Lack of platforms at locks

[mayalld]

4 hours ago, Athy said:

You have raised, en passant, a point which affects most of us. What about the crew of a different boat? By this I mean, when a boat arrives at a lock and there's already one going through, or there is a queue to go through it, a crew member from the newly-arrived boat goes to help with operating the paddles and gates. Most of us do it, and mostmof us don't think much of a boat crew who don't join in. It speeds locking and breeds camaraderie. It is a Good Thing.

No it isn't.

 

The random non-boater is doing it because they want to.

 

The other boater is doing it because they want to speed your passage, so that they get through sooner.

 

Their motives are usually about helping themselves, rather than you.

 

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, Athy said:

The mind boggles; they threw a pepper mill at your boat and it chipped the paint?

Lucky you were already a seasoned boater.

 

Don't rub salt into into his wounds.

[Athy]

5 minutes ago, mayalld said:

No it isn't.

 

The random non-boater is doing it because they want to.

 

The other boater is doing it because they want to speed your passage, so that they get through sooner.

 

Their motives are usually about helping themselves, rather than you.

 

 

Cor, wotta cynic!

I'd say that it's about everyone helping each other (and, as a by-product, helping themselves too).

So, would such people, regardless of their motives, be legally liable if there were an accident? The boater in the lock hasn't asked them to stay away and therefore, by implication, he's accepted their help.

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Don't rub salt into into his wounds.

Naughty! You're a sinna mon, so you are.

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Athy said:

 

Naughty! You're a sinna mon, so you are.

 

Blimey that was quick. Keen as mustard, you!

[Athy]

I was just keeping you at bay.

[MtB]

Just now, Athy said:

I was just keeping you at bay.

 

Very sage.

[frahkn]

20 hours ago, Tacet said:

Mostly, they do.  Gates and paddles at both ends - and a tendency to rise and fall.

 

That the boat steerer has a real say in the operation of a lock is clearly reasonable.  But it is less reasonable where the steerer is dawdling along - causing long delays due to inefficient working.

 

I appreciate one person's dawdling is another person's safe working, but if you're holding people up and not willing to accept help (or loose the second boat by), it is less reasonable.  We followed a pair of boats up the Shroppie last week and whilst they had the road, at every lock we were catching them before they had even entered the chamber.  With a crew of maybe 10-12, there was often not a windlass in sight, and if there was a windlass, it was nowhere near a paddle at the right time.  To be fair, there was no objection voiced to being assisted.

 

 

That is an important point, I dawdle along the canal (though I am happy to facilitate anyone faster to pass me) but I like to work locks efficiently with no wasted effort. Even when I'm not involved (perhaps have moored up for the day) I still get irrationally irritated by crews who are inefficient at locks.

 

That said, often 'help' does not make me quicker in locks and I imagine Mayalld would say the same. Generally I accept help, mainly because it would be rude not to.

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, Horace42 said:

Rephrased - Boater's case: 

"I am a fully trained, fully competent and experience boater, and was fully in control of my boat and it sank entirely due to a mistake made by an untrained, incompetent helper who opened a paddle thinking I had given approval. But as I had not given approval, and not expecting the paddle to be opened, the water rushed in totally unseen by me, and without my knowledge, to the extent the water level in the lock rose totally unnoticed by me, and the incompetent helper not trained in recognizing boats in trouble and thus failing to warn me that my boat was in danger of sinking. The very first  indication to me that something was wrong, and thus outside my control,  was when I was up to my ankles in water - by then it was too late - and my boat just sank. We experienced boaters need protection from untrained lockies."

 

 

Pure scaremongering fiction.

[MtB]

47 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Pure scaremongering fiction.

 

I agree.

 

Anyone who doesn't notice their boat is sinking until they are up to their ankles in water is paying even less attention than that poor bloke on the bank with a windlass they are trying to blame.

[zenataomm]

14 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 

 

The bottom line is that your post is entirely fantasy and as such, not very nice.

Yet in this litigious world, sadly quite feasible.

[nicknorman]

7 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Yet in this litigious world, sadly quite feasible.

It is feasible that tonight you will be beamed into orbit by aliens in order to have your nether regions probed. But rather unlikely.

[zenataomm]

14 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

Don't share a lock, it could be you.

Firstly I don't share narrow locks, and secondly the scenario you condemn was not my doing. 

It was similar to one I was called to act as the witness to in the 80s on The Shroppie.

 

The owner bringing the action wasn't 100% successful, mainly due to my being unable to totally corroborate his version.  However a very stressful year was spent by all concerned waiting for it be heard.  The Hire co. concerned to this day still advise in their literature that the hirers don't operate others' locks.

 

I merely don't want anyone else to go through such stress and anxiety

5 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It is feasible that tonight you will be beamed into orbit by aliens in order to have your nether regions probed. But rather unlikely.

The dog star is particularly beautiful tonight

[zenataomm]

14 hours ago, nicknorman said:

 Folk who listen will no doubt become even more risk averse

I agree.

Being risk averse is a weakness and "the meek shall inhibit The Earth", however the difference between being too scared to do anything and being aware is having an informed understanding.

 

Simply because it's not happened to you, doesn't mean it never will nor never has done to someone.  Even when it appears very little resulted in the end, living through over a year with the stress and anxiety of the trauma and accusation. Being reminded by the others' lawyers in writing that you have a duty to tell the truth and that the penalties for lying in court and/or perjury/contempt of court are likely to be a prison sentence are far from pleasant nor easily forgotten.

