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What will happen to the Flapper in 2019


Heartland

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The Canalside public house in Birmingham known now as the Flapper, a popular music venue, has banners up stating that it is not closing, but the lease will end next year.

 

Flapper.jpg

Edited by Heartland
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I think the outlook is not good. The "businessman" owner will have have learned some lessons from this so will revise his high rise housing plans so that they are more likely to succeed next time. The customers probably won't have the energy to mount such a good campaign next time, the newspapers will be less interested because it won't be "new" news, and the customers and landlord won't be investing much energy (or money) in the place because they know it most likely has no future. Only option is for the "community" to buy the place but because it is likely worth much much more as high rise flats than a pub then this is likely not viable.

 

If anybody here has a bit of cash to spare, and a social conscience, then the local (and not so local) community are urgently trying to buy the Barge Inn at Honeystreet (K&A)  from the current owner who is trying to turn it into a nice big house for himself.

 

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/savethefamousbargeinnhoneystreet

 

If this bid fails then a truly historic and iconic canalside pub, and major canal landmark, will become a private residence. This will likely also lead to the loss of the visitor moorings which are amongst the most spectacular on the canal system. The current owner has already tried to change the public right of way which gives access to these moorings.

 

.........Dave

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Heartland said:

The Canalside public house in Birmingham known now as the Flapper, a popular music venue, has banners up stating that it is not closing, but the lease will end next year.

 

Flapper.jpg

 

From thr Flapper Facebook page on 20th June:

 

Official statement from The Flapper Ltd.

We have today accepted a twelve-month lease extension from our landlord, Baskerville Wharf.
Please see below for Baskerville Wharf's official statement.

"Baskerville Wharf, the owners of The Flapper public house, have offered The Flapper Ltd business an extension of 12 months whilst we continue our discussions with Birmingham City Council. Plans were submitted in November 2017 for the sites redevelopment and whilst we have withdrawn the current application, we are considering the submission of revised proposals later in 2018. The Flapper Ltd have accepted our offer and will now remain open for business until 30th June 2019."

All 'Celebration Of The Flapper' events will continue to take place - We have a few details to sort through regarding the 'Final Weekend Fri 29th/Sat 30th June' so please keep an eye on the Facebook event page for further information; https://www.facebook.com/events/231696344050642/

Please help us spread the word that The Flapper is staying open, we'll be getting our heads down booking in some great shows and organising some amazing events for next 12 months.

Edited by Tim Lewis
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9 hours ago, dmr said:

I think the outlook is not good. The "businessman" owner will have have learned some lessons from this so will revise his high rise housing plans so that they are more likely to succeed next time. The customers probably won't have the energy to mount such a good campaign next time, the newspapers will be less interested because it won't be "new" news, and the customers and landlord won't be investing much energy (or money) in the place because they know it most likely has no future. Only option is for the "community" to buy the place but because it is likely worth much much more as high rise flats than a pub then this is likely not viable.

 

If anybody here has a bit of cash to spare, and a social conscience, then the local (and not so local) community are urgently trying to buy the Barge Inn at Honeystreet (K&A)  from the current owner who is trying to turn it into a nice big house for himself.

 

https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/savethefamousbargeinnhoneystreet

 

If this bid fails then a truly historic and iconic canalside pub, and major canal landmark, will become a private residence. This will likely also lead to the loss of the visitor moorings which are amongst the most spectacular on the canal system. The current owner has already tried to change the public right of way which gives access to these moorings.

 

.........Dave

 

 

 

The barge was bought a few years ago,by the community and a huge grant from the lottery fund,but I seem to remember it went belly up with huge debts after a while.

Eta http://www.marlboroughnewsonline.co.uk/news/news-in-brief/1168-lottery-backed-barge-inn-community-project-collapses-in-debt

Edited by Peter Reed
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9 hours ago, Peter Reed said:

The barge was bought a few years ago,by the community and a huge grant from the lottery fund,but I seem to remember it went belly up with huge debts after a while.

