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Maps of waterways - especially by boat length accessibility?


jetzi

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We're buying a liveaboard narrowboat and we're torn between buying a 57' (with the freedom to go anywhere but the Little Ouse to Brandon) and a 70' (with all of the extra living space she provides). It seems that whether a 70' is a curse or a blessing really depends on whether the seller is advertising a 57' or a 70'!

We will be spending many long days on the boat as we both work from home (boat). So we really want the maximum length we can. However, our dream is to explore as much of the waterways as possible and we'd hate to be limited by our vessel.

 

This page at ABNB boat brokerage seems like an excellent resource which lists canals by name and maximum boat length. This is great - but we have no idea where most of these places are or how much of the canal network they represent. Without planning out our route for the next 5 years I'm not sure how much we'd be missing out on by buying a larger boat!

Is there some kind of map that shows canals by boat length?

 

OpenCanalMap seems good but doesn't really answer my question. I feel like with a bit of work I could query OpenStreetMap to get answers, but not sure how complete it is. The excellent map from the Inland Waterways Association doesn't unfortunately show boat size restrictions. If what I want doesn't exist - would anyone find it useful if I tried to create a map like this?

Are there any other useful canal maps I should be aware of?

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7 minutes ago, ivan&alice said:

We're buying a liveaboard narrowboat and we're torn between buying a 57' (with the freedom to go anywhere but the Little Ouse to Brandon) and a 70' (with all of the extra living space she provides). It seems that whether a 70' is a curse or a blessing really depends on whether the seller is advertising a 57' or a 70'!

We will be spending many long days on the boat as we both work from home (boat). So we really want the maximum length we can. However, our dream is to explore as much of the waterways as possible and we'd hate to be limited by our vessel.

 

This page at ABNB boat brokerage seems like an excellent resource which lists canals by name and maximum boat length. This is great - but we have no idea where most of these places are or how much of the canal network they represent. Without planning out our route for the next 5 years I'm not sure how much we'd be missing out on by buying a larger boat!

Is there some kind of map that shows canals by boat length?

 

OpenCanalMap seems good but doesn't really answer my question. I feel like with a bit of work I could query OpenStreetMap to get answers, but not sure how complete it is. The excellent map from the Inland Waterways Association doesn't unfortunately show boat size restrictions. If what I want doesn't exist - would anyone find it useful if I tried to create a map like this?

Are there any other useful canal maps I should be aware of?

I am not aware of any map that lists canals in the way you mention, but why not purchase a map of the waterways - Nicholsons, Imrays, or the one produced by the IWA given free I think to new members. All these maps show waterways on one sheet so it would be easy to identify the ones you are interested (from the ABNB page)  and you would very quickly get an idea of the cruising area you would be able to cover.. All these maps also distinguish between wide bean and narrow canals so the cruising areas by width are covered.

 

Good luck

 

Howard

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In a nutshell. BUY A 70 FOOTER or deffo 65 or above...............Just my opinion of course having lived on 8 over the past near on thirty years to include 42, 56, 57, 65, 70 and at present 68feet. The bits you cant go on are realy the Leeds and Liverpool and a couple of the smaller Yorkshire bits and the Lancaster. The rest you can do and the extra space is MUCH better to have. Bear in mind design as a for instance my present 68 footer has more space than my 70 footer had.

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I pretty sure there's a download available on the CRT website which lists maximum dimensions for boats on various waterways.  Also the Canalplan website will allow you to input boat length into the route planner so you could use 70', 65', 60' (or whatever) in that and try out some routes or places you fancy to see which lengths meet your cruising hopes.

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I&A, if you are not too fussed about where you'll go, you could consider a space-effective widebeam boat; these are increasingly popular on, for example, the Grand Union Canal, but will not penetrate canals such as the South Oxford because the locks are too narrow.

Regarding your comment about ABNB (a trustworthy company by the way) it would scarcely be a labour of Hercules for you to find out where the various places are.

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1 hour ago, ivan&alice said:

So we really want the maximum length we can. However, our dream is to explore as much of the waterways as possible and we'd hate to be limited by our vessel.

Then you should get one under 60ft, because one day you will surely want to spend time on the beautiful Leeds and Liverpool, and cross the Ribble Link to the Lancaster.