 

[Athy]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree.

 

Anyone who doesn't notice their boat is sinking until they are up to their ankles in water is paying even less attention than that poor bloke on the bank with a windlass they are trying to blame.

...and almost certainly is not a "fully competent, experienced boater".

[mayalld]

5 hours ago, Athy said:

Cor, wotta cynic!

I'd say that it's about everyone helping each other (and, as a by-product, helping themselves too).

 

I am merely a realist.

 

I cannot recall a helper whose purpose was to make my life easier. I can recall plenty who were all about shaving 10 seconds off my lock passage for their own benefit (which is pointless, because my own efficiencies when left alone make up more time than that).

 

I can well recall the time coming up the Cheshire Locks, back when I didn't politely refuse ALL offers of help;

 

"Just half a paddle at first, these locks have a strong draw"

 

The paddle was then thrown up with speed, and comments about "we haven't got all week"

[Athy]

17 minutes ago, mayalld said:

I am merely a realist.

 

I cannot recall a helper whose purpose was to make my life easier.

That's a shame. There are plenty about.

[GuyBarry]

6 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I agree.

 

Anyone who doesn't notice their boat is sinking until they are up to their ankles in water is paying even less attention than that poor bloke on the bank with a windlass they are trying to blame.

I think horace42's post was intended as satire.

[GuyBarry]

What I find interesting about this discussion is that the errors an "inexperienced lockie" might make pale into insignificance beyond the errors made by boaters themselves.  These are all things I've witnessed or tried to prevent:

 

Opening the paddles at both ends at once

Coming up into the lock correctly, then going back and re-opening the paddles at the lower end

Trying to come through on one gate at the wrong angle and hitting the side of the gate

Whacking the paddles up at the lower end too fast and washing the boat out

Not securing the boat in the lock, then whacking the paddles up at the top end and causing the boat to hit the sides of the lock

Trying to wind the paddle the wrong way (apparently K & A paddles work differently from most other canals)

Not pulling the ratchet out when trying to wind the paddle down

Not noticing that someone has left the upper gate paddles open and opening the lower paddles

Trying to force the gate open when it's obviously nowhere near ready

 

I could go on and on.  Surely inexperienced boaters are a far greater danger than inexperienced lockies?

Edited July 6, 2018 by GuyBarry

[artleknock]

2 hours ago, Athy said:

That's a shame. There are plenty about.

That's my (limited) experiance. At no time has anyone waded in and 'helped', all have asked if we would like a hand, and what could they do. Even more experianced boaters have worked with me as a team and not taken over. Though I did meet on boater that stuck his nose in the air and said, "I would NEVER share a lock with a hire boat". Reminded me of a poster on here

[MtB]

49 minutes ago, GuyBarry said:

I could go on and on.  Surely inexperienced boaters are a far greater danger than inexperienced lockies?

 

Agreed, but bear in mind the inexperienced boater is putting their own boat at risk, while the random helper-lockie is risking a boat belonging to someone else. Usually worth a five figure sum and occasionally six figures, which is why some of us get a bit precious about who 'helps' us through a lock. 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
Improve clarity

[GuyBarry]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Agreed, but bear in mind the inexperienced boater is putting their own boat at risk, while the random helper-lockie is risking a boat belonging to someone else.

 

 

Rather a lot of the inexperienced boaters are risking a boat belonging to someone else - namely the hire company.

[MtB]

Just now, GuyBarry said:

Rather a lot of the inexperienced boaters are risking a boat belonging to someone else - namely the hire company.

 

The hire company does not live in the boat. 

 

Do you own a house? How would you feel if some random person who may or may not sink it, wanted to 'help' you take it through a lock?

[GuyBarry]

Most boaters I encounter don't live in their boats, even if they own them.  I do meet a few people who live on the boat but they're definitely in a minority on the river.  (It may be different on the canal.)

 

I rent a flat, incidentally.

Edited July 6, 2018 by GuyBarry

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, GuyBarry said:

Most boaters I encounter don't live in their boats, even if they own them.  I do meet a few people who live on the boat but they're definitely in a minority on the river.  (It may be different on the canal.)

 

I rent a flat, incidentally.

Guy, I appreciate what you are doing. We are usually 2 up, so extra hands to set locks ahead of us or to close gates behind us are very welcome. We did the Hatton in 2 1/2 hours last week with a volockie setting all the locks for us rather than the 3 1/2 hours  it normally takes and saved me climbing on the roof at each lock.

Learn from the comments here and go on a training course as soon as you can. You will learn something and protect yourself. Don't get discouraged.

[nicknorman]

6 hours ago, mayalld said:

I am merely a realist.

 

I cannot recall a helper whose purpose was to make my life easier. I can recall plenty who were all about shaving 10 seconds off my lock passage for their own benefit (which is pointless, because my own efficiencies when left alone make up more time than that).

 

I can well recall the time coming up the Cheshire Locks, back when I didn't politely refuse ALL offers of help;

 

"Just half a paddle at first, these locks have a strong draw"

 

The paddle was then thrown up with speed, and comments about "we haven't got all week"

We always wind both paddles fully up on the Cheshire locks (by which I mean one after the other in the time it takes to cross the gate). Why is it we are able to get on with it, using full paddle, whilst you dawdle, only capable of coping with 1/2 paddle? I would recommend some additional training in boat handling in locks, so you become competent to use the paddles as they were intended.