Switch between solar panels and controller?

[dunfixing]

1 minute ago, reg said:

Never heard of that and is counter to everything I have heard, which controller is it as it makes no sense to me. How can it adjust to 12v or 24v if batteries are not connected? 

It won’t do anything till it has assessed the battery voltage, then it will try to open the input from the panel and use the available input too charge. If you connect batteries first there is a danger of the controller trying to use the maximum panel input as you switch the panel on. This would only be safe to do with no light on the panels, the reason is something called back EMF, a sudden input could bounce back into the panels and be amplified back into the controller, it is possible to get voltage spikes many times greater than the original panel voltage, but you could be lucky and no damage occurs, but why take the risk.

the instructions with these controllers should be followed or they won’t last long

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, dunfixing said:

instructions with these controllers should be followed or they won’t last

So what model tracer is it? (or perhaps a secret) 

[dunfixing]

Not sure as not on my boat at the moment.

[rusty69]

7 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Tracer BN Manual

 

http://www.epsolarpv.com/en/uploads/news/201710/1508813495487522.pdf

 

I have a breaker between panels and controller so I can disconnect the panels.

 

The Tracer manual suggests that it is protected against over voltage and current from the panels and batteries, so it shouldn't really matter what you do in terms of damaging the controller.

 

 

It also suggests

 

"4. Always connect the battery first, inorder to allow the controller to recognize the system voltage"

 

Why risk damage to 150 quids worth of electronics if there is no need. 

[Chewbacka]

1 hour ago, dunfixing said:

It won’t do anything till it has assessed the battery voltage, then it will try to open the input from the panel and use the available input too charge. If you connect batteries first there is a danger of the controller trying to use the maximum panel input as you switch the panel on. This would only be safe to do with no light on the panels, the reason is something called back EMF, a sudden input could bounce back into the panels and be amplified back into the controller, it is possible to get voltage spikes many times greater than the original panel voltage, but you could be lucky and no damage occurs, but why take the risk.

the instructions with these controllers should be followed or they won’t last long

Never come across a back emf from a non-inductive source or load such as a solar panel.  Unless it’s possible to get a back emf from the mppt controller transformer.

[reg]

2 hours ago, dunfixing said:

It won’t do anything till it has assessed the battery voltage, then it will try to open the input from the panel and use the available input too charge. If you connect batteries first there is a danger of the controller trying to use the maximum panel input as you switch the panel on. This would only be safe to do with no light on the panels, the reason is something called back EMF, a sudden input could bounce back into the panels and be amplified back into the controller, it is possible to get voltage spikes many times greater than the original panel voltage, but you could be lucky and no damage occurs, but why take the risk.

the instructions with these controllers should be followed or they won’t last long

Would love to debate this but no point as your wrong. Epsolar aka Tracer are right. 

Batteries first, no debate. 

I'm right 

Rusty is right

Epsolar are right

Others on here are right

 

Read page 12 of the downloaded Pdf that Richard linked to above. In my older hard copy manual it's page 6.  It clearly shows the order of connection. Until you have gone to your boat, identified the controller you have, reread the manual for the controller and can show me where the manual says you are correct I would suggest that your previous advice be ignored. If you can prove we are all wrong then  I will apologise and spend a week wearing a MAGA hat. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by reg

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, rusty69 said:

It also suggests

 

"4. Always connect the battery first, inorder to allow the controller to recognize the system voltage"

 

Why risk damage to 150 quids worth of electronics if there is no need. 

Agreed

 

[rusty69]

2 hours ago, dunfixing said:

Not sure as not on my boat at the moment.

When you are dunfixing it, perhaps you could advise 

[dunfixing]

18 hours ago, rusty69 said:

When you are dunfixing it, perhaps you could advise 

?

