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Sewage


Su Jonesy

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1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I have a sea toilet (actually two) and I am not on, or from the Lancaster, Liverpool or Douglas

Yes, but yours is a sea going boat. Are the ones coming from the lancaster (which have probably gone over the Ribble link the other way earlier) likely to be sea going boats?

haggis

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29 minutes ago, Su Jonesy said:

The bubbly frothy brown stuff is sewage. talking to my neighbour about it He has also noticed it more when boats come over from the Lancaster canal. apparently quite a few boats have a sea toilet. As Burscough is a  main thoroughfare from Lancaster to Liverpool. Via Tarlton and the Douglas. Makes you think. 

The reason Aguilla has seen few boats about is because of the breach at Melling. Not so much traffic going into the Pool.

Where EXACTLY is this gunge supposed to be ???  Didn't see anything matching your description between Parbold and Great Score today, either going or coming back.

 

"Not so much traffic going into the Pool." I wouldn't have thought there would be any, unless the boats are on wheels!

6 minutes ago, Su Jonesy said:

are you on the Rose of Parbold?

 

Yes, and don't blame us for it. We have our own pump-out facility at our mooring.

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9 minutes ago, haggis said:

Yes, but yours is a sea going boat. Are the ones coming from the lancaster (which have probably gone over the Ribble link the other way earlier) likely to be sea going boats?

haggis

Boat 1) I'm on the River Trent with the Cruiser (with 2x Sea Toilets). Quite legal and acceptable to 'flush' directly into the River.

Boat 2) The Big-Cat (with 2x sea Toilets) has now moved down from Hull to Plymouth

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1 hour ago, Su Jonesy said:

The bubbly frothy brown stuff is sewage. talking to my neighbour about it He has also noticed it more when boats come over from the Lancaster canal. apparently quite a few boats have a sea toilet. As Burscough is a  main thoroughfare from Lancaster to Liverpool. Via Tarlton and the Douglas. Makes you think. 

The reason Aguilla has seen few boats about is because of the breach at Melling. Not so much traffic going into the Pool.

 

Oh heck, I spend a lot of my life drinking the bubbly frothy brown stuff, I always thought it was beer.

 

So all these boats on the Lancaster CANAL (with an emphasis on canal) that are passing, are they narrowboats or plastic cruisers??? I suspect mostly narrowboats, I suspect some have pumpouts, but I doubt many have sea toilets. Do they spend months with their legs crossed and buttocks clenched just so that they can use the toilet on the odd occasion that they do the Ribble link?  And why, having crossed the Ribble link with a rare chance to have a good guilt free crap do they not do it but instead decide to hang on till they got to Burscough? And a Sea toilet is not like emptying a pumpout.

 

I think the brown rotting vegetation theory is the more plausible.

 

...............Dave

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7 minutes ago, bozlite said:

No - not permissible on the Trent (possibly below Gainsborough?)

Can you please provide the evidence / legislation etc that forbids it ?

I have searched for years to find it and prove to those that pump-out into the River that they should not.

I have holding tanks so its not a problem to switch the diverter on if it is proven to be forbidden.

 

Thanks in advance.

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We were moored in Kintbury on the K&A for a little period earlier this year. I was convinced someone had 'pumped out' or 'emptied' their loos. All the evidence was there except for deposits of paper remains and lumps of...........the frothy stuff was evident. Seems I was very much mistaken. Think it was probably trapped rotted vegitation that had escaped with water flows.

Incidentially, we moored in Burscough area over Christmas New Year 16/17. Saw no funny goings on.

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12 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Can you please provide the evidence / legislation etc that forbids it ?

I have searched for years to find it and prove to those that pump-out into the River that they should not.

I have holding tanks so its not a problem to switch the diverter on if it is proven to be forbidden.

 

Thanks in advance.

General Canal Bye-law 40 prohibits throwing or discharging anything into a canal (and canal is defined as any inland waterway under the control of the BWB) so I think that would cover it.

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7 minutes ago, bozlite said:

General Canal Bye-law 40 prohibits throwing or discharging anything into a canal (and canal is defined as any inland waterway under the control of the BWB) so I think that would cover it.

I can see why you might think that, but as those bye-laws hail from long before sea toilets were banned from canal boats in general, I can only assume that BW took the view that macerated sewage did not fall within the bounds of bye-law 40.

 

When I worked at a hire base on the GU in 1971, sea toilets were the norm on canals, (though a bucket and chucket was added if the boat was expected to go on the Thames).  Those bye-laws are from 1965, I think.

Edited by alan_fincher
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26 minutes ago, bozlite said:

General Canal Bye-law 40 prohibits throwing or discharging anything into a canal (and canal is defined as any inland waterway under the control of the BWB) so I think that would cover it.

I disagree that it applies to black-water discharges, if it did, it would equally apply to grey-water so be careful what you wish for.

