Rank these boat builders!

[Stewart Kirby]

The Alvechurch boat is the best of the bunch. It’s 1992 boat and was probably built by Alvechurch or fitted out by them. I hired a couple of times from them and their boats were sound. I like it because although it has all the basics like BMC Engine, PRM Gearbox, central heating, water heating etc. But, for me the rest of it is a blank canvas, clear of loads of “stuff” you don’t want or need. Fairly good easy to set up two working areas with a bit of furniture.

it needs the electrics enhancing with some solar and maybe an inverter and a bigger battery bank unless you are going to be mostly on shore power.

i’m not sure if anyone has mentioned it but most people make an offer at less than the asking price, no harm in trying for a reduction.

an ex-hire boat will have been well used but probably well maintained, no reason to rule them out.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Stewart Kirby
Added somfink

[Captain Pegg]

2 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

 

Thanks for confirming that, I think her age, the wooden roof and the lack of escape route kind of together make a dealbreaker.

I own the boat that was quite possibly built immediately before this one at CTS (mine was fabricated in 1968 and first launched in Feb 1969). This boat will have been built with a wooden top and probably finished in Masonite boards. That won't have have lasted 50 years and it looks very much to me that the cabin structure is still wood (possibly rebuilt) but that it may be externally skinned in steel. That's not a bad combination at all.

 

JP

[David Mack]

3 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

Good looking but by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=563642
CTS built, very nice but looks like she might have a wooden roof? - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=568722

Very cheap and built in 2005! but by "floating homes", who didn't place in the poll: - https://www.apolloduck.com/boat.phtml?id=558960

 

Of the various boatbuilders you have listed in these threads, Floating Homes were very much at the bargain basement end of the market when new.

Edited July 26, 2018 by David Mack

[Captain Pegg]

42 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

Alvechurch used to build boats at their Hilperton base in Wiltshire, having taken over the dock formerly owned by Wessex Boats. However they ceased building when the Financial Support Grant conditions for building the dock expired. I do not know whether they built any private boats there.

I generally assume a boat listed as built by ABC or Alvechurch was built at Alvechurch although this one doesn't look typical of their 'home' fleet and I know they have (had) associations with other yards and builders.

 

Do you have reason to suspect it was built at Hilperton?

 

JP

[Captain Pegg]

9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

...Mike Heywood has a middling vote

 

...by Alvechurch which isn't highly rated

 

...by "floating homes", who didn't place in the poll

STOP!

 

Seriously this approach is not going to help you find the right boat and it may stop you buying any boat at all. At £30k there will always be a reason that could be found not to buy a particular boat. You asked about value in your poll and they could all be good value at the right price. Find one that suits your needs first, then set about finding if there is a critical reason why you shouldn't buy it. The shell builder will never be a critical reason. Once you have done that set about securing a reasonable price.

 

JP

Edited July 26, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[mark99]

Indeed. Verging on the ridiculous! Sorry. At least you are getting out and about. The boat will choose you; a hackneyed phrase but very true.

[Rob-M]

9 hours ago, Athy said:

Nor have I - that's why I thought it didn't look like an ex-hire boat. It could of course have been refenestrated after being sold into private ownership.

I have a vague memory that John Pinder built Alvechurch's boats, or some of them. I have never knowingly heard of a private boat built by Alvechurch - but then Teddesley used to build their own boats but no longer do, so it's a possibility.

John Pinder did build shells for Alvechurch which were then fitted out by their own carpenters.  Brian Godfrey then started building shells at Alvechurch, these went in to the hire fleet, some were shared ownership and some for private ownership.  This was 25 years ago, not sure what has happened in more recent times.

 

[Captain Pegg]

3 minutes ago, Rob-M said:

John Pinder did build shells for Alvechurch which were then fitted out by their own carpenters.  Brian Godfrey then started building shells at Alvechurch, these went in to the hire fleet, some were shared ownership and some for private ownership.  This was 25 years ago, not sure what has happened in more recent times.

 

I recall they advertise their willingness to build private boats on the outside of the sheds at Alvechurch. Quite why you wouldn't buy one I don't know. Lord knows they must have built hundreds and we all know one indestructible old one. 

 

Having read the whole thread through I realise my question to David Schweizer was at cross purposes.

 

JP

[Richard10002]

50 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

STOP!

 

Seriously this approach is not going to help you find the right boat and it may stop you buying any boat at all. At £30k there will always be a reason that could be found not to buy a particular boat. You asked about value in your poll and they could all be good value at the right price. Find one that suits your needs first, then set about finding if there is a critical reason why you shouldn't buy it. The shell builder will never be a critical reason. Once you have done that set about securing a reasonable price.

