.

 

Perhaps of more importance is how you deal with boats that come back with faults the customer has been putting up with. This will probably require someone with knowledge and skill enough to diagnose the fault and the resolve it and that may require a stock of readily available spares.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

I expect River Canal Rescue will take on your breakdowns at a cost. They are like the AA but for inland boats. I very very much doubt it would be a good idea to wait for a breakdown and then start phoning around to try to get an engineer out to the boat.

 

The normal hire boat procedure is for the hirers to contact the company they rented from and then the company decides how to proceed. If the delay is unreasonable then good customer relations may indicate a partial or full refund of the hire cost.  It is also normally the company's duty to arrange for and pay for any transport costs the customer is required to pay as a result of the breakdown.

 

Perhaps of more importance is how you deal with boats that come back with faults the customer has been putting up with. This will probably require someone with knowledge and skill enough to diagnose the fault and the resolve it and that may require a stock of readily available spares.

 

 

And of course the boat is booked out with another party in 2-days time - will it be repaired in time ? Will it break down again ? Will they expect loss of amenity compensation if you cancel the day before they arrive ?

[Stewart]

Thanks for that, both gentlemen. Is it possible to rent a mooring near a repair outfit? Are there such things?....