Eta http://www.marlboroughnewsonline.co.uk/news/news-in-brief/1168-lottery-backed-barge-inn-community-project-collapses-in-debt

I believe that a "community", consisting mostly of well to do people and "businessmen" from the local villages purchased only the lease with the lottery grant. Sadly another businessman, a Mr MvIvor, purchased the pub itself and controlled what went on, including a strong beer tie to his "virtual" brewery. He obtained grants to build that rather expensive extension to replace the old barn that fell down one night. The community project then failed because these various businessmen "forgot" to pay VAT. Its hard to believe that businessmen have never heard of VAT.

 

Mr McIvor also purchased another popular "boaters" pub, the CrossKeys in Bedwyn, now also closed and on the route of turning into a nice big house. The community are also trying to rescue that one but McIvor has recently sold it to himself (via his various companies) with a covenant that it must never be a pub again. You get the idea?????

 

Some people pressed the Lottery to request Mr MvIvor give the Barge money back but they really didn't want the bad publicity.

 

The current well thought out bid is to buy the freehold (the building), run the pub as a freehouse, and not have any property developer types involved.

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

The current well thought out bid is to buy the freehold (the building), run the pub as a freehouse, and not have any property developer types involved.

 

 

Oh bugger. Does that mean I'll not be allowed to invest in the project? 

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1 hour ago, dmr said:

I believe that a "community", consisting mostly of well to do people and "businessmen" from the local villages purchased only the lease with the lottery grant. Sadly another businessman, a Mr MvIvor, purchased the pub itself and controlled what went on, including a strong beer tie to his "virtual" brewery. He obtained grants to build that rather expensive extension to replace the old barn that fell down one night. The community project then failed because these various businessmen "forgot" to pay VAT. Its hard to believe that businessmen have never heard of VAT.

 

Mr McIvor also purchased another popular "boaters" pub, the CrossKeys in Bedwyn, now also closed and on the route of turning into a nice big house. The community are also trying to rescue that one but McIvor has recently sold it to himself (via his various companies) with a covenant that it must never be a pub again. You get the idea?????

 

Some people pressed the Lottery to request Mr MvIvor give the Barge money back but they really didn't want the bad publicity.

 

The current well thought out bid is to buy the freehold (the building), run the pub as a freehouse, and not have any property developer types involved.

 

...............Dave

I checked the fund raising page out for this property whilst moored there last week. I have used the pub like others over the past thirty years when passing. The real problem is the location is awful. Ok yes for a few sunny days each year its reasonably frequented well on saturday and sunday anyway but during our six month winter people simply evaporate and its left to  the three local villagers supping halves of bitter to pay the huge overheads and wages never mind profit!! hence the fund raising simply isnt going to happen. How many pubs has this happened to over the last thirty years countrywide? hundreds or more likely thousands. For these pubs to survive peoples lifestyles have to revert back to what they were years ago when many people were pub goers but this simply is no longer the case. My son ran a huge pub in the New Forest for ten years  taking huge money all summer but dropped eighty per cent in the winter, he now runs a megga busy pub in a small town he finds easier due to footfall. I had similar problems in village pubs that I ran/owned. Its not roses round the door its very far from it.

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19 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

I checked the fund raising page out for this property whilst moored there last week. I have used the pub like others over the past thirty years when passing. The real problem is the location is awful. Ok yes for a few sunny days each year its reasonably frequented well on saturday and sunday anyway but during our six month winter people simply evaporate and its left to  the three local villagers supping halves of bitter to pay the huge overheads and wages never mind profit!! hence the fund raising simply isnt going to happen. How many pubs has this happened to over the last thirty years countrywide? hundreds or more likely thousands. For these pubs to survive peoples lifestyles have to revert back to what they were years ago when many people were pub goers but this simply is no longer the case. My son ran a huge pub in the New Forest for ten years  taking huge money all summer but dropped eighty per cent in the winter, he now runs a megga busy pub in a small town he finds easier due to footfall. I had similar problems in village pubs that I ran/owned. Its not roses round the door its very far from it.