[Psycloud]

I have one of these between the panels (2 x 250w) and the 40a MPPT: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12-48V-Car-Audio-Circuit-Breaker-Protection-Fuse-Holder-4-8-AWG-Wire-40A/232854157027?hash=item36373076e3:g:vqsAAOSwwbNbTxNz

[Ssscrudddy]

This doesnt make any sense

On 20/07/2018 at 15:14, dunfixing said:

It won’t do anything till it has assessed the battery voltage
Agreed, implying the batteries need to be connected so that  it can assess the battery voltage

then it will try to open the input from the panel and use the available input too charge.
Agreed, implying the battery needs to have already been connected so it can assess the battery voltage, before it then goes on to open the input from the panel

<snip>If you connect batteries first</snip>
Massively disagree

> there is a danger of the controller trying to use the maximum panel input as you switch the panel on. This would only be safe to do with no light on the panels,
Agreed (only the bold part). That danger can only occur if the panels are connected & the controller has not assessed the battery voltage first (because they arent connected), implying the batteries need to be connected first.

the reason is something called back EMF, a sudden input could bounce back into the panels and be amplified back into the controller, it is possible to get voltage spikes many times greater than the original panel voltage, but you could be lucky and no damage occurs, but why take the risk.

the instructions with these controllers should be followed or they won’t last long

Basically like others are saying you have got it the wrong way around. Connect the batteries first, then connect the panels.

[reg]

3 hours ago, Ssscrudddy said:

Basically like others are saying you have got it the wrong way around. Connect the batteries first, then connect the panels

Have to agree with that dunfixing has misunderstood or misinterpreted one thing, no disgrace in that when trying to understand any subject happens to me and I suspect many others. 

Once that one thing is resolved I. E "Connect the batteries first" then the rest of the reasoning basically holds up and a bit more knowledge is gained. 

Everyone is then happy and I don't have wear a MAGA hat (which believe me is a massive deal to me) 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by reg

[dunfixing]

I’ve re read the instructions, it says do not insert the fuse to the batteries until everything is connected, and when disconnecting everything remove the battery fuse first.

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

I've been rereading my Tracer instructions, and they are a little  bit confusing.

 

I think they mean that you should complete the wiring between the battery and the panel before you put the fuse in. That's obviously sensible. Equally I completed the wiring from the controller up to the roof, before I plugged the panels into the connectors on the roof. Again that's sensible. 

However when it comes to switching things on, they are fairly clear that you should power up the battery side first (in my case, push the right hand circuit breaker up), and then connect up the panels (or in my case, push the left hand circuit breaker up).  When powering down, you do things in reverse, so disconnect the panels first and then cut the connection between battery and controller.

 

Does that help remove the confusion. What model do you have, dunfixing??

Edited July 23, 2018 by Scholar Gypsy
Incompetence

[rusty69]

14 minutes ago, dunfixing said:

I’ve re read the instructions, it says do not insert the fuse to the batteries until everything is connected, and when disconnecting everything remove the battery fuse first.

 

 

1 minute ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I've been rereading my Tracer instructions, and they are a little  bit confusing.

 

 

Just re read mine too. They could be clearer, so apologies to dunfixing if he has the same as me tracer 2215

[Scholar Gypsy]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

 

Just re read mine too. They could be clearer, so apologies to dunfixing if he has the same as me tracer 2215

That's the one I have got. It does seem to imply you connect the wiring up first (battery, load, panels in that order) and then put the battery fuse in.  That's not what I did!

http://www.ultisolar.com/Ultisolar-Tracer1215BN-Tracer2215BN-Tracer3215BN-Tracer4215BN-Manual.pdf

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

That's the one I have got. It does seem to imply you connect the wiring up first (battery, load, panels in that order) and then put the battery fuse in.  That's not what I did!

http://www.ultisolar.com/Ultisolar-Tracer1215BN-Tracer2215BN-Tracer3215BN-Tracer4215BN-Manual.pdf

Yes, i can see how it could be read like that (hence the apology). Its not what i did either. 

[reg]

1) Connect components to the charge controller in the sequence as shown above 
and pay much attention to the ―+‖ and ―-‖. Please don‘t turn on the fuse during the 
installation. When disconnecting the system, the order will be reserved.
2) After installation, power the controller and check the battery indicator on the 
controller, it will be green. If it‘s not green, please refer to chapter 4. Always 
connect the battery first, in order to allow the controller to recognize the system 
voltage.
3) The battery fuse should be installed as close to the battery as possible. The 
suggested distance is within 150mm.
4) The Tracer-BN series is a negative ground controller. Any negative connection 
of solar, load or battery can be earth grounded as required.

