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Cyclists and CRT Code


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29 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I didn't suggest it was funny! 

He now has, though.....

1 minute ago, Chas78 said:

this post is meant  to be humorous and does not aim to hurt any people or animals ?

 

What does "in jest" mean, if there is no suggestion of "funniness"?

 

Those were the words you used.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

He now has, though.....

 

What does "in jest" mean, if there is no suggestion of "funniness"?

 

Those were the words you used.

 

 

I meant, i interpreted it as a joke. One which I didn't find funny. 

28 minutes ago, Chas78 said:

I would need thousands and that would cost a lot of £££ this post is meant  to be humorous and does not aim to hurt any people or animals ?

It was a bit of a tackless comment :)

Edited by rusty69
Note smiley face to indicate humour
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In Ireland much of the tow path on the Grand and Royal canals is well surfaced and wide enough for maintenance vehicles. You can ride two abreast and bimble along sociably chatting. There is room for the pedestrians as you pass without them having to stumble into the undergrowth. I doubt whether over here much of our canal side paths will ever be widened like this..

In Amsterdam years back they grappled with the car and bicycle problem. Many roads in the city were made one way only for cars and the carriageway left is for bikes going often in both directions. It worked there despite huge controversy but there was a grass roots movement to try and save the lives of children and young people. Huge investment has been made in the road infrastructures ever since.

Only if there is a political will for change to occur will it come about. Manchester is certainly having a go .

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I do not think that any discussion of this nature should descend to any anti cyclist rant. The main question remains as to what CRT can do and have done. CRT appear, if I am not mistaken, to have done much to encourage cycling on the towpaths, without fully understanding the implications of that policy. Without some form of control, be it a licence or physical barriers, or both, cyclists appear to be free to do as they please. Those that care are careful with others, those that do not care just treat all others with varying degrees of contempt. Sadly the latter group, at present vastly out number the former. But as said the problem is not just confined to the towpath, but is found on the footpath and pedestrian areas in towns, cities and even out of town areas.

 

In Birmingham we have a pedestrian area located between Victoria Square and the New Library, where building works has restricted the pathways there for some five years now. There are signs erected asking cyclist to dismount. These are very large signs at each end of the restricted area. It is probably fair to state some 95 % of cyclists using this stretch ignore the signs. For the walkers the inconvenience of a cyclists passing by in a tight spot ranges from mild to major depending on whether the pedestrian is aware of the pass or suffers torn clothing on the times the rider misjudges the distance.

 

On the towpath, there are many features that relate to the working and mooring of boats. Such features such as mooring spikes, ropes and bollards are part of the working waterway and essentially part of that character. Where such exist any cyclist passing through should dismount. The fact that most do not appears to be part of the belief that it is acceptable for it to be done.  If this belief persists other users of the waterways will continue to suffer and CRT will be culpable of allowing such a situation to remain.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Heartland said:

I do not think that any discussion of this nature should descend to any anti cyclist rant. The main question remains as to what CRT can do and have done. CRT appear, if I am not mistaken, to have done much to encourage cycling on the towpaths, without fully understanding the implications of that policy. Without some form of control, be it a licence or physical barriers, or both, cyclists appear to be free to do as they please. Those that care are careful with others, those that do not care just treat all others with varying degrees of contempt. Sadly the latter group, at present vastly out number the former. But as said the problem is not just confined to the towpath, but is found on the footpath and pedestrian areas in towns, cities and even out of town areas.

 

In Birmingham we have a pedestrian area located between Victoria Square and the New Library, where building works has restricted the pathways there for some five years now. There are signs erected asking cyclist to dismount. These are very large signs at each end of the restricted area. It is probably fair to state some 95 % of cyclists using this stretch ignore the signs. For the walkers the inconvenience of a cyclists passing by in a tight spot ranges from mild to major depending on whether the pedestrian is aware of the pass or suffers torn clothing on the times the rider misjudges the distance.

 

On the towpath, there are many features that relate to the working and mooring of boats. Such features such as mooring spikes, ropes and bollards are part of the working waterway and essentially part of that character. Where such exist any cyclist passing through should dismount. The fact that most do not appears to be part of the belief that it is acceptable for it to be done.  If this belief persists other users of the waterways will continue to suffer and CRT will be culpable of allowing such a situation to remain.

