Rank these boat builders!

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, Athy said:

Good information, Tonka.

Gas locker in the engine room? Has that ever been legal or safe?

Well it passed the boat safety test. we put a lid on it as it did not have one at first. As far as I know the gas locker is still there and I don't know where else you could put it without moving the water tank

[Movin' on]

1 minute ago, Tonka said:

Well it passed the boat safety test. we put a lid on it as it did not have one at first. As far as I know the gas locker is still there and I don't know where else you could put it without moving the water tank

Isn’t it more about ventilation to the outside than actual location

[rusty69]

37 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

 

Of course your unimpressed rusty69, your a novice, like your back slapping comrades..

Your advice is next to useless for the OP.

 

I have no experience of  boatbuilding, but neither has 99% of the people who visit this forum for advice.I and others on this forum, do however, have extensive knowledge of buying second hand boats, which afterall is what the OP is trying to achieve.

37 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by rusty69

[Ray T]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Your advice is next to useless for the OP.

 

I have no experience of  boatbuilding, but neither has 99% of the people who visit this forum for advice.I and others on this forum, do however, have extensive knowledge of buying second hand boats, which afterall is what the OP is trying to achieve.

Your advice is next to useless for the OP.

 

I have no experience of  boatbuilding, but neither has 99% of the people who visit this forum for advice.I and others on this forum, do however, have extensive knowledge of buying second hand boats, which afterall is what the OP is trying to achieve.

Your advice is next to useless for the OP.

 

I have no experience of  boatbuilding, but neither has 99% of the people who visit this forum for advice.I and others on this forum, do however, have extensive knowledge of buying second hand boats, which afterall is what the OP is trying to achieve.

Rusty I like the reply.

 

When I attended a presentation skills course with BT the lecturer said: "Tell 'em what you are going to tell them, tell them, then tell 'em what you have just told them." Well done. 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Ray T

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Halsey said:

Isn’t it more about ventilation to the outside than actual location

Good point, Halsey. I thought that the locker had to be outside the boat's living area, but evidently not.

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

I/we  bought a 50ft Mike Heywood in 1986. It was 3 years old when we bought it. We did not have it surveyed. On the voyage home from Lymm the prop shaft coupling kept breaking. We had this rectified by MH at Hoo Mill. We sold it in 1999 having no major work done on the boat. Problems that we had during owner ship was the wooden handrails went rotten so we welded on tramlines. Had to remove some of the polystyrene lining to enable us to weld which was replaced after. The toilet holding tank was part of the hull structure as was the shower tray so the tray was painted with bitumen regularly. The metal thickness was 6 mm hull bottom and sides with a 3 mm cabin sides and top. So you can see why the shower tray had regular maintenance. Water tank was also part of the structure being in the gas locker area but again I regularly got in it via the hatch and painted it. The front well and seats were all one part and had been installed at slightly the wrong angle which resulted in it not self draining fully. The gas locker was in the engine room and had water in the bottom constantly which was a bad thing. When we sold her there was no bilge pump fitted. The boat is still going and was sold in the last couple of years by VC at Iver. Please ask if you need any further details.

Forgot to mention that the roof did flex when walked on. She had a 1.5 British Leyland and we were based on the Thames. We never had any keel cooling problems which have been mentioned on this thread as being his Achilles heel even when pushing the current when river on red boards

 

This illustrates another point quite well. Surveyed, this boat would probably look like a disaster area to be run a mile from. Yet it is still cruising about today with probably a perfectly happy owner. 

[Captain Pegg]

Personally I am interested in 70liveaboard's point of view and it's shame it involves so much rancour in obtaining it. It is relevant to the question the OP asked; both in terms of informing the question and pointing out the pitfalls in asking such a question.

 

I have often read things relating to the provenance, age, grade and corrosion resistance of steel on this forum that is at best irrelevant and at worst plain wrong. There is a similar element to this thread; it is based upon well intended genuine experience and personal preference but lacks in depth understanding of the technical issues of the topic concerned.

 

I do though believe that it's wrong not to explain technical things to people because you don't think they will understand. Those who want to know deserve to be told, and I suspect underneath the bickering here that folk actually do want to know more as well share their own experience. It's the lack of knowledgable explanation that perpetuates falsehoods.

 

JP

 

 

Edited July 29, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[nicknorman]

5 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

Personally I am interested in 70liveaboard's point of view and it's shame it involves so much rancour in obtaining it. It is relevant to the question the OP asked; both in terms of informing the question and pointing out the pitfalls in asking such a question.

 

I have often read things relating to the provenance, age, grade and corrosion resistance of steel on this forum that is at best irrelevant and at worst plain wrong. There is a similar element to this thread; it is based upon well intended genuine experience and personal preference but lacks in depth understanding of the technical issues of the topic concerned.

 

I do though believe that it's wrong not to explain technical things to people because you don't think they will understand. Those who want to know deserve to be told, and I suspect underneath the bickering here that folk actually do want to know more as well share their own experience. It's the lack of knowledgable explanation that perpetuates falsehoods.

