pre-purchase survey Who is liable for damage caused during a pre-purchase survey?

[Alan de Enfield]

On ‎16‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 22:58, WomanOnWater said:

so the question: if the boat is damaged while taking it out of the water, who is liable to pay? Us, the current owners, or the surveyors?

Looking thru' boat purchase contracts it would appear that you may well be responsible, as the damage is caused because of your (or your surveyors) actions. had you not lifted the boat, then it probably would not have 'broken'.

 

Here is the relevant clause :

 

 Risk

9.1 Until completion and delivery of the boat to the Buyer the boat shall be at the sole risk of the Seller who shall make good any damage (other than damage caused by the Buyer or his surveyor) sustained before actual delivery to the Buyer. 

[MtB]

And another point. Docking a boat for surveying on a slipway with a trolley is far kinder to and less risky for a seriously weak hull, than craning out in slings. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

And another point. Docking a boat for surveying on a slipway with a trolley is far kinder to and less risky for a seriously weak hull, than craning out in slings. 

 

Out of interest, why?

 

In general the docking trolleys I have seen only support the boat on two narrow-ish beams.

The points at which it is supported, and the relevant overhangs are in much the same place as might be used for crane slings.

Once fully out of the water, the boat weighs as much whether on a trolley, or lifted with a crane, so I'm not sure I can see that one stresses it more than the other.

[George and Dragon]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Looking thru' boat purchase contracts it would appear that you may well be responsible, as the damage is caused because of your (or your surveyors) actions. had you not lifted the boat, then it probably would not have 'broken'.

 

Here is the relevant clause :

 

 Risk

9.1 Until completion and delivery of the boat to the Buyer the boat shall be at the sole risk of the Seller who shall make good any damage (other than damage caused by the Buyer or his surveyor) sustained before actual delivery to the Buyer. 

And a surveyor ought to have insurance to cover against such an eventuality.

 

I assume that your offer is subject to survey. I've only bought one boat but that was certainly the case.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, George and Dragon said:

And a surveyor ought to have insurance to cover against such an eventuality.

 

I assume that your offer is subject to survey. I've only bought one boat but that was certainly the case.

But when it fell apart before the surveyor 'got to it' its unlikely that his insurers would accept liability.

[MtB]

4 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

Out of interest, why?

 

In general the docking trolleys I have seen only support the boat on two narrow-ish beams.

The points at which it is supported, and the relevant overhangs are in much the same place as might be used for crane slings.

 

 

The crane slings are floppy and bendy so they don't support the boat all the way across the width of the baseplate like the stocks on a slipway trolly.

 

With a crane, the whole of the lifting force is concentrated on the four corners where the slings bend around the chine. 

[rusty69]

Ours was craned last year. Won't be doing that again, will stick to trolley or dry dock in the future. 

[alan_fincher]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

The crane slings are floppy and bendy so they don't support the boat all the way across the width of the baseplate like the stocks on a slipway trolly.

 

With a crane, the whole of the lifting force is concentrated on the four corners where the slings bend around the chine. 

 

A degree of truth in that, I guess, but once it is out on the trolley, then apart from the area very close to those two cross members, the whole of the rest of the bottom is largely left "hanging from the sides".

Clearly it depends to some extent what, (if anything), the boat has in the way of a keelson along its length .  However, I would suggest nearly all modern build narrow boats have fairly regular beams bracing the boat width wise, (so even if the straps are pulling on the corners, those beams are bracing the bottom), but almost nothing length-wise, (so the ends, or the middle, aren't really braced to be well supported once along way from the lift point, or the trolley cross members.  That remains true whichever method is used, surely?

[Sea Dog]

7 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Something no-one has pointed out yet is the OP has just had the wind put up them by someone scaremongering, probably. A steel narrowboat disintegrating in the crane slings from corrosion is unheard of. It just never happens. Distortion of the hull at the sling pressure points on the chine as described by someone earlier is even very rare I'd say.

 

And on Alan's point about Springers rarely being scrapped, this applies to all steel narrow boats I reckon. They are ALWAYS repairable by someone, and worth more than the scrap value of the steel no matter how rusty. Can anyone here hand-on-heart say they know of a steel narrowboat ever being dismantled and cut up to recover the scrap steel, rather than repaired?

