Wood filler recommendations.....photos

[NB Esk]

Carrying out some maintenance to the helm of an historic vessel.  Found that the wheel has shrunk and dried over the years (mid 50's).  Does anyone know of a wood filler type product that is liquid enough to run into the joints and splits and, when dried, will accept wood stain or dry to a clear finish?  The finished wheel will be clear varnished.

[David Schweizer]

I always used to use Blackfriars Plastic Wood, but it does not appear to be available any more. I now use Rustins Plastic Wood, which seems to work as well, but is quite quick drying. It is not liquid, but is a paste in a tube which can be forced into cracks and holes with a small spatuila, (or a small screwdriver) They only have a small range of colours, but it will take stain and varnish like normal wood. More details here:- https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-products/wood-preparation/plastic-wood

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by David Schweizer

[NB Esk]

5 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

I always used to use Blackfriars Plastic Wood, but it does not appear to be available any more. I now use Rustins Plastic Wood, which seems to work as well, but is quite quick drying. It is not liquid, but is a paste in a tube which can be forced into cracks and holes with a small spatuila, (or a small screwdriver) They only have a small range of colours, but it will take stain and varnish like normal wood. More details here:- https://www.rustins.ltd/rustins/our-products/wood-preparation/plastic-wood

 

 

 

Thanks David.  I realise it's a long shot, to get something to run into the joints and to take a stain.  The wheel is basically sound but it is possible to flex it slightly and as it's got fairly heavy chain steering, I'd have liked to give it some extra strength.

I wonder if one idea might be to run epoxy or similar into the joint, ending  just below surface and then finishing with paste type filler.  Might this work?  Or has anyone a better idea? Thanks....

[David Schweizer]

38 minutes ago, NB Esk said:

Thanks David.  I realise it's a long shot, to get something to run into the joints and to take a stain.  The wheel is basically sound but it is possible to flex it slightly and as it's got fairly heavy chain steering, I'd have liked to give it some extra strength.

I wonder if one idea might be to run epoxy or similar into the joint, ending  just below surface and then finishing with paste type filler.  Might this work?  Or has anyone a better idea? Thanks....

 

If you want to fill the cracks deep down, I would suggest that you use something like Mitre Bond, which is a high viscosity cynocronatic glue, which will run into the crack, but take care not to fill right up to the surface. It may take a while to cure, and if that is a problem, spray the joint afterwards with Activator, I have used it and the resulting joint is impossible to break. Once cured you can then fill the recess with plastic wood.

 

:- https://www.screwfix.com/c/sealants-adhesives/wood-glues/cat850080?producttype=aerosol_kit|mitre_adhesive|adhesive_trade_kit|mitre_adhesive_trade_pack|joiners_mate_mitre_bond&cm_sp=managedredirect-_-sealantsadhesives-_-mitreadhesive

 

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by David Schweizer

[jddevel]

 The MAJOR problem with wood is that it expands and contracts with humidity/water so it`s keeping it away from moisture that`s important. Personally I would approach this a different way. Find out exactly what the wood used is. Make some wood fillets to plug the gaps and crevices, glue them and gentle tap them into place. Finish by sanding down the "proud" fillet so as to be flush with the existing contour and stain/varnish to suit. If very careful with the piece of wood select you may even be able to virtually match the grain. I think you will find most fillers will eventually shrink.

I would add to the above that most modern glues (waterproof) are stronger than the wood itself rather like a weld in steel.

[jddevel]

Studying your picture again believe the wood may well be mahogany or stained oak. Plus the brass insert may well be there to assist in keeping it all together.Can it be removed to aid a repair? I would probably cut a wider groove possible with a good stanley knife or chisel, to help manufacture the fillet.

[smileypete]

If the wheel is functional, leave as is, it's 'character' ?

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

Studying your picture again believe the wood may well be mahogany or stained oak. Plus the brass insert may well be there to assist in keeping it all together.Can it be removed to aid a repair? I would probably cut a wider groove possible with a good stanley knife or chisel, to help manufacture the fillet.