 

 

 

 

As part of the deals in getting the tow path surfacing funded in Birmingham all the barriers are now left open, so it is hard to see anything being done that slows cyclists down, as that is not the deal that was entered into.  I can’t really see where this goes unless there are a series of accidents involving cyclist and other cyclists or pedestrians, such that the issue is forced.

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This discussion thread has already mentioned the common "near miss" cases where under Health & Safety Regulations the issue must be of concern to the CRT.

 

A key aim of this post has been to make cyclists, the CRT and other waterway owning authorities more responsible. Whether it has fallen on deaf ears will remain to be seen.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Heartland said:

Those that care are careful with others, those that do not care just treat all others with varying degrees of contempt. Sadly the latter group, at present vastly out number the former.

 

To be fair, I suggest that such a claim is probably based on your own experiences in Birmingham.

 

I'm sure many people would make a similar allegation about London.

However, I think for balance that one should acknowledge that for the vast majority of canal tow-path throughout the country this is not the case.

 

I suggest that once outside many of the major conurbations, responsible cyclists are the majority group, not the minority.

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45 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

To be fair, I suggest that such a claim is probably based on your own experiences in Birmingham.

 

I'm sure many people would make a similar allegation about London.

However, I think for balance that one should acknowledge that for the vast majority of canal tow-path throughout the country this is not the case.

 

I suggest that once outside many of the major conurbations, responsible cyclists are the majority group, not the minority.

One could assume that, outside major conurbations, there are nowhere near as many cyclists, so less chance of being in the vicinity of an irresponsible one. My experiences are of the part of the Bridgewater Canal close to Manchester, (Busy edge of City Centre), and a few places West of Altrincham, (quiet, countryside locations).

 

A significant part of the towpath of The Bridgewater Canal close to Manchester is like a major artery to and from work for many cyclists, and is incredibly busy between about 7am and 9.30am, and between 4.30pm and 6.30pm. Most of the cyclists seem to be on a mission to qualify for the Tour de France, and I see many near misses and dangerous situations, and almost never hearing the ding of a bell, from our moorings opposite.

 

Recently, The Canal company erected some some barriers around 60 yards apart adjacent to our club house and a set of steps from the car park to the towpath. Many, (most), cyclists slow just enough to wobble through the first barrier, then pump as hard as they can to get to the second barrier as fast as possible, slowing again briefly to wobble through the second barrier, before racing off at top speed towards Manchester or Altrincham.

 

Unfortunately, the steps, and the water point mooring, are mid way between the barriers, which is the point of maximum speed attained between the barriers, such that the barriers have had little effect on safety at this dangerous point, and boaters moored outside the club house for a variety of reasons, (watering, elsan, a quick or slow pint), as well as pedestrians and their dogs, joining and leaving the towpath, take their lives in their hands.

 

On the whole, it is my perception that most cyclists have no regard for the rules, common decency, and common sense, ( some do, but they are noticeable by their rarity),... their sole goal being to get from their A to their B as fast as is humanly possible.

 

I think I have said above that my visits to the towpath are now limited to watering, Elasan, and loading/unloading. I am not sure when I changed my ways, but it is several years out of only 7 years on this mooring.

 

As with many things in life, it's all very well having rules, which aim to encourage common decency and sense but, if they are not enforced, such that there are no penalties for breaking them, usually involving dangerous behaviour, some, or many, or most, will ignore them as it suits.

 

I suppose you could say that, as the majority of the Canal network is not in major conurbations, there is much less bad behaviour and danger with respect to cyclists on the majority of the network but, where it exists, it exists in volume.

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With the Bridgewater, this is the responsibility of Peel Ports, and they appear to have the same issues as CRT. I gather that Nottingham also has issues with cyclists on the towpath and this is another CRT area. Other posts indicate the problem is in other locations as well, so it is not just a Birmingham issue. Though to be fair the cyclists issue has been made far worse by the barrier removal, in Birmingham.

 

Many of those cases in Manchester I would classify in the "rogue cyclist" category.  Where a strong element of the group is not those interested in the ride and scenery, but the necessity to get to and from work. It is the case in Birmingham and at the times Richard mentioned.