 You make good points.  Neither scenario is somewhere the inexperienced needs to find themselves though (IMHO anyway). For the novice, if something doesn't seem right, walk away - there's other boats.

[Tacet]

9 hours ago, George and Dragon said:

And a surveyor ought to have insurance to cover against such an eventuality.

 

 

9 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But when it fell apart before the surveyor 'got to it' its unlikely that his insurers would accept liability.

(Unless there is a contractual arrangement), the party that whose negligence caused the damage is likely to be held liable.

 

But if it was not reasonably apparent to a surveyor/crane operator/slipway chap exercising the usual care and skill that the boat would collapse when lifted/slipped, then it is hard lines on the owner or perhaps any buyer who is contractually committed.   The surveyor etc was not negligent.

[AndrewIC]

If the surveyor (who is your agent) causes damage through negligence while a-surveying, he is liable for his actions, and that's why he has, or should have, professional indemnity insurance. But he probably won't be taking the boat out of the water. If the yard who are taking the boat out of the water cause damage through negligence, they would be liable, and should be suitably insured as well. They are taking the boat out of the water on the instructions of the owner (or his agent, the broker). not you; you are in no position to give instructions regarding what is still someone else's property. If the boat really does fall to bits when being pulled out, I expect there will be an almighty row between the owner, their insurer and the yard as to whether this was negligent, or foreseeable, and who is to blame, but that's not you.

 

if the owner is reluctant to allow a survey, or claims the boat is too frail to come out of the water for a survey, then either it it really is, or he has something to hide that he doesn't want you or your surveyor to see. Either way, don't walk away, run!

[Richard10002]

14 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Something no-one has pointed out yet is the OP has just had the wind put up them by someone scaremongering, probably.

I thought this earlier today, but haven't had time to say so, until now. The OP has been researching Springers and has read that they are made of much thinner steel than most other narrowboats. To the uninitiated, this could be quite worrying.

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Richard10002

[Tom766]

Lots of scaremongering and a bit of snobbery re' Springers.  Bought mine a year ago, had a look over her, sailed off and got her lifted and blacked.  Hanging on strops she looked as good as new,  probably outlive me.  During the year i've tidied her up inside and out,  great intro to narrowboats.  Only thing that drives me to despair is the amount of weed that gets wrapped around the prop,  i'm sure more so that other types of narrowboat.....

Anyone know how to date these boats ?, i'm guessing mines 1979-1980.  Only because a friend had one very similar.

[WotEver]

On 21/07/2018 at 18:53, Tom766 said:

Anyone know how to date these boats ?, i'm guessing mines 1979-1980.  Only because a friend had one very similar.

Does it have a moustache? Got a photo?

[Traveller]

On 17/07/2018 at 09:20, pete.i said:

I do realise that this of absolutely no help to you but I really cannot understand why you have paid a deposit before getting a survey, especially on a springer. The chances are that the deposit is non returnable and you still have to pay for a survey. The fact that the present owner says they cannot find the paperwork for a survey they had done 3 years ago strikes me as supicious. I have all my survey reports for the two boats that I owned for seven years and I don't even own a boat now.

if buying through a broker you have to put a deposit down and the purchase then proceeds subject to survey. That's the way it worked for me and in my case the survey was so poor the sale was cancelled and my deposit refunded.

[X Alan W]

On 17/07/2018 at 00:23, Alan de Enfield said:

They are similar to the old Lada's and Skoda's, if they have been regularly lifted out, painted and maintained they are generally fine, if they have been used and not looked after they are 'death-traps'.

 

One thing to bear in mind is that the smaller Springers were built using 3.75mm steel, today, many insurers will not insure a boat with less then 4mm so you are on a loser to start with.

Rarely will you find two springers identical as they were built with second-hand salvaged steel - much of it from the big gas-holders seen in cities all over the country (maybe you are not of an age to remember them) so you may find one with a bit thicker steel.

 

Springers are now a little elderly and you will find that your insurers will definitely require a full Hull survey if the boat is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old depending on insurer. Most Springers obviously fall into this bracket.

 

Hopefully you'll be lucky and find the 1 in a 1000 'excellent' one.

I was always led to believe the original Springer plating was 1/8th & 3/16th later 4mm & at the end of production 6mm the "V" bottom was to over come the plate flex