 

JP

 

 

Anyway, if you ever need a new boat here is the perfect one for you!

 

[Captain Pegg]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Anyway, if you ever need a new boat here is the perfect one for you!

 

I wouldn't even ask who built it!

 

Might have to squeeze a second g in there though. I'm not a digital photo!

 

JP

[David Mack]

This boat isn't going to win any prizes in the best boatbuilder stakes, and has no engine, but it is 72 ft long, is within the OP's budget and it comes with a mooring within reach of London.

 

Edited July 30, 2018 by David Mack

[Stewart Kirby]

Death Trap!!!! Look at that stove installation.

[Tonka]

But you do get 3 taps in the bath

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

But you do get 3 taps in the bath

 

Just to clear this one up... 

 

The left hand tap is for the cold water, the middle tap is for the hot water, and the right hand tap is for the wine ?

 

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, David Mack said:

This boat isn't going to win any prizes in the best boatbuilder stakes, and has no engine, but it is 72 ft long, is within the OP's budget and it comes with a mooring within reach of London.

OK I get your point, we need to spend more money!

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, David Mack said:

This boat isn't going to win any prizes in the best boatbuilder stakes, and has no engine, but it is 72 ft long, is within the OP's budget and it comes with a mooring within reach of London.

 

46 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

OK I get your point, we need to spend more money!

 

I took David's suggestion the other way.  Go and look at it.

 

The stove is fixable, and if you get the extra £10k or so you plan on adding to your budget you can fit an engine later - if the boat suits you, has a sound hull and has a "normal" stern.

 

In the meantime, you have somewhere to live on a boat with plenty storage (in the sheds) and mains hookup. 

[jetzi]

I appreciate the suggestion and seeing as she's so close to London we might as well go have a look, but this boat really would not have even made the spreadsheet if she wasn't pointed out.
 

These are the reasons I would perhaps have passed over this boat:

• No engine! I guess fitting an engine is something we could do, but to me as a noob it seems like it would be a huge and expensive job. On the plus side we could choose a good, modern engine with calorifier and powerful alternators.
• She comes with a mooring we don't want, which probably inflates her price.
• She appears to sit very low in the water - could this suggest overplating or some poorly done repairs or modifications?
• The owners have been using a mains hookup which might mean corrosion.
• Unknown builder.
• She's fugly.

I'm very curious to understand why such a boat would be suggested when we were advised off Joan primarily because she was an unknown builder? She even comes with a lot of optional extras, like an engine!

 

For reference here's her ad: https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/70ft-liveaboard-narrowboat-based-in-london/1304038666

 

Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that we aren't casting our net wide enough? That we need to look at a number of boats even if we think they aren't suitable?

[David Mack]

You want a 70 ft boat, you work in London and your budget is limited. You are going to have to compromise somewhere.

 

Not having an engine is indeed limiting, although it does give you more space inside. But this boat seems to come with a residential mooring and mains services. These are like gold dust in London. 

 

CCing in London is not easy. There are limited facilities, you have to move the boat at least once a fortnight, and finding moorings for a 70 ft boat, especially in central and east London, is not easy. You can still find spaces, but as the number of CCers continues to increases it can only get more difficult.

 

And you have to manage your electricity use. Not too bad in summer when solar will cover much of your needs, but in winter you will need to run your engine or a generator for hours if you are not to knacker your batteries in short order. 

 

Yes this boat is fugly.  I know nothing more about it than the ad, but to me it is a shallow hull with a tall cabin, and a spacious interior. As a 1981 build it may well have been overplated, or need overplating. But it has also apparently been home to a young family for 14 years. 

 

[Tonka]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

I appreciate the suggestion and seeing as she's so close to London we might as well go have a look, but this boat really would not have even made the spreadsheet if she wasn't pointed out.
 

These are the reasons I would perhaps have passed over this boat:

• No engine! I guess fitting an engine is something we could do, but to me as a noob it seems like it would be a huge and expensive job. On the plus side we could choose a good, modern engine with calorifier and powerful alternators.
• She comes with a mooring we don't want, which probably inflates her price.
• She appears to sit very low in the water - could this suggest overplating or some poorly done repairs or modifications?
• The owners have been using a mains hookup which might mean corrosion.
• Unknown builder.
• She's fugly.

I'm very curious to understand why such a boat would be suggested when we were advised off Joan primarily because she was an unknown builder? She even comes with a lot of optional extras, like an engine!

 

For reference here's her ad: https://www.gumtree.com/p/boats-kayaks-jet-skis/70ft-liveaboard-narrowboat-based-in-london/1304038666

 

Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that we aren't casting our net wide enough? That we need to look at a number of boats even if we think they aren't suitable?

The boat is low in the water even without an engine. Is the hull suitable to fit an engine i.e. is there a swim for water to get to the prop. Is there a rudder or place for a rudder. Can a stern tube be fitted. are the outlets for the sink going to be high enough when the engine is put in.

 

All in all the Mike Heywood 70 ft looks better to me 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Tonka said:

The boat is low in the water even without an engine. Is the hull suitable to fit an engine i.e. is there a swim for water to get to the prop. Is there a rudder or place for a rudder. Can a stern tube be fitted. are the outlets for the sink going to be high enough when the engine is put in.

