Jump to content

What is the Rochdale actually like?


nicknorman

Featured Posts

The water tap shown on the online maps at lock 28 isn't working, so I think your next one on the way down is Tod. However, we did get a fill from some friendly locals there - if you moor on the tow path just before the lock landing above lock 28 I'm sure they'll help you out!

 

Walsden is a good spot for a few days, to try the chip shop and explore the massive garden centre. But for a longer stay I'd want to be in Tod - more shops, pubs and a station with more trains.

 

They've started letting water down so hopefully we'll be afloat here soon. Just seen they've closed it between here and Hebden so no one is getting through and onto Sowerby.

 

And yes, lots of excellent hill walking about here, along with good buses to get around it.

Edited by BoatyCath
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 23/07/2018 at 14:08, Dave123 said:

No the rainfall isn't their fault and given that the north west usually has plenty it wouldn't ever seem like a good investment to improve water storage in that area. But the various canal breaches and long term closure at Marple are the fault of CRT!

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. As I understand it, much of the problem stems from the under whelming restoration work which pre-dated CaRT anyway. This particularly applies to Rochdale and Huddersfield Narrow. The restorations seemed to have concentrated on what can be seen rather than what cannot - hence the top is often uncomfortable close to the bottom. Lock structures in particular gave a difficult legacy which, in a sense, was unfunded at handover. A commercial business, and even some public bodies, would refuse to take on such responsibilities without proper funding in place for the long term but BW were not in a position to take that line, it seems. I somehow doubt that the collapses at Marple are entirely down to what has or has not been done post-restoration (even if you take the view that not enough has been done) Would the present situation have been any better if BW had insisted that the restoration bodies kept long term responsibility for maintenance? Think Lower Stratford? (I know that Wey Navigation is a counter example but not Basingstoke)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I'm not sure that is entirely fair. As I understand it, much of the problem stems from the under whelming restoration work which pre-dated CaRT anyway. This particularly applies to Rochdale and Huddersfield Narrow. The restorations seemed to have concentrated on what can be seen rather than what cannot - hence the top is often uncomfortable close to the bottom. Lock structures in particular gave a difficult legacy which, in a sense, was unfunded at handover. A commercial business, and even some public bodies, would refuse to take on such responsibilities without proper funding in place for the long term but BW were not in a position to take that line, it seems. I somehow doubt that the collapses at Marple are entirely down to what has or has not been done post-restoration (even if you take the view that not enough has been done) Would the present situation have been any better if BW had insisted that the restoration bodies kept long term responsibility for maintenance? Think Lower Stratford? (I know that Wey Navigation is a counter example but not Basingstoke)

There is a hint of truth in this, and clearly “fixing” the navigation couldn’t realistically be achieved overnight. However the impression we got from the Hud Narrow is that things are in decline and suffering from an absolute absence of any husbandry or routine maintenance. Paddles mechanisms rusty, not having seen lubrication in months or years, some incredibly stiff even for fit blokes, paddles not working, anti-vandal locks either not lockable, or not unlockable. Visitor mooring signs removed so as to avoid embarrassment that there is only about 1’ of water at the side (there is ONE visitor mooring on the west side of the Hud - ie room for ONE boat). Other moorings with bollards are unusable, at least if you want to get into the bank.

 

Lots of locks with massive leakage behind the walls, which apart from spraying the boat means the interstices of the lock wall getting eroded, causing voiding and eventually a crisis closure like at lock 9E. Simply require repointing. Locks with external leaks onto the towpath - an even worse warning of severe voiding.

 

Locks with massive leakage from the gates, either top or bottom - which is where 50% or more of the water actually goes.

 

And yet a plethora of shiny new blue signage. A lovely Disneyland at Standedge tunnel.

