Trent and Mersey stoppage

[rgreg]

5 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Meanwhile, down here at the other end, Common Lock (the one between Alrewas and Fradley) closed this morning – top gate lifted until the collar came off the upstand. This is undoubtedly down to poor technique, trying to make the boat to stay at the back of the lock when the force drags the boat forward. At Common, the effect is particularly severe and the impact on the top gate shoves it up and off. Fortunately it happens at least once per summer, so the guys at Fradley are well practised at putting it back.

 

The lock reopened this afternoon.

Which is why, when ascending the T&M locks, it's best to stay forward and gently ride up the top gate.

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't think the phrase "within our control" refers to the closures, but to the navigation, ie the damage or cause of closure isn't within their control, just that they've happened on navigations that they run. 

I would say that a maintenance failure or boater incident are "within CRT's control", whereas say a road vehicle crashing through a bridge parapet or a police closure to recover a body are not.

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, rgreg said:

Which is why, when ascending the T&M locks, it's best to stay forward and gently ride up the top gate.

No, one of the reasons why top gates get lifted off is because boat bows get hooked underneath something on the gate, handrail etc. 

And anyway, most of the locks S of Stoke have one ground paddle and one gate paddle at the top. If you are at the front of the lock, on several of the deeper ones you can’t open the gate paddle for a good while, or water will wash your bows and possibly the inside of the boat. So folk who ride the top gate have to faff about waiting for the lock to part fill on one paddle before they can open the other. It is just pointless time wasting faffery, unless your boat is very long in which case you have to lump it.

Edited July 11, 2018 by nicknorman

[rgreg]

16 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

No, one of the reasons why top gates get lifted off is because boat bows get hooked underneath something on the gate, handrail etc. 

And anyway, most of the locks S of Stoke have one ground paddle and one gate paddle at the top. If you are at the front of the lock, on several of the deeper ones you can’t open the gate paddle for a good while, or water will wash your bows and possibly the inside of the boat. So folk who ride the top gate have to faff about waiting for the lock to part fill on one paddle before they can open the other. It is just pointless time wasting faffery, unless your boat is very long in which case you have to lump it.

There may be exceptions where staying back is preferable but generally the widely accepted technique is to stay forward thus avoiding the boat being thrust forward and hitting the gate with ferocity.  As with all locks, you need to stay alert to any snagging risks. I always remember Maureen, bless her, for telling anyone off who did her lock any other way.

Edited July 11, 2018 by rgreg

[Allan(nb Albert)]

2 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I would say that a maintenance failure or boater incident are "within CRT's control", whereas say a road vehicle crashing through a bridge parapet or a police closure to recover a body are not.

I would agree 100%.

Under its grant agreement C&RT have to provide the number and duration of unplanned towpath closures. This is defined as unplanned closures that are caused by asset or infrastructure failure. 

The question is why to they not provide similar information for unplanned navigation closures.

For anyone interested in unplanned towpath closures here are the figures for 2017/18 (i.e financial year ending 31 March 2018) with the previous year in brackets.

 

Quote

 

Number of closures 2017/18 - 31 (2016/17 - 24)

Number of closure days 2017/18 - 452 (2016/17 - 294)

 

Perhaps someone would like to ask C&RT for similar figures for Navigation closures ...

[nicknorman]

2 minutes ago, rgreg said:

There may be exceptions where staying back is preferable but generally the widely accepted technique is to stay forward thus avoiding the boat being thrust forward and hitting the gate with ferocity.  As with all locks, you need to stay alert to any snagging risks.

The widely accepted practice you mention is only widely accepted but people who carry out the practice. My observations are that they are in the minority - very long boats excepted of course. Most people with your average 57’ boat don’t ride the top gate. Unless you are incompetent the boat does not get thrust forward thus hitting the gate with ferocity.

 

I have gone up thousands of locks using the technique I advocate and have never rammed the top gate with ferocity. Why is that? Is it just that I am very clever? And ditto my husband Jeff who uses the same technique when he is driving? Or could it be that anyone vaguely competent can do it without losing control and hitting the top gate, with those denying this simply having never tried it?

[Arthur Marshall]

Just now, rgreg said:

There may be exceptions where staying back is preferable but generally the widely accepted technique is to stay forward thus avoiding the boat being thrust forward and hitting the gate with ferocity.  As with all locks, you need to stay alert to any snagging risks.

Fine probably in a big boat. With a forty foot, singlehanding, all that happens if you try and stay forward is that the boat gets picked up by the initial surge, carried back and then hurled forward. Or you leave it in gear, the nose gets caught and you sink. I stay back and tie the thing up. If I'm being "helped" I stay back because then I have some control. 

As usual, it's about feeling safe and some common sense, and generally avoiding anyone who tells you there's a proper way of doing things, whose experience of boats may be totally different from yours. 

[rgreg]

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The widely accepted practice you mention is only widely accepted but people who carry out the practice. My observations are that they are in the minority - very long boats excepted of course. Most people with your average 57’ boat don’t ride the top gate. Unless you are incompetent the boat does not get thrust forward thus hitting the gate with ferocity.

 

I have gone up thousands of locks using the technique I advocate and have never rammed the top gate with ferocity. Why is that? Is it just that I am very clever? And ditto my husband Jeff who uses the same technique when he is driving? Or could it be that anyone vaguely competent can do it without losing control and hitting the top gate, with those denying this simply having never tried it?

Like you I've also done thousands of locks, single-handed and crewed and never had issues (and I don't do "faffing" or take risks).  So you do it your way and I'll stick to mine. 

