How to value a boat...?

[70liveaboard]

30 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And I don't think you will. I don't think I've never seen a Liverpool boat anything other than 57ft long. Maybe they build some at 70ft but if they did, they are rare as hens teeth.

 

So 70liveboard's hero worship of Liverpool Stan and mindless insistence their boats are perfect in every way is rather pointless!

 

What, like the £70,000 Hallmark boat that 70liveaboard keeps linking to?

You do know he'll read right through your rhetoric.. I would imagine most do.

 

Oh and point where I have been overly zealous. You really do know limited things regards the subject.

Point it out though anyway..

 

Quick edit: there are 60 liverpool boats on AD alone, of all sizes inc 70. But I would expect that and certainly this is why.. OP don't listen to this hopeless advice, especially this guy quoted.

 

Just for info OP: https://www.apolloduck.co.uk/boats.phtml?id=765

The reason why so many for sale, this is a small amount compared to the vast amount of boats they built. Probably over thousand, maybe a good bit more than that. They were very, very popular boats. Good boats for the price.

Edited July 22, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Athy]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

And I don't think you will. I don't think I've never seen a Liverpool boat anything other than 57ft long. Maybe they build some at 70ft but if they did, they are rare as hens teeth.

 

So 70liveboard's hero worship of Liverpool Stan and mindless insistence their boats are perfect in every way is rather pointless!

 

What, like the £70,000 Hallmark boat that 70liveaboard keeps linking to?

Liverpools came in all sorts of lengths - I've certainly seen 35 foot ones, which they marketed as the "Pacific", and our last boat was 40' long. To confuse the issue, Liverpool did fit some boats out themselves and sell them under their own name, but they also supplied shells to various boatfitters who then fitted them out and sold them under their own name. Ours was a Devizes Narrowboats production, for example.

 

Regarding Hallmark, I think you were alluding to the original market position of various builders rather than the price for which they are sold (or at least offered) today. Hallmark were super-cheap when new.

[70liveaboard]

19 minutes ago, Athy said:

Liverpools came in all sorts of lengths - I've certainly seen 35 foot ones, which they marketed as the "Pacific", and our last boat was 40' long. To confuse the issue, Liverpool did fit some boats out themselves and sell them under their own name, but they also supplied shells to various boatfitters who then fitted them out and sold them under their own name. Ours was a Devizes Narrowboats production, for example.

 

Regarding Hallmark, I think you were alluding to the original market position of various builders rather than the price for which they are sold (or at least offered) today. Hallmark were super-cheap when new.

Only the budget range regards Hallmark were cheap, done to a 'budget'. Their standard everyday boats were mid range prices. There were a few budget ranges, Clubline WYSIWYG, Conmac did some, Narrowboat Sales, & various others. This is way back though.

 

Regards Liverpool, they built huge numbers, many boat fitters who advertised as builders, used the hulls and passed them off as their own. But that happened everywhere, back in the day, probably still does. They also sold fully fitted under 'Pullman'. Going back nearly 30yrs now. Liverpool built all lengths. Back then it was the Princess (trad), Harrington (semi) & Brunswick (cruiser).

Boat fitters bought them because they were solid honest good shell's. They sat nicely in the lower Mid range market. If you want really cheap back then, look for a Clubline WYSIWYG, they were incredibly cheap. Plus the Holly range from NS.

Edited July 23, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Athy]

7 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Only the budget range regards Hallmark were cheap, done to a 'budget'. Their standard everyday boats were mid range prices.

As it was the budget priced boats which were widely advertised in the boating press, by full-page or even double page adverts, I think that we may regard those as their "standard" product. They would doubtless build you a higher-spec boat if you wanted one, just as Springer would, but I'd think that these represented only a small proportion of their output.

[rusty69]

I'm glad we bought our boat before the internet forums came along.

 

Its such a minefield out there for newby buyers trying to get on the property ladder. 

 

If starting now, i don't think i would buy a narrowboat and look for an alternative lifestyle. 

 

Afterall, what is so good about a glorified floating skip anyway, they ain't exactly proper boats (eh mrsmelly) 

[70liveaboard]

6 minutes ago, Athy said:

As it was the budget priced boats which were widely advertised in the boating press, by full-page or even double page adverts, I think that we may regard those as their "standard" product.

You may, they wouldn't.

Owing to the fact they were around many years prior to launching the budget ones. But I wouldn't expect you to know that.

[Athy]

12 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

You may, they wouldn't.

Owing to the fact they were around many years prior to launching the budget ones. But I wouldn't expect you to know that.

Yes, indeed I do, as would many other people who have seen those advertisements. Quite obviously, those boats were their standard product at that time, as I said. If they were indeed making more expensive boats, they must have publicised them by hiding behind a wall and whispering.

 

Why not?

[70liveaboard]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

 they must have publicised them by hiding behind a wall and whispering.