 

Absolutely not impressed with the way the NW waterways are (not) run.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

However the impression we got from the Hud Narrow is that things are in decline and suffering from an absolute absence of any husbandry or routine maintenance. Paddles mechanisms rusty, not having seen lubrication in months or years, some incredibly stiff even for fit blokes, paddles not working, anti-vandal locks either not lockable, or not unlockable. Visitor mooring signs removed so as to avoid embarrassment that there is only about 1’ of water at the side (there is ONE visitor mooring on the west side of the Hud - ie room for ONE boat). Other moorings with bollards are unusable, at least if you want to get into the bank.

Over the last 5 years a great many gates have been replaced, doing a lot to address the leaky gate issue.

Some of the stiffer paddle gear has now gone. (A few years ago I broke a windlass on Lock 23e in Slaithwaite, but 2 weeks ago it had new gates and was easy to use.)
I can only recall around 3 or 4 paddles not working on the entire canal 2 weeks ago.
Earlier this year the Huddersfield Canal Society carried out an inspection of all the anti-vandal devices on the canal and over the 74 locks there were just 6 anti-vandal devices that were fitted but not working.

There are offside visitor moorings for 2 boats above Lock 4w in Stalybridge, for 1 or 2 boats above Lock 5w, for around 4 above Lock 6w and a further 2 or 3 opposite Tesco. All are on re-built pounds with vertical wash walls.

There are offside moorings for 3 boats above Lock 21w in Uppermill which are deeper than the towpath side moorings there.
There are visitor moorings for 3 boats below Lock 24w where we got into the side even with water levels down.
There are a number of deep moorings, some with rings, on the approach to Standedge Tunnel at Diggle.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i don’t think the HNC is fit for purpose. Some paddle gear hadn’t seen any lubrication for a long, long time making them not only difficult to wind up but difficult to wind down. No danger of dropping them and they made the anti vandal locks look a bit redundant. Then as you come down from the summit into Huddersfield, the type of key changes. I’m going to get shouted at for saying this but I would rather they spent money in keeping other parts of the system working than spending it on that canal. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MartinClark said:

Over the last 5 years a great many gates have been replaced, doing a lot to address the leaky gate issue.

Some of the stiffer paddle gear has now gone. (A few years ago I broke a windlass on Lock 23e in Slaithwaite, but 2 weeks ago it had new gates and was easy to use.)
I can only recall around 3 or 4 paddles not working on the entire canal 2 weeks ago.
Earlier this year the Huddersfield Canal Society carried out an inspection of all the anti-vandal devices on the canal and over the 74 locks there were just 6 anti-vandal devices that were fitted but not working.

There are offside visitor moorings for 2 boats above Lock 4w in Stalybridge, for 1 or 2 boats above Lock 5w, for around 4 above Lock 6w and a further 2 or 3 opposite Tesco. All are on re-built pounds with vertical wash walls.

There are offside moorings for 3 boats above Lock 21w in Uppermill which are deeper than the towpath side moorings there.
There are visitor moorings for 3 boats below Lock 24w where we got into the side even with water levels down.
There are a number of deep moorings, some with rings, on the approach to Standedge Tunnel at Diggle.

 

Of course there are places to moor (more of that in a moment) but my point was that the only place that has designated CRT moorings with signage is Uppermills. Although on the offside there is room for 2 average length boats (3 short ones) half the mooring is effectively unavailable due to the tree stump that juts out and would impact the cabin sides of most boats including ours.

 

Yes you can moor in Stalybridge, but who would want to, it’s a dump with lots of dodgy people around (though to be fair, also lots of friendly people). This is why there are no boats moored there. The “offside” moorings still have full public access, though less footfall than the other side. We struggled to get alongside at Tesco’s due to some underwater obstruction (probably a trolley).

 

The moorings below 24W looked OK abut of course not being signed, are 14 day and thus 2 of the 3 were occupied by the same boats when we came down, as up. Those are however probably the best moorings on the W side apart from Roaches and the summit. Yes the summit moorings are quite pleasant and deep, but once again are not official signed visitor moorings.

