Diesel costs

[Momac]

Anything over £1 at 60//40 seems expensive but  its only money

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

  Now the vent being in a bollard welded to the top surface of the cants means the builder must have installed an extension pipe from the underside of the dolly before welding it on, down through the height of the cants (2" or so) to penetrate the top of the tank. 

Genuine question, do they?

I assumed that the dolly was just welded over a hole in the top of the tank and the vent screwed in the top of it, the cants being part of the tank, not sections welded on afterwards.

[Momac]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

0.00083 is the expansion by 1 degree increase in temperature.

 

With a 0.00083 expansion 200 litres would increase by 0.166 litres per degree (so yes 4 litres per 25 degree temp increase)

 

When / How is the diesel in a tank pretty much surrounded by coldish water going to increase by even a couple of degrees ?

I guess the diesel not consumed but returned to the tank will be warmed by the engine but i am not convinced it will be by very many degrees. Even then by the the time any such temperature rise and expansion occurs there  will have been some consumption of fuel.

Possibly if the return feed causes the fuel to foam it could , (rather than temperature), result in the expansion and fuel or foam being pushed out of the breather  noted on some boats ?

[MtB]

51 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Genuine question, do they?

I assumed that the dolly was just welded over a hole in the top of the tank and the vent screwed in the top of it, the cants being part of the tank, not sections welded on afterwards.

 

Have a look at the dollies on your boat. They are on the cants not the counter deck. 

 

And the cants do not form part of a counter block diesel tank. 

[Momac]

On 25/06/2018 at 15:03, Alway Swilby said:

But the declaration is for the predicted future use of the diesel not what the stuff you have used was used for.

Is it?

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Is it?

It is.

[BruceinSanity]

3 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I would have thought that the only declaration that may raise eyebrows would be a 100% declaration since how did you get to the refuelling point if none of your fuel is for propulsion (and more to the point, how are you going to leave the refuelling point again since your declaration is, if I understand correctly, for future use).

The rubric allows a residential boat to move around the marina for service purposes without the diesel used counting as propulsion. So going to the service wharf in Mercia in the winter to diesel up for heating purposes you are allowed a 100% domestic declaration. A case of de minimus non curat lex.*

 

*The law is not concerned with trifles.

[Wanderer Vagabond]

10 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

The rubric allows a residential boat to move around the marina for service purposes without the diesel used counting as propulsion. So going to the service wharf in Mercia in the winter to diesel up for heating purposes you are allowed a 100% domestic declaration. A case of de minimus non curat lex.*

 

*The law is not concerned with trifles.

I did only say may raise eyebrows, but my original assertion, following conversations with a lot of refuelling places was,"Has anyone had any experience of the 'inspector' querying anything?" and the general consensus seems to be 'no'. They are all holding onto a load of documentation but no-one seems to have ever bothered to come and look at any of it, perhaps this is another case of de minimus non curat lex

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

And the cants do not form part of a counter block diesel tank. 

That is a bit hard to say in my case, I will see if I can tell from the filler but I doubt I will be able to. Going by the front cants they are part of the front locker

[BruceinSanity]

8 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

I did only say may raise eyebrows, but my original assertion, following conversations with a lot of refuelling places was,"Has anyone had any experience of the 'inspector' querying anything?" and the general consensus seems to be 'no'. They are all holding onto a load of documentation but no-one seems to have ever bothered to come and look at any of it, perhaps this is another case of de minimus non curat lex

I'm sure that's right. The Revenue didn't want the duty on our diesel and this is a piece of eurofudge. The take from it compared to VAT must be trivial and that's what the inspectors are really looking at.

[Momac]

48 minutes ago, BruceinSanity said:

I'm sure that's right. The Revenue didn't want the duty on our diesel and this is a piece of eurofudge. The take from it compared to VAT must be trivial and that's what the inspectors are really looking at.