 

Why not?

Yeah, of course, expected answer.

 

[Athy]

4 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Yeah, of course, expected answer.

 

...and got answer!

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Athy said:

...and got answer!

I think he meant that was the answer he expected. 

[Athy]

12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I think he meant that was the answer he expected. 

Of course.

Anyway, for the O.P.'s benefit, most Hallmark boats may be regarded as bottom-of-range cheap craft. They tend to keep their value fairly well, as they were so cheap in the first place.

As Mr. Board points out, they had previously built some more upmarket boats when they were a smaller-scale operation, but these will not generally fall within your desired price range.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Athy

[70liveaboard]

19 minutes ago, Athy said:

Of course.

Anyway, for the O.P.'s benefit, most Hallmark boats may be regarded as bottom-of-range cheap craft. They tend to keep their value fairly well, as they were so cheap in the first place.

As Mr. Board points out, they had previously built some more upmarket boats when they were a smaller-scale operation, but these will not generally fall within your desired price range.

Neither will the 'budget' range. 50 here sold for mid 30's

 

Oh, and they keep their price because they're good boats.

Edited July 23, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[alan_fincher]

8 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

The boat you’re looking at is asking 37000. You have only 30000. Hard to see it being worth less than 30000, provided there is nothing particularly serious in a survey, so offer your 30000, and see how they respond.

I disagree.

We actually know very little about this boat so far.

 

I don't think anybody has recognised the builder have they - it could even be a home brew by an enthusiastic amateur.

It has apparently had some overpating, but we don't seem to know why or when, or to what standard.

There is a survey, but it doesn't mention this (!)

If I was as new to this as OP says he is, I'd be wanting heaps more reassurance before putting in an offer.

Even if he gets a deposit fully returned, docking and survey will cost maybe £1,000, and that will be £1,000 less available to offer on any other boat, if this one is a duffer.

[tree monkey]

57 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm glad we bought our boat before the internet forums came along.

 

Its such a minefield out there for newby buyers trying to get on the property ladder. 

 

If starting now, i don't think i would buy a narrowboat and look for an alternative lifestyle. 

 

Afterall, what is so good about a glorified floating skip anyway, they ain't exactly proper boats (eh mrsmelly) 

This, I did almost exactly the opposite of the normal advice on best practice when buying mine.

Saying that I do not suggest my method as in anyway good practice

[alan_fincher]

9 hours ago, ivan&alice said:

The thread was actually about how to value 70' boats in general (and in particular help on valuing a boat I'm interested in), because I don't know all the factors that determine the value. I've provided quite a lot of detail about the boat and no one seems keen to take a stab at a reasonable price range. That's a good example of how little definite information there is when it comes to buying a boat.

But, with respect, you haven't.

You were not able to answer many of the questions I raised.

You appera to know nothing about who built it, or the subsequent overplating that a survey  has apparently failed to mention.

Without such information, how can anybody really put a value on it.

I wouldn't like to try, but without some reassurring answers I don't think it can be worth anything approaching the asking.

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Even if he gets a deposit fully returned, docking and survey will cost maybe £1,000, and that will be £1,000 less available to offer on any other boat, if this one is a duffer

From the OPs other thread, i think he is happy with the sellers two year old survey. 

[rusty69]

32 minutes ago, Athy said:

Of course.

Anyway, for the O.P.'s benefit, most Hallmark boats may be regarded as bottom-of-range cheap craft. They tend to keep their value fairly well, as they were so cheap in the first place.

As Mr. Board points out, they had previously built some more upmarket boats when they were a smaller-scale operation, but these will not generally fall within your desired price range.

Here is one (admittedly not the 70ft OP is after) 

 

[alan_fincher]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

From the OPs other thread, i think he is happy with the sellers two year old survey. 

How can he be happy to buy an overplated boat on the basis of a survey that doesn't mention that overplating, (or the need for any)?

That would be totally bonkers, wouldn't it?

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

How can he be happy to buy an overplated boat on the basis of a survey that doesn't mention that overplating, (or the need for any)?

That would be totally bonkers, wouldn't it?

Buying a boat is bonkers, buying two is just daft, buying three is just insane

[rusty69]

 

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

How can he be happy to buy an overplated boat on the basis of a survey that doesn't mention that overplating, (or the need for any)?

That would be totally bonkers, wouldn't it?

I personally would commission my own survey, even more so if i was a first time buyer. 

Just now, tree monkey said:

Buying a boat is bonkers, buying two is just daft, buying three is just insane

Jeez, I've got 6.5,i must be an Eeeeeeeeeeeejut 

Edited July 23, 2018 by rusty69

[alan_fincher]

4 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

Buying a boat is bonkers, buying two is just daft, buying three is just insane

Not the investments I was assured they would be then? ?

