Caveat emptor Buyer beware

[b0atman]

Just seen another one on facebook spent all money on a boat and find lots needed to put boat right .This time a valid BSC but seems that past owner has left electrics in a dangerous state so new owner been told lots of rectification work required to pass BSC.

I think this seems iffy from lots of angles

More and more young people are falling in this spiders web .

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

Unfortunately inexperienced boater assume a BSS means the boat is 'safe' and 'seaworthy', unfortunately it means neither.

 

A BSS means that in the examiners interpretation of the BSS requirements it complies with the requirements.

It does not mean that it is safe for the boat owner, as the BSS themselves say :

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

 

No mention of safety to the boat occupants

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Unfortunately inexperienced boater assume a BSS means the boat is 'safe' and 'seaworthy', unfortunately it means neither.

 

A BSS means that in the examiners interpretation of the BSS requirements it complies with the requirements.

It does not mean that it is safe for the boat owner, as the BSS themselves say :

 

The Boat Safety Scheme, or BSS, is a public safety initiative owned by the Canal & River Trust and the Environment Agency. Its purpose is to help minimise the risk of boat fires, explosions, or pollution harming visitors to the inland waterways, the waterways' workforce and any other users.

 

No mention of safety to the boat occupants

Alan I think " and any other users " covers us  idiots who own  boats.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Alan I think " and any other users " covers us  idiots who own  boats.

 

I think it doesn't.

 

Time and time again we are reminded that you are free to self-harm and you cannot have legislation to stop you doing something like 'closing all the ventilation', operating a solid fuel fire with a cracked body, etc etc.

That is why all of these are simply advisories on the BSS.

 

Stuff that can impact on '3rd parties' (fire, gas explosions, pollution,  etc) can be legislated for and mandatory compilance is required for the BSS

 

Have you noticed the little box (top-RH-Corner) of each of the BSS requirements and sub-sections, contains either a letter "A", or letter "R"

These show which items are Advisory, and which are Required

 

You do not fail your BSS examination if you fail to meet any / all of the advisories.

 

Examples :

 

3.9.2
Do all a.c. electrical circuits pass through a consumer unit?    A

 

6.3.1
Is the vessel provided with adequate means of escape?     A

 

8.10.5
Are all solid fuel appliances free of unintended gaps?      A

 

8.10.3
Do all appliance flues and exhausts terminate directly to outside air?     A

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[70liveaboard]

Its pretty much the poor quality of surveyors and the reach of the BSS. The BSS has been outdated for some time, well, since the RCD was introduced for builders. The RCD covered all areas, this is why its better. However, if your not buying a new boat, then really all you rely on is the BSS, so people do need to be aware.

 

That said, how many people do you know that alter, add too, tamper with etc, a new boat after a short period (or any boat new or old for that matter)... Many people.. they can do that with almost impunity, then later sell the boat on, complete with their own inadequate work. That too is a serious problem.

 

[mrsmelly]

1 minute ago, 70liveaboard said:

Its pretty much the poor quality of surveyors and the reach of the BSS. The BSS has been outdated for some time, well, since the RCD was introduced for builders. The RCD covered all areas, this is why its better. However, if your not buying a new boat, then really all you rely on is the BSS, so people do need to be aware.

 

That said, how many people do you know that alter, add too, tamper with etc, a new boat after a short period (or any boat new or old for that matter)... Many people.. they can do that with almost impunity, then later sell the boat on, complete with their own inadequate work. That too is a serious problem.

 

But do we need any of it? RCD BSS etc? It hasnt been around for long and didnt exist when we moved aboard and we didnt die in our thousands on a weekly basis.

[LadyG]

and its not needed for most UK sea boats

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, LadyG said:

and its not needed for most UK sea boats

The RCD is.

[LadyG]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD is.

only recently built yachts, presumably.

[Momac]

The BSS certificate is meaningless in that 5 minutes after the inspection the owner may make changes. 

Why do people not have a pre purchase survey and then complain about faults that could have been discovered ?

 

In any case boats seem prone to faults on a fairly regular basis . If no fault is present one will develop sooner rather than later .

 

2 minutes ago, LadyG said:

only recently built yachts, presumably.

Since about 1998 I believe. 20 years isn't very recent. Even then only applies to new boats .

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

only recently built yachts, presumably.

Depends if you class 1994 as recent.

 

Directive 94/25/EC was the first piece of harmonized legislation in the EU to regulate the boating industry throughout Europe. It was brought in to harmonise the safety requirements related to the design and construction of boats across Europe. The Directive allowed for the creation and emergence of a single market for boats, personal watercraft, marine engines and components in the EU.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

only recently built yachts, presumably.