 

There are a lot of potential moorings, with bollards, that are only a foot or so deep with rocks on the bottom. And when you pass Tesco’s and the pub at Greenfield, there is a no-where to tie your boat to, despite a new concrete canal wall.

 

Such a shame, because the canal could really super. Well it is really super, but it seems that it is made unnecessarily hard to enjoy it.

 

We went down 11 locks east side and then turned back (due to lock 9E being closed for another week) and I took some notes:

pound between lock 32&33 nearly dry despite bywash flowing in, due to a structural leak somewhere.

33E bottom paddle incredibly stiff even for a fit bloke.

33E top paddle can’t remove vandal lock (rounded off)

34E top (hydraulic) paddle not working 

38E bad leak from bottom gate. One top paddle has a travel restricted so very slow to finish filling coupled with leak = wasted water

41E badly leaking top gate. Bad leak from bottom gate and lock wall spewing water below bottom gate = voiding.

42E massive leak from bottom gate, had to use boat to force gate open. This is the summit lock just a few hundred yards from the tunnel visitor centre and lots of CRT bods.

 

Plus a couple of locks which when full, leaked water onto the towpath near the bottom gate which means lack of pointing and voiding in progress. Virtually all paddle gear lacking any sign of recent lubrication. And it’s not as of the lube has been washed off with all that rain!

 

As I said, a shame because it could be a fantastic canal.

 

Edited by nicknorman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Little Else said:

i don’t think the HNC is fit for purpose. Some paddle gear hadn’t seen any lubrication for a long, long time making them not only difficult to wind up but difficult to wind down. No danger of dropping them and they made the anti vandal locks look a bit redundant. Then as you come down from the summit into Huddersfield, the type of key changes. I’m going to get shouted at for saying this but I would rather they spent money in keeping other parts of the system working than spending it on that canal. 

You wont like the Rochdale then. A big range of paddle gear and a big selection of anti-vandal mechanisms, some of which are a real fiddle. Some of the paddles are Really hard work and I have resorted to using my long throw windlass even though it might result in bruised knuckles. Trouble is that to some people this is all part of the history and it would be very sad to loose it. Our volunteer lock-keeper/Canal geek got very excited when we moved from a Rochdale mk1 to a Rochdale mk2 region ?.

 

"Fit for purpose" is a new and  interesting concept, do you mean not fit for leisure use or not fit for the big rufty-tufty male boatmen who the canal was originally designed for????

 

Despite extensive beer drinking temptations I think the Rochdale is actually resulting in weight loss.

 

................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, dmr said:

You wont like the Rochdale then. A big range of paddle gear and a big selection of anti-vandal mechanisms, some of which are a real fiddle. Some of the paddles are Really hard work and I have resorted to using my long throw windlass even though it might result in bruised knuckles. Trouble is that to some people this is all part of the history and it would be very sad to loose it. Our volunteer lock-keeper/Canal geek got very excited when we moved from a Rochdale mk1 to a Rochdale mk2 region ?.

 

"Fit for purpose" is a new and  interesting concept, do you mean not fit for leisure use or not fit for the big rufty-tufty male boatmen who the canal was originally designed for????

 

Despite extensive beer drinking temptations I think the Rochdale is actually resulting in weight loss.

 

................Dave

But of course it would be wrong to conclude that all the diverse paddle gear has some merit due to it being original. It isn’t!

 

In my view there is no need to redesign paddle gear to make it easy to use, what the need is to apply some lubrication as would have been done in those “good old days”. Not a particularly onerous need, I would have thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

But of course it would be wrong to conclude that all the diverse paddle gear has some merit due to it being original. It isn’t!

 

In my view there is no need to redesign paddle gear to make it easy to use, what the need is to apply some lubrication as would have been done in those “good old days”. Not a particularly onerous need, I would have thought.