 

JP

I was trying to find a way to say the same thing. Look at some boats.... if you like one, (layout, size, equipment, colour, etc... ), get an offer accepted, have an out of water survey, hand over the money and move on in!!

 

You might want to ask a few questions and do a bit of very quick research between liking and offering, but every month you want to own a boat, and dont own a boat, is kind of a waste.

 

Not that I am saying you should rush your purchase.... merely that you don't find the wrong reasons not to look, and not to offer, and therefore not buy.

 

 

[jetzi]

I asked the question about reliable manufacturers because in a different thread several people advised that the hull builder was of utmost importance. I pointed out a boat that I liked and I was told it was impossible to value because the manufacturer was unknown.

 

So I know you mean well and I do appreciate your opinions, but for @Captain Pegg , @mark99, @Richard10002 and others who disagree with my simply trying to learn, all I can say is each to his own. I never said that I would refuse to buy a boat that wasn't voted for in a silly poll. Or only buy a Les Allen regardless of condition. This is simply my way of learning about the reputation of boat builders.

 

I can't believe it's a good idea for a complete noob to "go with the gut" and "let the boat choose" them. Would you say that to someone buying a car or a house if they knew nothing about the car or house market? No wonder people find boats to be such a money pit if this is the prevailing attitude. Buying a boat on instinct alone might work for you as someone who has been boating all their lives but it has got to be the worst advice to give a newbie.

 

I accept that it is critical that the boat suits us, in layout, in style, etc. That's the first thing we look for. I promise we won't buy a boat that we don't like. But it will also be a boat that I believe is an objectively good buy, so that if we are forced to sell one day we aren't going to be financially ruined.

 

44 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

every month you want to own a boat, and dont own a boat, is kind of a waste.

 

We've only just started looking and we're not in any hurry even if we might miss one or two good ones. The longer we wait, the more we'll have saved and the dearer a boat we can afford. We can only spend 30K if we buy tomorrow but each passing month we put more towards it. I'm happy to spend the next few months looking at as many boats as possible and asking as many questions as possible so that we don't make a big mistake!

 

I'm also thinking we might be able to find a better bargain if we buy towards the end of summer and people want to sell and avoid the winter?

 

45 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

merely that you don't find the wrong reasons not to look, and not to offer, and therefore not buy.

 

If we find the right boat, we'll move on it. The manufacturer of the hull is just one factor of many.

 

 

 

[Troyboy]

I wonder what research you carried out before deciding to marry Alice , the spreadsheet would look interesting .

[alan_fincher]

28 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I asked the question about reliable manufacturers because in a different thread several people advised that the hull builder was of utmost importance. I pointed out a boat that I liked and I was told it was impossible to value because the manufacturer was unknown

The question you have actually asked in the poll is.....
 

Quote

Which of these boat builders would you consider reputable / good value?

However, (tongue slightly but not firmly in cheek), you have not suggested whether we should tick a box if we consider a builder reputable, but their boats poor value, or "disreputable" but their boats good value.

Reputable doesn't necessarily mean "builds excellent shells", and a builder can build excellent shells without exactly being reputable.  (Mike Heywood was a good builder, but his financial affairs, particularly in respect of VAT were allegedly highly dodgy).

This is partly why I didn't answer what I considered to be a very ambiguous question.

However even if you accurately define the question, I still have a problem, in that there is no shades of grey about the question.  For any builder the choice is "good" or "not good".  So sticking with Mike Heywood, who built remarkably well swimming shells at a good price is it a "yes" or a "no"?  I really wouldn't know what to put.

The fact you have recorded (say) the same number of votes for Black Prince as for Springer doesn't tell me anything at all, as it doesn't reflect any measure of "goodness" "reliabilty" or "sought-after-ness" that is within my experience.

(I have no idea where the emboldened text has come from!)

Edited July 26, 2018 by alan_fincher

[Big Bob W]

35 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I can't believe it's a good idea for a complete noob to "go with the gut" and "let the boat choose" them. Would you say that to someone buying a car or a house if they knew nothing about the car or house market? No wonder people find boats to be such a money pit if this is the prevailing attitude. Buying a boat on instinct alone might work for you as someone who has been boating all their lives but it has got to be the worst advice to give a newbie.

It was this time last year we bought for the first time. We too were (and still are) "noobs". We had been looking around for a year or more. I must admit at no time did we ever consider who was the builder of any boat! We were just looking for something that was right for us in the right price bracket. 

 

When we eventually found it, the offer went in, knowing that we would commission a survey that would not only (hopefully) find any serious issues, but also give a valuation.

 

I would say Chill,  relax a bit. Look around. As I said before, and it is true, the right boat will find you. 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Big Bob W

[Captain Pegg]

49 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I asked the question about reliable manufacturers because in a different thread several people advised that the hull builder was of utmost importance. I pointed out a boat that I liked and I was told it was impossible to value because the manufacturer was unknown.