[roland elsdon]

Having come up birmingham and fazeley, saltley and digbeth (ashtead) and then farmers bridge today crt are one paddle or one dropped gate from this route being closed. Many locks on one paddle and gates in distress. There was also nowhere to moor as the whole place is now designated for trip boats that are not running...

Its quite noisy here as well , take it theres something going on at the arena thing?

[nicknorman]

36 minutes ago, rgreg said:

Like you I've also done thousands of locks, single-handed and crewed and never had issues (and I don't do "faffing" or take risks).  So you do it your way and I'll stick to mine. 

Well that’s fine but you will take longer and waste your energy. Personally I take pride in being efficient but I suppose I have to accept that some people enjoy making their lives more complicated than they need to be, making unnecessary work etc.

[Arthur Marshall]

43 minutes ago, rgreg said:

Like you I've also done thousands of locks, single-handed and crewed and never had issues (and I don't do "faffing" or take risks).  So you do it your way and I'll stick to mine. 

Seriously, that's the best answer. Every boat responds differently and every boater feels comfortable in their own way. The trick is to feel, and be, safe. I've seen plenty of singlehanders do it rgreg's way, but it doesn't feel right for me, so I don't. 

[rgreg]

3 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Well that’s fine but you will take longer and waste your energy. Personally I take pride in being efficient but I suppose I have to accept that some people enjoy making their lives more complicated than they need to be, making unnecessary work etc.

..and being condescending no doubt. Like I said, I've done all ways, and still do mix it depending on locks and whether crewed or single-handing. Inefficiency is not in my mindset.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, rgreg said:

..and being condescending no doubt. Like I said, I've done all ways, and still do mix it depending on locks and whether crewed or single-handing. Inefficiency is not in my mindset.

The conversation has previously been about 2+ crew. If one is single handing I can see the point of being up against the gate. Being at the back of the lock requires someone on the boat. I rarely single hand but when I do I either tie the boat back (on locks with not much pull) or ride the gate and open the paddles slowly to avoid a big push back. But that all takes far longer than, with the two of us, staying at the back of the lock and opening both paddles fully, one immediately after the other

[BruceinSanity]

6 minutes ago, rgreg said:

..and being condescending no doubt. Like I said, I've done all ways, and still do mix it depending on locks and whether crewed or single-handing. Inefficiency is not in my mindset.

Don't waste your time arguing, Nick knows best, it's the rest of us who are wrong.

 

Whatever happens at any other lock, if you don't ride the top gate at Common, you'll be flung against it, lost count of the number of times I've seen it happen. Other locks differ, of course.

[Rob-M]

On the T&M locks down from Great Haywood I stay at the back of the lock when coming up and open half a ground paddle each side, wait a few moments whilst the boat settles (doesn't require revving of the engine) and then put the paddles up fully. On the locks with a ground paddle and a gate paddle I find the ground paddle can be opened and then the gate paddle whilst keeping an eye on the water coming in. If I am single handing I put the boat against the top gate with a line round the gate beam to hold the boat forward but still lift ground paddles carefully to not bash the gate.

[nicknorman]

8 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

Don't waste your time arguing, Nick knows best, it's the rest of us who are wrong.

 

Whatever happens at any other lock, if you don't ride the top gate at Common, you'll be flung against it, lost count of the number of times I've seen it happen. Other locks differ, of course.

Do you mean the Common lock between Fradley and Alrewas? I have traversed that many times (it’s only a day’s march from our marina), I have never ridden the top gate, we always open both paddles fully one immediately after the other, and have never come even near to hitting the top gate. So your statement is patently false.

Edited July 11, 2018 by nicknorman

[rgreg]

10 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The conversation has previously been about 2+ crew. If one is single handing I can see the point of being up against the gate. Being at the back of the lock requires someone on the boat. I rarely single hand but when I do I either tie the boat back (on locks with not much pull) or ride the gate and open the paddles slowly to avoid a big push back. But that all takes far longer than, with the two of us, staying at the back of the lock and opening both paddles fully, one immediately after the other

Where did we say the conversation was specifically about 2+ crew? So at least you accept my technique when single-handing. 

[Arthur Marshall]

5 minutes ago, rgreg said:

Where did we say the conversation was specifically about 2+ crew? So at least you accept my technique when single-handing. 

I don't. That's how my mate's boat got sunk at Wardle. 

Edited July 11, 2018 by Arthur Marshall
Ed for spoooling.

[rgreg]

1 minute ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't. 

I know, I was replying to Nick.

[mayalld]

5 hours ago, rgreg said:

Lock 62 is but is 67 not closed until tomorrow? 

Lock 67 is paired

[Allan(nb Albert)]

1 minute ago, mayalld said:

Lock 67 is paired

Quite.

On another matter, Do you intended to chase C&RT up on your FOI request?

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/costs_of_rebranding

[rgreg]

11 minutes ago, mayalld said:

Lock 67 is paired

Ah, couldn't remember; I only did it a few days ago too! Just thrown by the second stoppage notice which referred to both.

[mayalld]

4 minutes ago, Allan(nb Albert) said:

Quite.

On another matter, Do you intended to chase C&RT up on your FOI request?

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/costs_of_rebranding

I will be chasing them up shortly.

 

[rgreg]

32 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I don't. That's how my mate's boat got sunk at Wardle. 

What happened at Wardle? 

[Arthur Marshall]

26 minutes ago, rgreg said:

I know, I was replying to Nick.

I knnow, just thought I'd join in... both ways work so it seems daft to make a big deal out of it. It's just a matter of individual judgement.