I think this lubrication thing might be a bit of a red herring (must be a rude joke in there somewhere). The clearances in the gears are huge though I accept there is some sliding contact. The issue is that the gear ratios are set in favour of big effort and speed (with a strong operator) rather than ease of operation. I am generally opposed to retro fitted gearboxes as they are dangerous in an emergency. I suspect the water pressure force on the paddles is a big factor but don't know if this has got worse with modern restorations. Maybe I will do a grease experiment over the winter. I have noticed that CaRT are testing an environmentally friendly grease in some locations and it washes away in the first rain shower.

 

...............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think this lubrication thing might be a bit of a red herring (must be a rude joke in there somewhere). The clearances in the gears are huge though I accept there is some sliding contact. The issue is that the gear ratios are set in favour of big effort and speed (with a strong operator) rather than ease of operation. I am generally opposed to retro fitted gearboxes as they are dangerous in an emergency. I suspect the water pressure force on the paddles is a big factor but don't know if this has got worse with modern restorations. Maybe I will do a grease experiment over the winter. I have noticed that CaRT are testing an environmentally friendly grease in some locations and it washes away in the first rain shower.

 

...............Dave

The thing is, the same depth of lock with similar paddle gear on other parts of the system is much easier to use. Why? Well until proven otherwise I would say “lubrication”. It is not just the gear mesh it is also the shaft bearings which are plain iron on steel. I watched Jeff wind up one really stiff paddle today (on the Ashton) and little clouds of rust were coming out of one of the shaft bearings. Some are nearly as stiff to wind down with no water pressure, as to wind up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The thing is, the same depth of lock with similar paddle gear on other parts of the system is much easier to use. Why? Well until proven otherwise I would say “lubrication”. It is not just the gear mesh it is also the shaft bearings which are plain iron on steel. I watched Jeff wind up one really stiff paddle today (on the Ashton) and little clouds of rust were coming out of one of the shaft bearings. Some are nearly as stiff to wind down with no water pressure, as to wind up.

This could be an interesting project for anybody with basic engineering skills. We need volunteer engineers! Most CaRT volunteers are lock helpers or boat drivers (at least up here) or "meeters and greeters". I met a volunteer on the K&A with an engineering background doing a very good canalside rebuild of a paddle gearbox. The stiff paddles here are stiff to raise but generally drop easily, though have the odd stiff spot especially when almost closed.

Have done a Lot of locks today but not as many as you ?.

 

................Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, dmr said:

I think this lubrication thing might be a bit of a red herring (must be a rude joke in there somewhere). The clearances in the gears are huge though I accept there is some sliding contact. The issue is that the gear ratios are set in favour of big effort and speed (with a strong operator) rather than ease of operation. I am generally opposed to retro fitted gearboxes as they are dangerous in an emergency. I suspect the water pressure force on the paddles is a big factor but don't know if this has got worse with modern restorations. Maybe I will do a grease experiment over the winter. I have noticed that CaRT are testing an environmentally friendly grease in some locations and it washes away in the first rain shower.

 

...............Dave

I don't know about the situation on the Rochdale or Huddersfield, but certainly at many places on more Southerly canals the switch from wooden to "nylon" (or whatever other plastic they use) paddles has made many locks harder to wind.  The nylon may need replacing less, and be less susceptible to damage, but it distorts under wsater pressure meaning you are not attempting to drag a flat paddle over the hole, but one which has distorted into a decidedly "non flat" shape.

No amount of oiling and greasing paddles can compensate for the "plastic" paddles needing a lot more effort to draw.

 

22 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

 I watched Jeff wind up one really stiff paddle today (on the Ashton) and little clouds of rust were coming out of one of the shaft bearings.

With the exception of a few locks at the Manchester end, I recall the Ashton as having almost entirely all hydraulic paddle gear.

Have some of the former hydraulics now been replaced by geared ones? (it is now several years since we last did it).

Edited by alan_fincher
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

With the exception of a few locks at the Manchester end, I recall the Ashton as having almost entirely all hydraulic paddle gear.