 

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

 The MAJOR problem with wood is that it expands and contracts with humidity/water so it`s keeping it away from moisture that`s important. Personally I would approach this a different way. Find out exactly what the wood used is. Make some wood fillets to plug the gaps and crevices, glue them and gentle tap them into place. Finish by sanding down the "proud" fillet so as to be flush with the existing contour and stain/varnish to suit. If very careful with the piece of wood select you may even be able to virtually match the grain. I think you will find most fillers will eventually shrink.

I would add to the above that most modern glues (waterproof) are stronger than the wood itself rather like a weld in steel.

 

The wood certainly looks like Mahogany which has suffered some related age shrinkage. Mahogany is a very stable timber and any exposure to moisture is unlikely to affect it very much, if at all. Conversly driving wedges into splits along the grain is likely to worsen the situation. As suggested by Smiley Pete the Brass ring may well be holding it together, but my advice is to leave it in situ, unless the wheel joints are loose. Judging by the offset narrow driving slots, the steel screws appear to be very old, and will probably snap off if you tried to remove them. If you do decide to remove them, new screws will have to be deployed, moving the ring around the wheel to re locate the screw holes.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

I would suggest that you use something like Mitre Bond, which is a high viscosity cynocronatic glue, which will run into the crack, but take care not to fill right up to the surface. It may take a while to cure, and if that is a problem, spray the joint afterwards with Activator,

In my opinion this is an excellent suggestion. It will stabilise the whole thing without doing any further damage.

 

The only wood filler I’ve come across that will withstand dampness and constant expansion and shrinking of the wood is a polyester resin 2-part but it doesn’t take stain very well (it’s very much like car body filler). Something like this: https://www.screwfix.com/p/ronseal-high-performance-wood-filler-natural-550g/51811?tc=FT4&ds_kid=92700023141680282&ds_rl=1247848&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1NzZBRCoARIsAIaMwusZDmpMpRGpmcpmdb1Z7iyIbCD3J_R9DJ0okyAGc4NpKZNhVDqVloIaAigZEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CKrRsM3Y-9sCFa0w0wod5wEE-w

 

 

[NB Esk]

I won't be trying to remove any of the brasswork from the wheel.  Looking at how it was constructed I'd say the sides of the wheel were finish sanded after the brass rings were fitted, reason being the grooves in the screw heads are very shallow.  Also the screws go right through to the opposite ring and are threaded into it, the ends of the threads being flush with the face of the rings.

A lot of the neglect is due to the wood really drying out, since I've owned it I've given it several coats of linseed oil and although much better now, there's still some way to go.

[nbfiresprite]

You can always make your own filler by mixing sawdust of the same type of timber with wood glue until it is a paste and push into the gap, once sanded after the paste has set, You would have to look carefully to find where it has been filled.  

[Jerra]

21 minutes ago, nbfiresprite said:

You can always make your own filler by mixing sawdust of the same type of timber with wood glue until it is a paste and push into the gap, once sanded after the paste has set, You would have to look carefully to find where it has been filled.  

I was thinking that as well, what my Dad, a wheelwright, used to refer to as "bomantague" (can't be sure of the spelling as he never wrote it).

[jddevel]

7 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Mahogany which has suffered some related age shrinkage

 

7 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

Conversly driving wedges

I will bow to greater experience and knowledge but would comment that I personally have not experienced shrinkage in such a stable timber as true mahogany but believe these "cracks" to possibly be stress related. I also refer to my comment when I suggested "tapping them gently" not using the force implied by the word "driving". I would further remark that the location mostly shown will probably been weakened considerable during construction by the obvious number of mortice/tenon joints in the location. These may have been weakened further with the old fashioned types of glue ( collagen or animal glues) that may have been used.