I hope they raise the funding but its a tall order. Yes, in the winter it can be 3 or 4 locals drinking in the evening, but quite a few often pop in for an early evening drink. The secret weapon at the Barge is the music at weekends, with the right band it can be packed and take enough money to see it through the week. Swindon is not that far away and a lot of people are willing to travel to see a band and generally enjoy the special atmosphere that the Barge used to possess. The Barge did have quite a fanatical national and international following. In summer the moorings were full, plus all the 14 day moorings for several hundred yards, and at weekends the campsite could be packed. There was also a very busy Sunday Lunch trade at one time. The last proper tenants did make money, I think quite decent money despite the beer tie. They left suddenly, don't know what happened, but I guess the owner got rid of them because he needed his serial tenants to fail. The current Barge project is heavily based on a successful community buy out of a pub in Bath.

 

..............Dave

 

 

Edited by dmr
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35 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Oh bugger. Does that mean I'll not be allowed to invest in the project? 

Stick some money in now. Its going too slow and the fear is that everybody is holding back to see if its going to work, a self full filling recipe for failure. They hope to give about 3% return on investment which fits in pretty well with some of our "buy a pub" conversations. Trouble is they plan to pay the dividend in beer so if you stick in £100k you will need to drink £3000 worth of beer every year, or do a lot of eating. I can help with the beer.

 

...............Dave

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19 minutes ago, dmr said:

Stick some money in now. Its going too slow and the fear is that everybody is holding back to see if its going to work, a self full filling recipe for failure. They hope to give about 3% return on investment which fits in pretty well with some of our "buy a pub" conversations. Trouble is they plan to pay the dividend in beer so if you stick in £100k you will need to drink £3000 worth of beer every year, or do a lot of eating. I can help with the beer.

 

...............Dave

 

 

 

"They hope to give about 3% return on investment".

 

And there lies the reason it will fail. That just isn't a good enough proposal for anyone to stick in anything more than beer money, sadly. And that includes me. 3% is a wafer thin return given the massive risk to one's capital. And looking at the the projected P&L accounts the same applies. £25k-£50k profit forecast on a capital employed of £1m ISTR. That's bonkers! Given all P&L forecasts need discounting to strip out the optimism, I really can't see this project staying aloft, assuming it even gets off the ground. 

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59 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

 

"They hope to give about 3% return on investment".

 

And there lies the reason it will fail. That just isn't a good enough proposal for anyone to stick in anything more than beer money, sadly. And that includes me. 3% is a wafer thin return given the massive risk to one's capital. And looking at the the projected P&L accounts the same applies. £25k-£50k profit forecast on a capital employed of £1m ISTR. That's bonkers! Given all P&L forecasts need discounting to strip out the optimism, I really can't see this project staying aloft, assuming it even gets off the ground. 

The plan to put in a proper tenant/manager to run the place is encouraging, I would think a rent of about £50,000 a year would be reasonable, so 3% profit and 2% for repairs.

A manager would make sense, if its run by the community it will end up with 1000 "owners" all wanting free drinks and a long term spot in the car park for a liveaboard truck!. It may will depend upon a few wealthy people putting in money and not seeking a huge return as top priority. I think it can't be run on a total investment and guaranteed return basis as a priority must be stopping the businessmen and property developer types from getting control of it again. I believe the Bell in Bath did have one very wealthy supporter, and the Barge does have a wide range of customers so maybe this will include some very wealthy and generous ones.

 

............Dave

actually saving old canalside pubs is probably much like saving vintage engines and wooden narrowboats, a lot of feelgood factor and satisfaction but not very profitable.

 

............Dave

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There are already a few high rise flats by the Crescent and just by the Flapper is Kingston Row with the heritage buildings there. Putting more private accommodation here may well make this mooring spot unattractive to boaters. Sad if it happens...

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2 hours ago, Heartland said:

There are already a few high rise flats by the Crescent and just by the Flapper is Kingston Row with the heritage buildings there. Putting more private accommodation here may well make this mooring spot unattractive to boaters. Sad if it happens...

Its also a very unique canalside pub and home to a unique community of brummie heavy metal fans.  I believe CaRT did object but would likely not object to a "lower rise" development. I suspect any development would be the end of general mooring in that basin, with possibly just a few long term moorings with electrical hookup.