Have some of the former hydraulics now been replaced by geared ones? (it is now several years since we last did it).

Most are hydraulic at the top, most are not hydraulic at the bottom (from memory, but could just be a few mechanical). Anyway there are certainly some non-hydraulic bottom ones. I merged two thoughts, one that many of the Hud Narrow locks we did over the past few days are mechanical, stiff and unlubricated, with actually seeing puffs of rust dust from a mechanical Ashton paddle this morning.

Edited by nicknorman
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

I don't know about the situation on the Rochdale or Huddersfield, but certainly at many places on more Southerly canals the switch from wooden to "nylon" (or whatever other plastic they use) paddles has made many locks harder to wind.  The nylon may need replacing less, and be less susceptible to damage, but it distorts under wsater pressure meaning you are not attempting to drag a flat paddle over the hole, but one which has distorted into a decidedly "non flat" shape.

No amount of oiling and greasing paddles can compensate for the paddles needing a lot more effort to draw.

I hope you are wrong.

 

Years ago we did the Tardebigge locks and the paddles were difficult. A lock keeper told us they were new plastic paddles and deforming (as you say) but that BW had learned the lesson and would be using a suitably stiff engineering plastic in future.

 

..............Dave

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, dmr said:

I hope you are wrong.

 

Years ago we did the Tardebigge locks and the paddles were difficult. A lock keeper told us they were new plastic paddles and deforming (as you say) but that BW had learned the lesson and would be using a suitably stiff engineering plastic in future.

 

..............Dave

I'd like to be wrong too.

My general observations say otherwise.

But as there are only certain types of locks and paddle gears where you can see part of the paddle exposed, it is often not possible to know what is on the end of that particular paddle rod.

Edited by alan_fincher
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wrote a report on the Rochdale paddle gear in 2004 after the canal opened. It was the sort of thing which should have been done before work began! I identified a number of different types of paddle gear, the oldest being on the water supply above the western top lock. The more modern Rochdale paddle gear was installed from around 1910, and was designed with a clutch mechanism such that they had to be wound up and down. Boatmen had tended to drop the earlier types, often damaging them, so the clutch was an attempt to make the gear more resilient. I seem to recall finding adverse comments by boatmen even then.

Going back to my original statement about being called in after the work had been done, this was a problem on both the Huddersfield and Rochdale. Their restoration was originally set out by volunteers who, though enthusiastic, did not have a good understanding of canal engineering. Both canals, but the Rochdale in particular, had had their water supplies reduced and too little thought was given as to where the water would come from. In some ways, if the canals had been restored by volunteers, this may have been overcome over time, but both were taken up as 'commercial' restorations, with local authorities taking a lead. They based their fund raising on the figures produced by the canal societies for restoration using volunteers, and the sums proved hopelessly inadequate. Hence, some work was not done, particularly dredging on the western end of the Rochdale. The standard of lock restoration was also poor in places, resulting in the problems with leakage today. Both restorations were done, viewed through rose-coloured spectacles, as a realistic approach to the cost of restoration using professional labour would possibly have made the projects impossible to achieve. It is easy to look back and criticise, but the restorations would probably not have been possible if priced realistically.

  • Greenie 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Of course there are places to moor (more of that in a moment) but my point was that the only place that has designated CRT moorings with signage is Uppermills.

 

Yes the summit moorings are quite pleasant and deep, but once again are not official signed visitor moorings.

 

As I said, a shame because it could be a fantastic canal.

So a shortage of signs, then?

11 hours ago, nicknorman said:

Yes you can moor in Stalybridge, but who would want to, it’s a dump with lots of dodgy people around (though to be fair, also lots of friendly people). This is why there are no boats moored there. The “offside” moorings still have full public access, though less footfall than the other side. We struggled to get alongside at Tesco’s due to some underwater obstruction (probably a trolley).