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Stick to 60 ft and you should get to most places, even if you have to 'wiggle' around lock gates or diagonal in some locks.

Chris Clegg's time map (A4 size)shows waterways as  lines and in terms of time needed to work/cruise between two points.  He only shows times for waterways he has cruised himself in his own boat which is 60ft 6ins.

 

IWA sell them https://www.waterways.org.uk/shop/product_details?id=1030

 

 

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Most boats appear to me to be designed to be 'pretty' with lots of open space for stretched out comfort where a lot of length is required.

It is surprising just how much clutter is accumulated over the years - but with care and planning and an eye on being practical -  a 60ft boat might be plenty big enough if every inch of available space can be fitted with shelves, cupboards, hooks, clips and brackets for stowing everything tidily - and readily to hand.

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18 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

I pretty sure there's a download available on the CRT website which lists maximum dimensions for boats on various waterways.  Also the Canalplan website will allow you to input boat length into the route planner so you could use 70', 65', 60' (or whatever) in that and try out some routes or places you fancy to see which lengths meet your cruising hopes.

Said download as pdf

 

32433-waterway-dimensions.pdf

 

 

Edited by reg
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4 minutes ago, reg said:

I have said it before and must reiterate that this list must be taken with a pinch of salt and local knowledge obtained. Just one place I personaly know that is very wrong on this list is Thorne lock on the Stainforth and keadby canal. The list if I remember it correctly states something like 62 feet for a narrowboat when in fact a 70 footer can make the passage. This is a huge discrepancy and a very important one as many people will not go that route as they fear Trent End when Thorne is in reality passable. Without reading the whole list I reckon there must be others.

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26 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I have said it before and must reiterate that this list must be taken with a pinch of salt and local knowledge obtained. Just one place I personaly know that is very wrong on this list is Thorne lock on the Stainforth and keadby canal. The list if I remember it correctly states something like 62 feet for a narrowboat when in fact a 70 footer can make the passage. This is a huge discrepancy and a very important one as many people will not go that route as they fear Trent End when Thorne is in reality passable. Without reading the whole list I reckon there must be others.

Based on your  knowledge Would you say this is a discrepancy between the actual length and the transit length? 

If so it would seem to be that a transit length may be a useful piece of data to obtain. 

 

I can understand why CRT publish actual lengths as opposed to transit lengths. 

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1 minute ago, reg said:

Based on your  knowledge Would you say this is a discrepancy between the actual length and the transit length? 

If so it would seem to be that a transit length may be a useful piece of data to obtain. 

 

I can understand why CRT publish actual lengths as opposed to transit lengths. 

I think the problem with Thorne lock is that being a widebeam commercial waterway then that is the figure quoted as its a deffo shorter lock than narrow canal locks. Also coming downhill you have to come backwards to ensure not sitting on the cill. The real problem is that due to its location if say 62 foot is to be believed then anyone with longer boats say from the midlands fear going to shall we say York as the boat owners think they have to carry on past Keadby and round Trent End when in reality the much simpler way is in at Keadby and through Thorne etc etc. So this one bit of the publication alone is a problem. Care needs to be taken with longer boats but 62 to 70 is a hell of a difference.

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So in reality we have to take the published data as the base data to work on, if we take on trust for the sake of argument that it is accurate then my understanding is that what you would like to see is a, for the sake of a better name, a "transit length" dataset? 

 

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It looks like the blue star survey download is the better bet as it seems to take into account your concerns and observations. 

Sample below 

 

"Additional Cruising notes: 1. Through passage is limited by Thorne Lock. For the Bramwith to Thorne section, dimensions are as for the main line to Rotherham. Passage from River Trent to Thorne is limited by Keadby Lock 77ft 8ins x 22ft 6ins (23.67m x 6.86m) although longer craft can be admitted when the tide makes a level.
2. Narrowboats up to about 61ft 8ins can pass through Throne Lock diagonally."

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17 minutes ago, reg said:

So in reality we have to take the published data as the base data to work on, if we take on trust for the sake of argument that it is accurate then my understanding is that what you would like to see is a, for the sake of a better name, a "transit length" dataset? 