Edited July 23, 2018 by alan_fincher

[Athy]

51 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Neither will the 'budget' range. 50 here sold for mid 30's

 

 

I don't believe it has been yet, has it?

That, if I'm not mistaken, is a "Millennium", introduced a couple of years after they brought out their budget range and having a rather higher spec.

[jetzi]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

You were not able to answer many of the questions I raised.

You appera to know nothing about who built it, or the subsequent overplating that a survey  has apparently failed to mention.

You're right, apologies, there were two questions that I haven't been able to answer:

1. "who is Don Pride". Since none of you have heard of him, nor does a Google search turn up anything, I think it's safe to say that Joan is a no-name brand, likely an enthusiastic amateur or low-end boat builder.
2. "whats up with the overplating" the current owner says there was overplating done by the previous owner, but the survey done when they bought her does not mention it. So it's possible that a) there is no overplating, and the owner is mistaken, b) there was overplating done after the survey, and the owner is being deceptive, or c) the survey failed to mention it, despite being a pretty comprehensive survey.

I felt that the 2-year old survey was recent enough and had intended on just getting an in-water valuation. You guys have definitely scared me enough to get a full out-of-water survey done if we do buy Joan. But just to reiterate she is not the only boat we are looking at, simply an example of one that we liked.

 

---

 

Regarding the actual question "How to value a boat?", I think all in all I have got an answer. Thanks to all those who gave advice. I have learned a lot from this discussion about the value of boats, namely:

1. the builder (brand) is of primary importance (but they're hard to rank)
2. the interior fit-out is possibly next
3. engine type, hull maintenance record, details about overplating etc is next most important
4. length makes no price difference in 50' to 70' boats - larger boats are unpopular, can't navigate everywhere, & have higher maintenance costs
5. age makes next to no price difference in well-maintained boats, unless the craft is younger than 20 years.

Would you agree with this summary?

 

(For a little insight into the mind of a newbie, before this thread I would have put 3 and 5 at the top of my list of influential factors. Number 1 wasn't even on my radar, and 2 (the interior) I felt was pretty low on the list, as long as she was liveable, because we'd probably want to make our own improvements anyway!)

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

You're right, apologies, there were two questions that I haven't been able to answer:

1. "who is Don Pride". Since none of you have heard of him, nor does a Google search turn up anything, I think it's safe to say that Joan is a no-name brand, likely an enthusiastic amateur or low-end boat builder.
2. "whats up with the overplating" the current owner says there was overplating done by the previous owner, but the survey done when they bought her does not mention it. So it's possible that a) there is no overplating, and the owner is mistaken, b) there was overplating done after the survey, and the owner is being deceptive, or c) the survey failed to mention it, despite being a pretty comprehensive survey.

I felt that the 2-year old survey was recent enough and had intended on just getting an in-water valuation. You guys have definitely scared me enough to get a full out-of-water survey done if we do buy Joan. But just to reiterate she is not the only boat we are looking at, simply an example of one that we liked.

 

---

 

Regarding the actual question "How to value a boat?", I think all in all I have got an answer. Thanks to all those who gave advice. I have learned a lot from this discussion about the value of boats, namely:

1. the builder (brand) is of primary importance (but they're hard to rank)
2. the interior fit-out is possibly next
3. engine type, hull maintenance record, details about overplating etc is next most important
4. length makes no price difference in 50' to 70' boats - larger boats are unpopular, can't navigate everywhere, & have higher maintenance costs
5. age makes next to no price difference in well-maintained boats, unless the craft is younger than 20 years.

Would you agree with this summary?

 

(For a little insight into the mind of a newbie, before this thread I would have put 3 and 5 at the top of my list of influential factors. Number 1 wasn't even on my radar, and 2 (the interior) I felt was pretty low on the list, as long as she was liveable, because we'd probably want to make our own improvements anyway!)

You have evidently considered the various aspects carefully.

I would suggest that with an older boat, condition is more important than the original standing of the builder. I've seen some lovingly maintained Springers and some very shabby "better" boats. If the bits you can see look unkempt, think what condition the bits which you can't see may be in.

 

Oh, there's just one more thing: many older boats have a steel hull but a wooden or fibreglass top. These can be problematical (leakage for example); better to stick to all-steel if you can.

[Cheese]

For the interior fit-out there are two elements.  Original quality of build, fittings etc, and how well they have been maintained  - so how soon you may have to replace / repair parts (and that includes technical parts, such as batteries).  And a more subjective "design" element, which depends a lot on how well it will fit someone's intended lifestyle.  Some people will happily pay more for say, an awkward / inaccessible engine bay if it gives more living space - because they plan to  sit in a marina all year and rarely move.  With two of you, and fully intending to cruise around the network, you may be prepared to pay more for something that works better for that purpose, e.g. the ease of delivering the steerer a cup of tea!