A friendly old chap told me that the re-opening of the canal was the best thing ever to happen in Stalybridge.  The unkind might say that was perfectly plausible having regard to the town as a whole, but his comment made an impression on me.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Tacet said:

So a shortage of signs, then?

 

My point about the signs is that, at the places with mooring bollards but insufficient depth /collapsing walls etc, there are posts for signs. But the signs themselves are absent. In my cynicism I suspect that CRT removed the signs when they received complaints about inadequate depth - if there isn’t a sign, it isn’t an official mooring and hence no need to provide adequate depth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, alan_fincher said:


 

With the exception of a few locks at the Manchester end, I recall the Ashton as having almost entirely all hydraulic paddle gear.

Have some of the former hydraulics now been replaced by geared ones? (it is now several years since we last did it).

Hydraulic paddle gear, now over 40 years old prevails. Proper mechanical gear has been fitted to tailgates on locks1,4,8 and 16 in the last 5 years.Oddly, when gates are replaced, some locks (e.g.11) get the old hydraulics fitted  back, I do hope this isn't something to do with them being listed structures, that is, they had hydraulics when listed so they have to have now.

Most of the hydraulic gear is worn out and not maintained properly, it requires the gear to be removed and sent to a specialist for expensive  repair. All ground paddles are hydraulic and I estimate 75% of them have some fault or other. Some paddles have not worked for several years (e.g. offside ground paddle at lock 8).

On a slightly different theme, I notice that some  new gate paddles  are considerably smaller than original, perhaps some  perceived reason of safety? Then one finds , if there is heavy leakage at the head gate, you can't empty the lock.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In a way the canal was.restored by "volunteers", cheap unskilled labour. The Manpower Services Commission and. It's Job Creation Scheme, circa 1983 dragooned the unemployed of the Borough. There were some plaques on lock gates, also saying who the gate was sponsored by, but I think they have long disappeared. The gates had been cheap, made of pine! Probably at Callis Mill. 

I wonder where the canal related skills came from for the JCS, certainly I knew supervisors who were recruited from the unemployed too. I think they just had to know which way to hold a pencil. 

 

Living in Littleborough, being unemployed myself, we used to wander around seeing what was going on. There is a large pool below Pike house Lock 45, there were some old rotten wooden hulls on the offside bank, dumped years before. 

Edited by Jim Riley
Cos I can.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎25‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 21:45, nicknorman said:

 

 

Yes you can moor in Stalybridge, but who would want to, it’s a dump with lots of dodgy people around (though to be fair, also lots of friendly people). This is why there are no boats moored there. The “offside” moorings still have full public access, though less footfall than the other side. We struggled to get alongside at Tesco’s due to some underwater obstruction (probably a trolley).

 

 

 

Stalybridge may not be the ideal town, but there are some f us that are trying to improve things. Boats regularly moor in the square in the middle of town for days on end with no problems. There are a couple of handy micro bars selling  local beers from micro breweries. A very good butchers and deli. bakeries and a cracking proper grocer's shop to name a few. 

 

Remember you are in the north, not the rich south east.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, captain birdseye said:

Stalybridge may not be the ideal town, but there are some f us that are trying to improve things. Boats regularly moor in the square in the middle of town for days on end with no problems. There are a couple of handy micro bars selling  local beers from micro breweries. A very good butchers and deli. bakeries and a cracking proper grocer's shop to name a few. 

 

Remember you are in the north, not the rich south east.

Sorry if I insulted your home town! As I said, the locals were friendly except for a few dodgy looking youths hanging around the square. There were no boats moored in that area and of course we didn’t see many boats elsewhere on that canal either. One is always a little wary of a town with all amenities but no boats moored and a lot of rubbish both on the cut and on the towpath. The implication is that no boats are moored there for a reason! I think part of the problem is that the excessive weeds on the paved areas make it look so run down and neglected. Probably the council’s fault I suppose. I’m not a Sotherner (I live in Scotland) but if you compared say Marsden with Stalybridge, there is a big difference in the look and feel of the place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.