 

Yes it would be far easier for boaters to make an informed decision. The particular boat I went through with was  Hudson 70 footer but that doesn't mean any and every 70 footer due to design etc would get through. However 8 feet is a hell of a difference to play with.

3 minutes ago, reg said:

It looks like the blue star survey download is the better bet as it seems to take into account your concerns and observations. 

Sample below 

 


2. Narrowboats up to about 61ft 8ins can pass through Throne Lock diagonally."

Way off the mark. 61 foot 8 inches will rattle about like a wasp in a bean can.

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15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Way off the mark. 61 foot 8 inches will rattle about like a wasp in a bean can.

Yep just looking at the data and the statement 


"2. Narrowboats up to about 61ft 8ins can pass through Throne Lock diagonally."

Seems a bit ambiguous as the lock length is given as 61ft 8ins but is a wide lock so if a wide boat of 61ft 8ins can use it then logical a Narrowboat >61ft 8ins should, as you say, be able to get through diagonally. 

 

Just as a ball park figure what percentage of the lock lengths would you envisage requiring length soecific "special transit notes"? 

If it is a very small percentage then it might be easiest to identify them and simply start a thread with localised knowledge. 

 

Edited by reg
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There are lots of really helpful data sources here everyone, thanks a lot. We don't really have anywhere in particular that we want to go, we were thinking if we are able to cover more than 60-70% of the network that should keep us busy for the next 4 or 5 years. Although I have to agree with @rgreg that the winding canals with tight locks - i.e. some of the bits that we'd be missing out on - do seem like they would be the most interesting (such as the Ribble Link, Leeds and Liverpool).

 

I took the link that @Dinz provided and "greyed out" all the canals that were listed as being under 70 foot in the other link that @reg provided. I excluded the Thorne lock discrepancy that @mrsmelly pointed out and also the Droitwich canal limitation (I can't figure out where that is). I ended up with the following map which is obviously very rough but it gives me a picture of how limited we'll be in a 70 foot boat - and the answer is not very!

 

Thanks for all the advice around the comfort of a boat being a lot to do with the design and how well you use the space. I understand that but it stands to reason that a well-laid-out 70' boat is going to be bigger than a well-laid-out 57'. I didn't think it would make much of a difference but having viewed both we do feel that the 70' is going to me much more comfortable and better for our marriage (especially as recovering land lubbers!)

 

20 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

In a nutshell. BUY A 70 FOOTER

 

Thanks @mrsmelly, I think this is the straightforward advice we need!


 

CanalMap70ft.gif

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2 minutes ago, reg said:

Yep just looking at the data and the statement 


"2. Narrowboats up to about 61ft 8ins can pass through Throne Lock diagonally."

Seems a bit ambiguous as the lock length is given as 61ft 8ins but is a wide lock so if a wide boat of 61ft 8ins can use it then logical a Narrowboat >61ft 8ins should, as you say, be able to get through. 

 

Just as a ball park figure what percentage of the lock lengths would you envisage requiring length soecific "special transit notes"? 

If it is a very small percentage then it might be easiest to identify them and simply start a thread with localised knowledge. 

 

I think its very few individual locks that would require special transit notes but a good idea if we could have a list on the forum. From personal experience and the fact it must put many people off ever venturing north then the vastly incorrect Thorne dimensions is serious problem.

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20 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I think its very few individual locks that would require special transit notes but a good idea if we could have a list on the forum. From personal experience and the fact it must put many people off ever venturing north then the vastly incorrect Thorne dimensions is serious problem.

OK I'm moving today but over the next week I'll have a look at the data and have a ponder on the best way to present these data "exceptions", any better ideas than mine will obviously be welcomed. 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but I think it has been a useful diversion. 

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Thorne lock has 3 sets of gates and you normally use the shorter two giving you 60ish feet. If the back set are used you have a lock over 150feet but I don't know if they are workable and who has the key.  Looking at some of the boats around there they have been used in the last few years.

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3 minutes ago, Detling said:

Thorne lock has 3 sets of gates and you normally use the shorter two giving you 60ish feet. If the back set are used you have a lock over 150feet but I don't know if they are workable and who has the key.  Looking at some of the boats around there they have been used in the last few years.

Sorry you have that wrong old bean. That's Bramwith lock iirc a different kettle of fish. :cheers:

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