 

I have come to believe that the only solution is an exclusion zone for cyclists in city areas. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I wrote to Richard Parry on the subject of cyclists on towpaths including the topic of cyclist licensing and the return of the barriers on the towpath in Birmingham. It is the view of the CRT that few cyclists cause concern, most either slow down or dismount when needed. The CRT are keen to make the waterways available to all and believe the CRT code is obeyed by the majority. There is nothing in their present set up that will allow them to introduce a registration system or the staff numbers there to implement it. Richard is also of the opinion that such tactics would drive the leisure cyclist away from the canals. No mention was made of the barriers in Birmingham   

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43 minutes ago, Heartland said:

I wrote to Richard Parry on the subject of cyclists on towpaths including the topic of cyclist licensing and the return of the barriers on the towpath in Birmingham. It is the view of the CRT that few cyclists cause concern, most either slow down or dismount when needed. The CRT are keen to make the waterways available to all and believe the CRT code is obeyed by the majority. There is nothing in their present set up that will allow them to introduce a registration system or the staff numbers there to implement it. Richard is also of the opinion that such tactics would drive the leisure cyclist away from the canals. No mention was made of the barriers in Birmingham   

It would be interesting to push on the barrier subject, as their reason for existence is to stop motorcycles not pedal cycles, and without them how do CRT plan to control the use of motorcycles on the towpath.  I have recently seen the same barriers that is in Birmingham, still locked in other areas, on the Coventry I think.

 

Clearly CRT want to see the towpath being used heavily by responsible cyclists, but if they really think that there is not an excess number of irresponsible ones there are surely culpable when the inevitable happens.  I would have thought they would be keen to acknowledge the issue and distance themselves from it.

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On the subject of motorbikes, I have seen plenty on various towpaths this year. Sometimes idiot kids haring along on monkey bikes etc. Sometimes "responsible" riders taking the easy way to their boat (ie riding not pushing). Most recently I was passed by someone on some kind of electric two wheeled vehicle - like a cross between a skateboard and a little bike. Non of these I condone and it seems to be getting steadily worse.

Edited by Johny London
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What about the use of mobile speed bumps????  CART could issue a pair of such things to every licenced boat along with a couple of warning signs. The mobile bumps to be installed across the tow path at the bow & stern of your boat and secured in place with a mooring pin at either end and the signs to warn cyclists and walkers alike. They could have luminous strips on them that glow in the dark.  Just a thought

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On 30/06/2018 at 01:20, Mike the Boilerman said:

I stop and get off my bike when I encounter multiple people on the towpath, or when I'm approaching someone who seems unaware of my presence.

 

Its becoming embarrassing how many people actually nod and smile and say 'thank you' for what seems to me plain and basic courtesy.

Whilst I rarely feel the need to dismount, i've never found it difficult to be polite and give time and space to others using the towpath. I don't have a bell fitted and rely on slowing down and communication, not everyone has perfect hearing. 

On 30/06/2018 at 11:30, Hudds Lad said:

im not sure what point you’re trying to make here, are you saying you’re overly aggressive towards people who have just as much right to be there as you, or perhaps you’re looking for a date or playing Top Trumps?

 

if it helps, i’m 6’ 2”, 16+stone bearded and long haired, and i ride a bike on the towpath.

do i win?

 

if it wasnt for your description i might think this chap was you

 

 

 

The daily mail personified! There is nothing in the cyclists approach that gives cause for concern. 

On 02/07/2018 at 12:31, Heartland said:

The sign...

 

 

Sign.jpg

As it should be. 

8 hours ago, Johny London said:

On the subject of motorbikes, I have seen plenty on various towpaths this year. Sometimes idiot kids haring along on monkey bikes etc. Sometimes "responsible" riders taking the easy way to their boat (ie riding not pushing). Most recently I was passed by someone on some kind of electric two wheeled vehicle - like a cross between a skateboard and a little bike. Non of these I condone and it seems to be getting steadily worse.

It has become much harder to convince herberts on motorbikes that they are unwelcome on the towpath now that some boaters insist on riding theirs.