 

Also apologise to dunfixin, can see how that first highlighted sentence could confuse things, I think something must of got slightly confused during translation. 

I think the second highlighted sentence is the one to follow though. 

 

I'm wondering if it meant don't turn on the breaker during installation as that would make more sense. 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by reg

[reg]

Carefully reread my earlier post and I think I have just about escaped from having to wear a maga hat, close call though. 

(wasn't going to happen anyway) 

Edited July 23, 2018 by reg

[reg]

Just checked my earlier hard copy of the instructions and these say 

"1) Connect components to the charge controller in the sequence as shown above 
and pay much attention to the ―+‖ and ―-‖. 
2) After installation, power the controller and check the battery indicator on the 
controller, it will be green. If it‘s not green, please refer to chapter 5.
3) The battery fuse should be installed as close to the battery as possible. The 
suggested distance is within 150mm."

 

I think what has happened is they have tried to clarify the instructions by adding extra info, as per my earlier post and screen shot, but in doing so have just confused the issue more, again I surmise this may well be a translation issue. 
 

Whatever has happened I believe it should always be connect batteries first. 

 

[Gareth E]

It's beyond me why Tracer can't include a simple on/off switch or button within their 150 quids worth of electronics. It would add very little cost, surely?

[reg]

30 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

It's beyond me why Tracer can't include a simple on/off switch or button within their 150 quids worth of electronics. It would add very little cost, surely?

It would need 2, or 3 if load used, and they would have to be switched in the correct order. I can understand why they don't do it particularly at the price point 

[Scholar Gypsy]

34 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

It's beyond me why Tracer can't include a simple on/off switch or button within their 150 quids worth of electronics. It would add very little cost, surely?

Yes, what I would like is a rotary switch built into the controller that has three positions: 1) Everything off 2) Battery connected (via fuse), panels disconnected 3) Everything on.  Then powering the system up and down, would be simple, ie 1 to 3 via  a pause at 2, and then 3 to 1 via  a pause at 2. I've forgotten about the load of course ....

1 hour ago, reg said:

1) Connect components to the charge controller in the sequence as shown above 
and pay much attention to the ―+‖ and ―-‖. Please don‘t turn on the fuse during the 
installation. When disconnecting the system, the order will be reserved.
2) After installation, power the controller and check the battery indicator on the 
controller, it will be green. If it‘s not green, please refer to chapter 4. Always 
connect the battery first, in order to allow the controller to recognize the system 
voltage.
3) The battery fuse should be installed as close to the battery as possible. The 
suggested distance is within 150mm.
4) The Tracer-BN series is a negative ground controller. Any negative connection 
of solar, load or battery can be earth grounded as required.

 

Also apologise to dunfixin, can see how that first highlighted sentence could confuse things, I think something must of got slightly confused during translation. 

I think the second highlighted sentence is the one to follow though. 

 

I'm wondering if it meant don't turn on the breaker during installation as that would make more sense. 

 

 

I think you are right. If you wire up in the order shown, with the breaker closed (on), and then put the battery fuse in, then you have not "connected the battery first", you have connected the panels first. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Scholar Gypsy
Idiocy

[reg]

5 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

1 hour ago, reg said:

 

I think you are right. If you wire up in the order shown, with the breaker closed (on), and then put the battery fuse in, then you have not "connected the battery first", you have connected the panels first. 

Particularly as there are 3 fuses shown in the diagram and they are speaking in the singular. 

Can't think of any other explanation. 

5 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

1 hour ago, reg said:

 

I think you are right. If you wire up in the order shown, with the breaker closed (on), and then put the battery fuse in, then you have not "connected the battery first", you have connected the panels first. 

Particularly as there are 3 fuses shown in the diagram and they are speaking in the singular. 

Can't think of any other explanation. 

[reg]

I have emailed epsolar tech support for clarification on the installation instructions. Will let you know their reply when received. 

 

Also gave them a link to this thread