 

I always think that the "North Basin" in Chester is such a good example of what happens when a small basin is surrounded by high rise properties, and they are only 4 or 5 floors.

 

...............Dave

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1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

The best way to protect any of these pubs is to apply for them to be an Asset of Community Value.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_of_community_value

I believe this only gives very limited protection and will be no real problem to a half determined property developer.

 

The biggest factor is that if the owner decides to sell he must allow the "community" 6 months to raise the cash to buy it themselves. I think the catch here is that the owner is under no obligation to accept this offer. 6 months is not long when developers are willing to take several years over a pub destruction.

 

Community Asset may give the council some additional powers to refuse a change of use to housing, but change of use to other commercial and then on to housing a couple of years later appears to be the way round this.  I mentioned the Bedwyn pub in a previous post, this was turned into an "Art Gallery" that almost never opened as part of the pub destruction process.  Its pleasing to note that a Northern council recently turned down a conversion to housing plan because the pub was viable but had been deliberately run down. I think its all down to the local councils really and they are under great pressure to build more houses and also have limited funding, so if a developer appeals against a refusal they likely don't have the resources to fight their case.

 

.............Dave

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31 minutes ago, dmr said:

I believe this only gives very limited protection and will be no real problem to a half determined property developer.

 

The biggest factor is that if the owner decides to sell he must allow the "community" 6 months to raise the cash to buy it themselves. I think the catch here is that the owner is under no obligation to accept this offer. 6 months is not long when developers are willing to take several years over a pub destruction.

 

Community Asset may give the council some additional powers to refuse a change of use to housing, but change of use to other commercial and then on to housing a couple of years later appears to be the way round this.  I mentioned the Bedwyn pub in a previous post, this was turned into an "Art Gallery" that almost never opened as part of the pub destruction process.  Its pleasing to note that a Northern council recently turned down a conversion to housing plan because the pub was viable but had been deliberately run down. I think its all down to the local councils really and they are under great pressure to build more houses and also have limited funding, so if a developer appeals against a refusal they likely don't have the resources to fight their case.

 

.............Dave

It gives the planning department the authority to refuse any planning application which would change it.

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3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

It gives the planning department the authority to refuse any planning application which would change it.

I mentioned the Barge Inn in earlier posts. The owner here just opened it less and less, made the customers very un-welcome and treated it like his private house, indeed he even informed some customers that they were in his house. If you can keep this up for long enough then all the customers move on and find somewhere else to drink so there is no longer a community left for the community asset. Saving pubs appears to be very difficult. Will the planning people refuse an application to convert a pub that has no customers?   Then there is always the accidental fire, especially useful if the pub has a wonderful interior!

 

................Dave

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3 hours ago, dmr said:

The biggest factor is that if the owner decides to sell he must allow the "community" 6 months to raise the cash to buy it themselves.

 

Also easily circumvented by the owner deciding not to sell it. An easy choice for him to make.

 

The bit that puzzles me is why Mr McIvor keeps placing 50% of the Cross Keys on the market as a house, knowing it has no PP which will be revealed by even the most cursory enquiries by any potential buyer. Why does he just not keep it and wait for the 'art gallery' to fail too?

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Also easily circumvented by the owner deciding not to sell it. An easy choice for him to make.

 

The bit that puzzles me is why Mr McIvor keeps placing 50% of the Cross Keys on the market as a house, knowing it has no PP which will be revealed by even the most cursory enquiries by any potential buyer. Why does he just not keep it and wait for the 'art gallery' to fail too?

And he also tried to divide the Barge into two parts and sell them separately till the locals reminded the authorities of a planning restriction that prevented this. I suspect he has a cunning plan! I imagine these large properties would be worth even more if split into two smaller properties, maybe he needs to "establish" that they are separate properties even though he does not intend to sell them right now?. On balance I still think he is a very clever destroyer of pubs for personal gain, with an element of vengeance, but sometimes it almost looks like he takes a scattergun approach and just hopes to hit something.

 

.................Dave

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