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8 hours ago, tosher said:

What about the use of mobile speed bumps????  CART could issue a pair of such things to every licenced boat along with a couple of warning signs. The mobile bumps to be installed across the tow path at the bow & stern of your boat and secured in place with a mooring pin at either end and the signs to warn cyclists and walkers alike. They could have luminous strips on them that glow in the dark.  Just a thought

Wow, that's a really bad idea for a whole litany of reasons.

Edited by jds_1981
Be less rude
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6 hours ago, BWM said:

The daily mail personified! There is nothing in the cyclists approach that gives cause for concern. 

 

There will always be some people who think you're doing something wrong. At that level of aggression I'd just take the boat number (not a given in London) and report to cart.

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I am sure there are many people like BWM who have a concern for others. Yet for those that are walking along the towpath, a bicycle approaching from behind without warning, that is the sound of a bell, can lead to surprise, or even shock. It has led to the pedestrian tripping over ropes, or bollards, stepping into muddy parts of the path or even into a hedge in order to get out of the way. It believe the CRT code makes it clear that pedestrians do not have to literally jump out of the way to allow a cyclist to pass. It is THEY who have the right of way. As a matter of courtesy it is often the case that they do, once a cyclist is seen, but to force a path through, believing the cyclist has the right to do so,  as can be seen on Birmingham towpaths, in my opinion is wrong.

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6 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Weird decision, but you are not alone. Most people have good hearing, so a bell is a great way to let them know you're there, in most circumstances.

I have always found that those with good hearing will generally be aware of my approach but base my own choice on not startling people by slowing down and using verbal communication, this allows you to cater for those who can't hear or are possibly distracted. Bells tend to sound either urgent or impatient in my opinion and often have a detrimental effect on dogs.

  I often take my time moving out of the way of those cycling on the towpath, and the faster/more impatient they are, the slower I move. 

Edited by BWM
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19 hours ago, BWM said:

I don't have a bell fitted and rely on slowing down and communication, not everyone has perfect hearing.

people over a certain age just cant physically hear them i seem to recall reading somewhere, people with headphones on hear nothing at all. 

i do have a bell, but only use it when im pretty sure it can be heard, plus i always slow to a similar pace to who im passing, and make a point of thanking them.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have now had a response from the local CRT office in Birmingham regarding the  motorcycle barriers being left often. This decision was done to allow improved access for all. CRT continue to monitor these spots in case motorcycles become a nuisance. Yet there is an unwillingness to close them as when closed they are frequently vandalised.

 

I am told there is now better signage at Edgbaston Tunnel and rumble strips have been installed there on the towpath that passes through the tunnel! No doubt the cyclists travelling fast will take notice of their speed?

Edited by Heartland
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13 minutes ago, Heartland said:

I have now had a response from the local CRT office in Birmingham regarding the  motorcycle barriers being left often. This decision was done to allow improved access for all. CRT continue to monitor these spots in case motorcycles become a nuisance. Yet there is an unwillingness to close them as when closed they are frequently vandalised.

 

I am told there is now better signage at Edgbaston Tunnel and rumble strips have been installed there on the towpath that passes through the tunnel! No doubt the cyclists travelling fast will take notice of their speed?

So they are basically saying that motorcycles are OK unless they are a “nuisance”?

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24 minutes ago, Heartland said:

 

I am told there is now better signage at Edgbaston Tunnel and rumble strips have been installed there on the towpath that passes through the tunnel! No doubt the cyclists travelling fast will take notice of their speed?

Rumble strips are an odd one - the faster you hit them the more comfortable they are. Probably a nightmare for wheelchair and pram users.

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On 07/08/2018 at 14:49, jds_1981 said:

Rumble strips are an odd one - the faster you hit them the more comfortable they are. Probably a nightmare for wheelchair and pram users.

I have never seen a better trick than chicane fencing wide enough to easily get a bike through.  No impediment at all to prams, wheelchairs or slowly moving cyclists, and a huge problem for speeding cyclists.  

 

I wouldn't want to see them every few hundred yards but strategically placed ones are fantastic, and as they are only two offset fences they are not that expensive either.  The only real criteria is that there is sufficient path width to install them.

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