I understand the authorities in Belgium  insist that the owner of a  boat arriving from the UK  has receipts for fuel to the full tank volume with 100% full duty paid. If not they are imposing fines. I expect  that doesn't affect anyone on this forum but it doe show the strength of feeling in other EU states about duty on diesel.  

I do not know what the UK position will be regarding duty on diesel for recreational boat use when we leave the EU. Do you think it will revert to domestic rate ?

 

[alan_fincher]

On 25/06/2018 at 08:23, dor said:

Just looking at the figures quoted for the split.  I'm pretty certain that the "60/40" split often quoted is 60% propulsion, 40% domestic, i.e. the propulsion percentage is first.

 

A lot of people seem to be quoting figures where the propulsion percentage is first (do you really want to claim 80% propulsion?).

^^^^^^^

 

This, which is why some of  the posts above make little sense!

 

60/40 is 60% propulsion.

 

To be declaring less than that, the first number has to come down, and the second one go up!

[doratheexplorer]

12 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Have a look at the dollies on your boat. They are on the cants not the counter deck. 

 

And the cants do not form part of a counter block diesel tank. 

Ummm, whats a cant and a counter deck/counter block?  I know what a dolly is but I'm not sure we have the same idea.

[Boat&Bikes]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

I understand the authorities in Belgium  insist that the owner of a  boat arriving from the UK  has receipts for fuel to the full tank volume with 100% full duty paid. If not they are imposing fines. I expect  that doesn't affect anyone on this forum but it doe show the strength of feeling in other EU states about duty on diesel.  

I do not know what the UK position will be regarding duty on diesel for recreational boat use when we leave the EU. Do you think it will revert to domestic rate ?

 

I expect post Brexit that as government sees falling taxes that it will be grabbing every penny it can. 

[Col_T]

Sorry to backtrack, but there are a couple of things I don't understand here, mainly around the 'expansion' topic.

 

Firstly, get a block of steel, heat it enough to measure how much it has expanded and you will find that all three dimensions have increased e.g. it is wider, and deeper and higher. If that is case, wouldn't heating a tank cause it's volume to decrease a little?

 

Secondly, in the scenario where a mooring dolly includes a fuel breather, and a tube extends down from the dolly into the tank. If I've understood it correctly, the suggestion is that expansion of air within the tank will cause a noticeable amount of diesel to be ejected through the fuel breather. Doesn't this require an amount of fuel to be trapped above the air so it can be expelled? If so, how does that fuel get trapped above the pocket of air in the first place?

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Col_T said:

Firstly, get a block of steel, heat it enough to measure how much it has expanded and you will find that all three dimensions have increased e.g. it is wider, and deeper and higher. If that is case, wouldn't heating a tank cause it's volume to decrease a little?

But we are not talking about a steel 'block'.

 

1) The way of fitting an 'iron-tyre' to a cart wheel was to heat it to cherry-red where the diameter of the 'tyre' increase so it can be slid over the wooden wheel, as it cools it shrinks back to its original size and becomes a tight fit onto the wheel.

 

2) If you want to free-off a 'stuck' nut (on a bolt), heat the nut with a blow torch and it expands by more than the bolt expands and it can be easily undone.

[Machpoint005]

12 hours ago, BruceinSanity said:

The rubric allows a residential boat to move around the marina for service purposes without the diesel used counting as propulsion. So going to the service wharf in Mercia in the winter to diesel up for heating purposes you are allowed a 100% domestic declaration. A case of de minimus non curat lex.

 

Of course, the tiny amount of diesel used for that purpose may have been bought before the derogation was ended!

[Col_T]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But we are not talking about a steel 'block'.

 

1) The way of fitting an 'iron-tyre' to a cart wheel was to heat it to cherry-red where the diameter of the 'tyre' increase so it can be slid over the wooden wheel, as it cools it shrinks back to its original size and becomes a tight fit onto the wheel.

 

2) If you want to free-off a 'stuck' nut (on a bolt), heat the nut with a blow torch and it expands by more than the bolt expands and it can be easily undone.