 

All in all the Mike Heywood 70 ft looks better to me 

 

My thoughts are the same. If the swims, stern tube, propshaft and rudder are all there just waiting for an engine to be dropped in (along with twin alternators, calorifier etc etc mentioned by the OP) I think the cost will still run well into five figures. If no swims, stern tube, propshaft and rudder it would be cheaper to just buy a 70ft sailaway. 

 

Most of the price of this boat is for the hen's teeth mooring. Off the mooring I doubt it would sell for much more than £10k.

[TheBiscuits]

3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Perhaps the point you're trying to make is that we aren't casting our net wide enough? That we need to look at a number of boats even if we think they aren't suitable?

We keep telling you this, in as many different ways as we can think of.

 

With your requirements and budget you need to be looking at as many boats as you can.  I agree an engineless boat is probably not what you want, but how does the layout work for you?  Could you realistically live and work inside that space?

 

A 70' boat is a 60' boat with an extra bedroom/dinette added on.  You can learn everything you need to know about boat layouts on a shorter boat than you ideally want.   

 

I would say go and look at anything that any of the brokers have for sale from about 55' upwards, regardless of the price.   By the time you have physically walked through a few dozen boats you will be in a better position to judge what you are looking at online.  

 

Basically, get up to Whilton and spend a day looking at everything they have for sale regardless of length or price.

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, ivan&alice said:

Speaking of which, I think I know what a stern tube, prop and rudder are, but what are "swims" in the context of a boat? It's a hard term to Google...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=narrowboat+swim

 

[Big Bob W]

18 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Basically, get up to Whilton and spend a day looking at everything they have for sale regardless of length or price.

I would also recommend to spend a day at Whilton.

By no means am I recommending them as a broker to purchase from though - far from it! Most of their boats are well over priced in my opinion, and you'll find plenty of stories about them on here. 

However they have a huge selection of boats on brokerage. They are not fussy about giving you the keys to whatever boats you want to look over and you can do this unaccompanied in your own time. So you can get a good idea of what will work for you. 

[mark99]

"From what I understand, connecting to mains power is one of the primary sources of corrosion on the boat (hence the need for sacrificial anodes) and so I'd prefer to buy a boat that isn't generally connected to mains"

 

 

It CAN be. But there are ways to protect the hull. EG Look up Galvanic Isolator.

 

The anodes are not used to protect you from a poor electric hook up - nothing will save your hull from that.

 

 

Edited July 31, 2018 by mark99

[Robbo]

49 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

Yes, this is going to be an issue. As we work from home on laptops we are going to need lots of electricity. One of the things we liked about Joan was her three large solar panels and bank of leisure batteries. We'll have to upgrade the power on almost any boat we buy and we'll almost certainly need to run the engine or generator for hours as well on top. This is just a reality no matter which boat we're on.

If you haven't already it will be worth reading upon power management, doesn't matter what boat you get if it's off-grid then you will need to do some power management.  The best reading materials.

 

Victron Energy Unlimited (free book) - https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Book-Energy-Unlimited-EN.pdf

Tony Brook's training site - (free, good source of info for boating malacky) - http://www.tb-training.co.uk/

Nigel Calders "Bible" - (not so free, and very technical but covers most areas) - https://amzn.to/2O0Omm3

 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

We were going to do this last weekend (we were going to go to Great Haywood Boat Sales, though) but as it happened all the boats there that we liked are sold. We do want there to be at least a boat or two in particular that we might actually purchase. For one, because it's going to be an expensive and time consuming weekend, and we do want to maximise our chances, and for two, because the marinas insist upon it. Unfortunately it seems marinas don't want you to come and browse, they want you to specify two or three boats in particular that you are interested in. To be honest they seem incredibly full of $&!# about it. One marina even insists upon seeing proof of finance before they will let you in. I guess that just goes to show what a sellers' market it is right now.

 

We're not in a hurry and we'll keep looking and learning over the next 3 to 6 months. I think the biggest takeaway from this whole discussion is that our budget is not enough. We'll probably only buy much later in the year or next year when we can afford a boat for 40 to 45K.

 

There are several brokers within a short drive of Whilton, although none will have the number of boats available to view that Whilton have. Wilson also have a unique feature, in that they will give you the keys to 3 boats at a time and let you look over them unsupervised.

 

Just turn up at a marina and ask to look around the outside of the boats, then ask them to show you the inside of those that interest you. They will not refuse you, this is what I did when first looking, although I made appointments later on when I had a better idea of what I wanted to buy. 

 

GHBS at Wigwams Turn Marina,  Calcutt Marina, Braunston Marina,  ABNB at Crick and Rugby Boat Sales at Stowe Hill Wharf (and probably others I've forgotten) are all within a few minutes drive of each other. If I were you I would book a hotel and spend the weekend looking at boats at all of these brokers, just to get a flavour of what you like and what does/doesn't work in a boat for you. It will make Internet searches for boats far more meaningful for you.