 

So I know you mean well and I do appreciate your opinions, but for @Captain Pegg , @mark99, @Richard10002 and others who disagree with my simply trying to learn, all I can say is each to his own. I never said that I would refuse to buy a boat that wasn't voted for in a silly poll. Or only buy a Les Allen regardless of condition. This is simply my way of learning about the reputation of boat builders.

 

Modern narrowboat hulls are essentially made to the same specification and thickness of steel no matter who builds it. Very old ones used thinner steel as that was the norm of the day. Some builders have thicker base plates but that's a very expensive way of ballasting your boat. There will be variation with the quality and control of welding but who on here is properly qualified to comment and even if they are do they have experience in the products of these manufacturers or are they able to judge from their armchair? Get a surveyor to make that judgment for you.

 

A lot of the 'quality' debate is a judgment on the style and detailing of the hull. A better looking hull is more difficult and therefore more expensive to cut and weld. That puts up the sale price and therefore the resale value hence the help in knowing the builder in attempting to value a boat. There are some short cuts a fabricator can take to avoid some of the more difficult details and therefore lower the price. These can affect handling or possibly make the boat more likely to wedge itself on the proverbial shopping trolley. However they won't critically affect it's basic ability to do the job you need it to do; which is to float. It is condition alone that will determine that. The older the boat the more the balance between provenance and condition swings toward the latter.

 

The other day your thread got sidetracked by a spat between a poster who appeared to have experience of buying shells from a variety of builders and one who had experience of their gas fittings. You seem to have sided with the opinion of the latter when you may have been better advised to privately seek the knowledge of the former.

 

Folks that buy Les Allen or CTS boats are generally dyed in the wool narrow boat people. For instance that 70' CTS boat you linked to almost certainly has a traditional back cabin and engine room taking up the rear 15' of the cabin space. It probably isn't a suitable boat for your needs irrespective of its 'quality'.

 

You will find these things out by going and looking when you may find that should you ask about some issue that someone on here tells is you is really important the broker or seller may just look at you like you are mad.

 

JP

Edited July 26, 2018 by Captain Pegg

[nicknorman]

45 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

I asked the question about reliable manufacturers because in a different thread several people advised that the hull builder was of utmost importance. I pointed out a boat that I liked and I was told it was impossible to value because the manufacturer was unknown.

 

So I know you mean well and I do appreciate your opinions, but for @Captain Pegg , @mark99, @Richard10002 and others who disagree with my simply trying to learn, all I can say is each to his own. I never said that I would refuse to buy a boat that wasn't voted for in a silly poll. Or only buy a Les Allen regardless of condition. This is simply my way of learning about the reputation of boat builders.

 

I can't believe it's a good idea for a complete noob to "go with the gut" and "let the boat choose" them. Would you say that to someone buying a car or a house if they knew nothing about the car or house market? No wonder people find boats to be such a money pit if this is the prevailing attitude. Buying a boat on instinct alone might work for you as someone who has been boating all their lives but it has got to be the worst advice to give a newbie.

 

I accept that it is critical that the boat suits us, in layout, in style, etc. That's the first thing we look for. I promise we won't buy a boat that we don't like. But it will also be a boat that I believe is an objectively good buy, so that if we are forced to sell one day we aren't going to be financially ruined.

 

 

We've only just started looking and we're not in any hurry even if we might miss one or two good ones. The longer we wait, the more we'll have saved and the dearer a boat we can afford. We can only spend 30K if we buy tomorrow but each passing month we put more towards it. I'm happy to spend the next few months looking at as many boats as possible and asking as many questions as possible so that we don't make a big mistake!

 

I'm also thinking we might be able to find a better bargain if we buy towards the end of summer and people want to sell and avoid the winter?

 

 

If we find the right boat, we'll move on it. The manufacturer of the hull is just one factor of many.

 

 

 

I totally get what you are doing here, and think you are right to do so. 

[David Schweizer]

8 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

I generally assume a boat listed as built by ABC or Alvechurch was built at Alvechurch although this one doesn't look typical of their 'home' fleet and I know they have (had) associations with other yards and builders.

 

Do you have reason to suspect it was built at Hilperton?

 

JP

No, not at all, I was mereely confirming that Alvechurch did build some hire boats at Hilperton, but I cannot remember what they looked like.

[Captain Pegg]

1 minute ago, David Schweizer said:

No, not at all, I was mereely confirming that Alvechurch did build some hire boats at Hilperton, but I cannot remember what they looked like.

David,

 

If you haven't already seen my comment in a later post please note that I do acknowledge I asked the question out of context having not read through the whole thread.