Quite right, Alan, but in both the cases you cite, the metal that is heated will expand in three dimensions. My question is, if a steel tank is heated, and therefore all sides expand in three dimensions, would the capacity of the tank actually decrease slightly?

[artleknock]

1 hour ago, Col_T said:

Quite right, Alan, but in both the cases you cite, the metal that is heated will expand in three dimensions. My question is, if a steel tank is heated, and therefore all sides expand in three dimensions, would the capacity of the tank actually decrease slightly?

No. for the same reason an iron tyre gets bigger when heated, the length and width of a panel are MUCH bigger than its thickness and the all increase by the same percentage.

[Col_T]

9 minutes ago, artleknock said:

No. for the same reason an iron tyre gets bigger when heated, the length and width of a panel are MUCH bigger than its thickness and the all increase by the same percentage.

Ah, okay. Penny slow to drop, but it has now! Thanks for the explanation.

[MtB]

26 minutes ago, Col_T said:

Quite right, Alan, but in both the cases you cite, the metal that is heated will expand in three dimensions. My question is, if a steel tank is heated, and therefore all sides expand in three dimensions, would the capacity of the tank actually decrease slightly?

 

No. The volume of the tank will expand as if the space inside was solid steel. 

 

Imagine heating up your block of solid steel. The whole bloke gets bigger, yes? There are no internal stresses inside the block as it has all been heated up uniformly, yes?

 

Now imagine there was a way to remove some, or a lot, of the steel inside the block. The hot steel shell remaining would not shrink or change dimensions in any way (no internal stress) so the volume of the space created inside will expand and shrink with temperature, as though it were solid steel. 

 

A difficult concept to grasp but hope I explained it well enough.

[ditchcrawler]

I think it would all be a lot better if we (boaters) didn't keep highlighting this as some jobs worth  one day will decide to make a name for himself and we will all suffer

[MtB]

1 hour ago, doratheexplorer said:

Ummm, whats a cant and a counter deck/counter block?  I know what a dolly is but I'm not sure we have the same idea.

 

The dollies are the steel pegs on the back your mooring lines are tied to.

 

The cant is the raised steel area the dollies are welded onto. This used to be a separate component made of oak and bolted onto the counter deck.

 

The counter block is the rounded back end of your boat. A solid lump of oak on a wooden boat but on a steel boat, is fabricated from sheet steel and is sometimes the fuel tank too. 

 

The counter is a loose term for the flat (or slightly sloping) area you stand on when steering (trad style boat, not a cruiser stern). 

 

The counter deck is my term meaning specifically the surface you stand on, onto which the cants are welded.

 

 

[doratheexplorer]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The dollies are the steel pegs on the back your mooring lines are tied to.

 

The cant is the raised steel area the dollies are welded onto. This used to be a separate component made of oak and bolted onto the counter deck.

 

The counter block is the rounded back end of your boat. A solid lump of oak on a wooden boat but on a steel boat, is fabricated from sheet steel and is sometimes the fuel tank too. 

 

The counter is a loose term for the flat (or slightly sloping) area you stand on when steering (trad style boat, not a cruiser stern). 

 

The counter deck is my term meaning specifically the surface you stand on, onto which the cants are welded.

 

 

I think my boat is different to yours.

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

The dollies are the steel pegs on the back your mooring lines are tied to.

 

The cant is the raised steel area the dollies are welded onto. This used to be a separate component made of oak and bolted onto the counter deck.

 

The counter block is the rounded back end of your boat. A solid lump of oak on a wooden boat but on a steel boat, is fabricated from sheet steel and is sometimes the fuel tank too. 

 

The counter is a loose term for the flat (or slightly sloping) area you stand on when steering (trad style boat, not a cruiser stern). 

 

The counter deck is my term meaning specifically the surface you stand on, onto which the cants are welded.

 

 

This is how my bow deck and cants are constructed, I don't know about the rear as I can't see in the diesel tank

3 minutes ago, doratheexplorer said:

I think my boat is different to yours.