 

No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any
animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other
material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as
to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means,
or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

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41 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I disagree that it applies to black-water discharges, if it did, it would equally apply to grey-water so be careful what you wish for.

 

No person shall throw or discharge into or on to any canal any
animal (whether alive or dead) or any rubbish, stones or other
material of any kind whatsoever or deposit such materials so as
to be washed or carried into any canal by floods or other means,
or in any wise cause obstruction in any canal.

I’m not sure what basis there is for saying it doesn’t apply to black water - as you helpfully quoted, it applies to “material of any kind whatsoever”. On that reading, yes, it would apply to grey water, too, but CRT provide guidance on what they will allow to be discharged into the canal, so that’s unlikely ever to be an issue.

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16 hours ago, haggis said:

It is being narrowed down a bit now though from just passing boats to passing boats which have come from the Lancaster. I wonder why boats on the Lancaster have sea toilets? That's a puzzling one but I am sure we will hear the answer soon.

Another puzzle is why boats from the Lancaster wait till Burscough to empty their sea toilets when they have just come over a couple of rivers.

haggis

And tidal ones at that. 

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1 hour ago, bozlite said:

I’m not sure what basis there is for saying it doesn’t apply to black water - as you helpfully quoted, it applies to “material of any kind whatsoever”. On that reading, yes, it would apply to grey water, too, but CRT provide guidance on what they will allow to be discharged into the canal, so that’s unlikely ever to be an issue.

The preamble is all leading towards the final seven words which is the basis of the Bye-Law

 

"...any wise cause obstruction in any canal". 

 

This Bye-Law is referring to wood, bricks, rubbish, TV's, road-Cones etc, not liquid.

Sewage would not cause an obstruction in the canal (maybe your alimentary canal ?)

 

C&RT are not allowed to override the law when it is 'convenient' - they do not have the power to say 'ignore Bye-Law 40 for discharging grey water, but do not ignore it for Black-Water"

 

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36 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The preamble is all leading towards the final seven words which is the basis of the Bye-Law

 

"...any wise cause obstruction in any canal". 

 

This Bye-Law is referring to wood, bricks, rubbish, TV's, road-Cones etc, not liquid.

Sewage would not cause an obstruction in the canal (maybe your alimentary canal ?)

 

C&RT are not allowed to override the law when it is 'convenient' - they do not have the power to say 'ignore Bye-Law 40 for discharging grey water, but do not ignore it for Black-Water"

 

Well, that’s an argument, I suppose. It does leave us with no prohibition on discharging sewage anywhere on CRT waters, though, doesn’t it? Your argument earlier appeared to suggest that there was such a prohibition, but that it didn’t apply to the Trent - or did I misunderstand you?

 

On the second point, CRT are within their rights to prioritise certain prosecutions over others - they’re not obliged to prosecute every violation brought to their attention, and are entitled to concentrate resources on the more serious issues. But it’s a moot point anyway, as they very rarely bring any prosecutions.

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3 hours ago, bozlite said:

I’m not sure what basis there is for saying it doesn’t apply to black water - as you helpfully quoted, it applies to “material of any kind whatsoever”. On that reading, yes, it would apply to grey water, too, but CRT provide guidance on what they will allow to be discharged into the canal, so that’s unlikely ever to be an issue.

Yet ...

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7 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Yet ...

Well, I take your point! Certainly, grey water discharge is already illegal in many countries. However, if we think Alan de Enfield’s reading of bye-law 40 is correct, it’s currently fine (legally) to pump anything into a canal or river so long as it doesn’t cause an obstruction. I’m not aware that it’s really much of a problem, which must mean that most people act decently without needing the nudge of a law to make them do so - and that’s a good thing, of course.

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1 hour ago, bozlite said:

Well, I take your point! Certainly, grey water discharge is already illegal in many countries. However, if we think Alan de Enfield’s reading of bye-law 40 is correct, it’s currently fine (legally) to pump anything into a canal or river so long as it doesn’t cause an obstruction. I’m not aware that it’s really much of a problem, which must mean that most people act decently without needing the nudge of a law to make them do so - and that’s a good thing, of course.

Whilst an individual can legally do anything that it is not specifically illegal to do, it is the reverse for a company. A company can only do what it is authorised to do.

 

Attorney-General v. Great Eastern Railway Co. (1880) 5 App.Cas. 473, Lord Blackburn said, at p. 481: 'where there is an Act of Parliament creating a corporation for a particular purpose, and giving it powers for that particular purpose, what it does not expressly or impliedly authorise is to be taken to be prohibited; ...' [my emphasis]

This was cited with approval by the same House in the 1991 judgment in McCarthy & Stone v Richmond LBC, with all 5 Law Lords in unanimous agreement on the point.

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There must be exceptions to the rule. Following the Boxing Day 2015 floods in the Calder valley I did some research for a report which led to the flood prevention strategy for the boat club. One of those contacted was the EA who have several water treatment works just upstream. I was told that when flood reaches a set level, raw sewage is discharged into the River Calder.

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