 

Jon

[nicknorman]

Couple of things to think about - how and where will you use your boat? I ask this because Mike Heywood didn’t really understand engine cooling, and made skin tanks the wrong shape so whilst they held a lot of coolant (too much!) they didn’t cool well. Thus if you need to run the engine fast for a long period (rivers, especially tidal ones) they can overheat. If you are just pottering along canals it doesn’t matter.

 

And secondly if it for liveaboard, I would be interested in the effectiveness of the cabin insulation (ie type and thickness of insulation). Perhaps hard to judge in summer but it makes a big difference to the ease of living in winter. 

[Captain Pegg]

1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

 This is really good advice. I'm generally looking at older boats. If I do find one with a thicker base plate that's probably a good sign. Thickness of the steel has got to be a good influencing factor on the value of a boat. Will add a spreadsheet column

Chances are you will find a 10mm baseplate as constructed. Steel doesn't normally rust anywhere near as quickly as folks generally presume so the measured depth of the basic plate even on an old boat shouldn't significantly differ from as new. By that I mean tenths of millimetres not ones of millimetres. The bottom is protected by a lack of oxygen and the sides by blacking. It is localised pitting caused by chemical attack rather than ambient rusting that is the likely enemy. The baseplate and poorly blacked areas on the sides may be prone to pitting. In truth a hull doesn't need to be any thicker than the normal 10mm bottom and 6mm sides but it isn't a bad thing if it is. Albeit it is harder to achieve a quality weld on thicker plates...

 

JP

[70liveaboard]

Mike Heywood built very good boats, Wilson came out of that stable (nephew IIRC) they worked out of the same premises at one time. Mike was a director of the first wilson company I think, before he died.

He is better than some on the list, that is for sure (imo)

A very good drinker too, had many an afternoon at his 'then', ex hotel, long time ago. Bankruptcy had more or less ruined him, but they let him rent an apartment in the hotel he once owned, nice too.

 

His boats had great lines, but lacked a little cabin support, but nothing too serious. All the boats we had from him, we added further section. He built a great little boat with a bow cabin, would love to see that again, not seen it in years.

 

At that price its well worth a look, it looks too cheap to be honest, but who can tell, someone selling after bereavement etc, can sometimes land a bargain.

[Mitchellmoxo]

On 24/07/2018 at 20:02, Stewart Kirby said:

I think you are fixating too much on a 70ft boat. Yes, there’s a fair bit of space but there are also downsides to a full length boat. As a newbie you are going to find handling 70ft pretty tough, especially if the wind is blowing. It’s also going to be harder to find a mooring for a boat that size, especially if you are thinking about Continuous Cruising in Greater London. You have seen very few boats really, why not widen your search to 60ft plus and go and view some boats? Get a feel for different layouts and stern types. Forget about buying in London, you will be paying an over-inflated price. Your budget is fairly limited and there will immediately be extra costs, insurance, licence ( licences are no longer transferable so you will need to buy one on day one. Budget for discovering all your batteries are knackered and you need four/five new ones or something else needing to be repaired or replaced. The old joke is that a boat is a hole in the water you throw money into is not far off the truth. No matter how nice the sellers seem, trust no one.

Good advice here ^^

[mark99]

In a way the list pre-supposes we are all experts who spend our days crawling through narrowboat shells with a clipboard. It's got a sort of bias where for instance myself has seen a couple of Les Allen Shells and liked their external lines ditto CTS + Colecraft never knowing much at all about the rest.

 

If you dismissed a boat that is ranked last on the list it would be shame if you passed it over. A well looked after Springer for instance has their own "charm" and it's value can be buoyed up eg same in a way an old Morris Minor car has <but perhaps relatively little instrinic value>.

 

As someone upstairs of here said your budget means you cannot be too piccy or disconcerning.

 

Good luck.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by mark99

[Mad Harold]

On 26/07/2018 at 11:01, Athy said:

. It could of course have been refenestrated

Couldn't find this word in my dictionary,but it sounds like someone has had their virginity restored by refenestration. 

[rusty69]

10 minutes ago, Furness said:

Couldn't find this word in my dictionary,but it sounds like someone has had their virginity restored by refenestration. 

I thought it was something to do with chucking a deaf person out a window. 

Edited July 27, 2018 by rusty69

[Athy]

16 minutes ago, Furness said:

Couldn't find this word in my dictionary,but it sounds like someone has had their virginity restored by refenestration. 

Fenestration being windows or the arrangement thereof, I used to the word in the sense of "replacing the windows". Apparently it can also mean throwing something back through a window, which I did not mean (and indeed did not know). I am unsure where virginity comes into it (and am unsure that I want to find out).