Not just yachts - all watercraft for recreational use . That includes narrowboats except for the  exception for self build boats .

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Depends if you class 1994 as recent.

In the UK = June 1998 ?

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

 

Since about 1998 I believe. 20 years isn't very recent. Even then only applies to new boats .

Since the amendments (2015 I think) any major work undertaken on the boat that could affect emissions (ie re-engine) or stability (changing ballast, load ratings etc) requires a post construction RCD evaluation.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Not just yachts - all watercraft for recreational use . That includes narrowboats except for the  exception for self build boats .

In the UK = June 1998 ?

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx

.

The directive was passed in 1994 to take effect in 1996 with a 2 year 'transition time' to allow all manufacturers to comply.

[70liveaboard]

22 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

But do we need any of it? RCD BSS etc? It hasnt been around for long and didnt exist when we moved aboard and we didnt die in our thousands on a weekly basis.

Just the RCD really.. Then better trained surveyors that use the RCD as their bible and the authorities to change the cert to periodic RCD, not BSS, tests.

Perhaps rename the RCD, as that really does apply to new boats. 'RCD+' perhaps..

 

But we can never change people from tampering, so how to solve that !

[roland elsdon]

Don't know how we survived without bss, no such thing for our first 3 boats. However my latest boat had a bss on purchase and was lethal when I bought it. Electrics, heating, gas all well illegal. In spite of that it was insurable with some hull work. I knew how bad it was, disconnected the gas, decommissioned the range, and sorted out the battery instal before using it. Someone else might have bought it with the bss thought it was safe and used it. They got the bss before fitting the extension cabin out, modding the electrics and 'fitting ' gas. 

 

[Momac]

41 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

 They got the bss before fitting the extension cabin out, modding the electrics and 'fitting ' gas. 

 

Therefore a fresh BSS test should have been done as the previous test was invalidated by the modifications to fit a gas system where no  previous  system was present.

 

A good surveyor should notice a defective gas installation  or defective electrics if they are reasonably visible / accessible. 

My present boat was not BSS compliant when surveyed despite having 18 months of the 4 year BSS remaining.  But the problems were largely attributable to dud batteries and not due to defective work. The cost of the survey was justifiable as it certainly saved me being significantly out of pocket . The boat was presented in clean condition but defects due to lack of use had developed.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Therefore a fresh BSS test should have been done as the previous test was invalidated by the modifications to fit a gas system where no  previous  system was present.

 

In 2013 the T&Cs of the BSS were revised to include a paragraph revealing how a BSS certificate could be revoked, then having a boat without a BSS means that your licence is also revoked, and should 'the worse happen' it may be difficult to make a claim on your insurance knowing that your boat was not 'properly maintained'.

 

Revised terms

 

The owner’s on-going responsibility: it is crucial to maintain the vessel in good condition in accordance with the safety requirements; and, any other licensing, registration or mooring conditions of the relevant navigation or harbour authority. The validity of a BSS pass result may be affected and can be cancelled if the vessel is not properly maintained; and/or non-compliant alterations are made....

 

The above text in full context is here :

 

https://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/arranging-the-examination/bss-certification-what-it-is-what-it-is-not/

Edited July 3, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

3 hours ago, b0atman said:

This time a valid BSC but seems that past owner has left electrics in a dangerous state so new owner been told lots of rectification work required to pass BSC.

 

In whose opinion?

[matty40s]

3 hours ago, b0atman said:

Just seen another one on facebook spent all money on a boat and find lots needed to put boat right .This time a valid BSC but seems that past owner has left electrics in a dangerous state so new owner been told lots of rectification work required to pass BSC.

I think this seems iffy from lots of angles

More and more young people are falling in this spiders web .

 

 

If it's got a valid bsc then if nothings changed since test then nothings likely to fail next BSC unless the electrics have been changed.

[ditchcrawler]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

In whose opinion?

If its the thread I am thinking of there have been no details of whats wrong or how they know they are wrong

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, matty40s said:

If it's got a valid bsc then if nothings changed, and, you use the same examiner then nothings likely to fail the next BSC …………………….

A small amendment.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A small amendment.

 

Totally agree. 

 

Give the same moody boat to three examiners and I predict three different lists of fail points.

[b0atman]

I am not concerned about the BSC that was as an example  but the fact that too many buyers are going into boating with eyes closed .They seem to give no thought to boats and boating.All money is spent on purchase with nothing left over for problems.

[alan_fincher]

8 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Totally agree. 

 

Give the same moody boat to three examiners and I predict three different lists of fail points.

 

I gave my "moody" boat to one examiner, wsho actually proved to be the most thorough I have ever used.

 

He passed it!