[jddevel]

One final point it is difficult to confirm from the photograph because of the difficulty of studying the grain however it may be that be that the "v" shaped piece is indeed  an original separate piece especially ther certainly appears to be an origin/previous fillet below the band/

[NB Esk]

8 hours ago, jddevel said:

One final point it is difficult to confirm from the photograph because of the difficulty of studying the grain however it may be that be that the "v" shaped piece is indeed  an original separate piece especially ther certainly appears to be an origin/previous fillet below the band/

Thanks for your comments.  I did wonder about that joint but on the back side of the wheel is a joint on just one spoke, that is clearly intentional.  I'm more at home working in metal and know little about constructing a ships wheel, does the last joint need to be fitted with a sort of "keystone"?  If not why would this be done?

[David Mack]

That doesn't look intentional to me. I think the wood has just split. The one on the left is curved, following the grain.

[Jerra]

20 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That doesn't look intentional to me. I think the wood has just split. The one on the left is curved, following the grain.

I tend to agree there is an identical "split" on the second of the two original photos.   There isn't a a matching one beside it which suggests they weren't "built in".

[NB Esk]

22 minutes ago, David Mack said:

That doesn't look intentional to me. I think the wood has just split. The one on the left is curved, following the grain.

I've just been to look and I think you're right, at first glance they are just so symmetrical.

1 minute ago, Jerra said:

I tend to agree there is an identical "split" on the second of the two original photos.   There isn't a a matching one beside it which suggests they weren't "built in".

Yes, cross posted but I agree.

[David Schweizer]

And your dad would immediately recgnise that the steering wheel in question was made by someone who had no idea how to build a wheel.  Two spokes of a wheelwright made wheel would always be morticed into each feloe, which would be joined together between spokes, not on the feloe joint, which will cause a weakness in the construction of the wheel.  The illustrations below demonstrate the correct construction of a wheel.

 

                    

 

 

 

                    

 

Edited July 1, 2018 by David Schweizer

[Jerra]

7 minutes ago, David Schweizer said:

And your dad would immediately recgnise that the steering wheel in question was made by someone who had no idea how to build a wheel.  Two spokes of a wheelwright made wheel would always be morticed into each feloe, which would be joined together between spokes, not on the feloe joint, which will cause a weakness in the construction of the wheel.  The illustrations below demonstrate the correct construction of a wheel.

 

                    

 

And your dad would immediately recgnise that the steering wheel in question was made by someone who had no idea how to build a wheel.  Two spokes of a wheelwright made wheel would always be morticed into each feloe, which would be joined together between spokes, not on the feloe joint, which will cause a weakness in the construction of the wheel.  The illustrations below demonstrate the correct construction of a wheel.

 

                    

 

Not only would Dad have recognised, I recognised it had no resemblance to a wheel as in wheel for transport.

[MtB]

20 hours ago, smileypete said:

If the wheel is functional, leave as is, it's 'character' ?

 

This was my thought too. All 'ships wheels' have cracks like this surely? Part of their charm and character.

 

And any wooden boat I've ever been involved with usually has far more pressing stuff needing doing!  

[David Mack]

11 minutes ago, Jerra said:

Not only would Dad have recognised, I recognised it had no resemblance to a wheel as in wheel for transport.

And indeed, the weakness of the construction method is recognised by the provision of the brass rings to hold it all together.

[Billy Boy]

Take the metal ring off clean the joints glue and cramp (tourniquet) put ring back in a new position so not to use same holes.

[Chewbacka]

Just a thought, but if the wood around the splits is ‘moving’, open/closing etc, then filler squeezed into the gaps will probably ‘let go’ making very small gaps, which will draw in and hold water.  This may make things worse.

[jddevel]

8 hours ago, David Schweizer said:

wheel in question was made by someone who had no idea how to build a wheel.

 

8 hours ago, David Mack said:

And indeed, the weakness of the construction method is recognised by the provision of the brass rings to hold it all together.

It was this view which made me wonder whether errors/difficulties of manufacture had led to "improvisation" and my further thoughts.