First Cruise - Help and advice!

[FloatyMcBoaty]

Title is a little bit dramatic, really it shouldn't be ?

 

I'm planning on moving my new narrowboat from Thatcham (near Monkey Marsh Lock) on the River Kennet all the way up to Uxbridge. 

 

I've been advised that this route is fairly straight forward and have mapped it out on canalplan.org.uk. I plan on getting as far as possible over 3 days (Saturday to Monday). I was told that I should think of it in 2 sections - getting from the Kennet to Teddington, then on the canal system to Uxbridge. It was also mentioned that I might need to consider tide levels.

 

This is my first proper journey, so I'm a little apprehensive. Can anyone offer any advice for a smooth passage on the waterways? Do I need to book a slot at any locks or anything like that?

 

Thank you!

[Peter X]

The main advice I would offer is this:

(1) If possible, don't attempt your first trip single handed. It's a lot easier with someone along as crew. Preferably someone experienced, but even having another beginner is very helpful when you're doing the locks. I would volunteer, but I'm not boating for the next few weeks because I need to rest myself.

(2) Your trip includes some tricky bits; there's Woolhampton and the road bridge, then the Kennet through Reading, featuring Fobney Lock (big, with a strong flow out of the bywash, but more trouble going uphill than down). Then when approaching County Lock, beware its weir; be sure to tie up under the bridge before it and walk round the corner to make sure the lock's top gates are open before your boat arrives. After County lock be aware you need to push the button to get a green light for the one way section through the Oracle shopping centre.

(3) For the Thames you need an anchor and life jackets, and make sure you keep a good lookout for small craft and weirs. The locks are mostly operated by lock keepers, but sometimes self-operated; electric powered, push button operation, not difficult.

(4) The trickiest bit is Teddington to Brentford (the only lock on your trip you have to book) on the tidal Thames. Plan to leave Teddington at the correct stage of the tide, and know how to recognise Brentford when you get there. There are topics on the forum about that transit, please find and read them.

(5) Nothing very difficult about the last section on the GU!

[Scholar Gypsy]

You've got about 4 miles of tidal Thames between Teddington and Brentford. I'll comment on that, But it's relatively straightforward, and in particular you don't need VHF radio. I would say

 

• you should have a good anchor, chain and warp. You should have that for any river, in my view.
• Lifejackets are a good idea, falling in on the tideway is not good fun
• This table shows when Brentford locks are open (basically 2 hours either side of high tide, between 0800 and 1800. They will open with prior booking 0500-0800 and 1800-2200).
• It's worth calling them a day or so beforehand to tell them you are on the way and make sure they will be there.
• Teddington is staffed 24/7 and you just turn up and go.
• You want to leave Teddington about 30-60 mins or so before High Water there (ie 30 mins after HW London Bridge)
• The amusing bit is spotting the entrance to Brentford Creek. It's on the left, just after Brentford Dock marina (1960s buildings, you don't want to go in there). Try to avoid going too far past the entrance. That stretch is all on Google Streetview (courtesy of one of the Harbour master's boats), see here. The dock is on the left in this photo, which is looking downstream. The creek is on the left just behind the two big trees and before the silver thing which I believe is supposed to be piece of modern "art". You can see the artwork and the entrance more clearly here
• Some general advice here

 

[ETA I agree with all Peter X says, of course. It is worth making sure you have all the relevant phone numbers programmed into your mobile phone - Teddington, Richmond lock (which you don't need to use), Brentford, and London VTS - the Harbourmaster.]

Edited June 20, 2018 by Scholar Gypsy

[FloatyMcBoaty]

Thank you both for the very detailed replies. I'm going to read through everything you've written in more detail tomorrow morning (and then inevitably return with more questions). 

[dmr]

And as you are new to this and the boat try to avoid doing Teddington to Brentford on a Spring Tide.

 

..............Dave

[OldGoat]

• You'll need a licence for the Thames - purchase from the first lock you go through.
• I think three days is pushing it - you'd need two on the Thames plus an allowance (waiting) for the optimum tide time. As a beginner you MUST follow the Teddington Lock keeper's suggestion as the best time to leave and the opening times for Brentford Lock. Otherwise you'd need a powerful engine to punch the flow at Brentford.
• You need longer lines (fore and aft) for Thames locks - even when going downhill.

That'll do for a start

[Peter X]

You mentioned a three day slot to start moving the boat, which I think may be enough to get you from Thatcham to Brentford if we assume:

(1) it's soon, while long days of daylight are available, and you're fit enough and happy to do long days

(2) You have crew; being single handed would be much slower, especially on the K&A section.

(3) You plan ahead for the tidal Thames, as described by Scholar Gypsy who I'm sure knows it better than I do.

 

Assuming you have an annual CRT licence and just want a temporary EA licence for Reading to Teddington (below which it's PLA, no licence required), you have a dilemma; either buy a week's licence, or attempt it on a one day licence. The latter option would give you the day you buy it, at the first Thames lock where you encounter a lock keeper, plus the next day. So to do it, and to reach Brentford in three days, you'd have to plan to moor just above Fobney lock on the Saturday night, get up and make a very early start (crack of dawn!) on the Sunday, then keep moving and covering the miles well into Sunday evening, and again on Monday. Much would depend on the Monday having an evening tide at a convenient time.

 

The trouble is, if you don't get to Brentford in your three days, I'm not sure where you could leave the boat until you can get back to carry on; it could cost you a lot for a marina place on the posh lower Thames I imagine. Probably better to get a week's EA licence and either find an extra day or two to do it, or move the boat along near to Reading beforehand (the Friday evening?) then have three days from there to Brentford.

 

Once you're on CRT waters at Brentford you can easily find somewhere to moor the boat a while before doing the last day up to Uxbridge.

I hope we're not overwhelming you with too much information!

[OldGoat]

It seems a long trip, so I did a canalplan search. It suggests:-

This is calculated based on 4 full days travelling starting at Monkey Marsh Lock No 90.

Each full day will be approximately 8 hours and 40 minutes travelling.

 

First full day of trip

On the River Kennet, at County Lock No 106 (two thirds of the way between Winding Hole above Fobney Lock and Cooks Bridge). This is 14 miles, 4 furlongs and 14 locks of small rivers and will take 8 hours 40 minutes. Today's journey involves at least 9 moveable bridges.

Second full day of trip

On the River Thames (below Oxford), at Headpile Eyot (half way between Boulter's Lock and Racecourse Yacht Basin Entrance). This is 1 mile, 1½ furlongs and 2 locks of small rivers, and 24 miles, 5½ furlongs and 9 locks of large rivers; a total of 25 miles, 7 furlongs and 11 locks and will take 8 hours 41 minutes..

Third full day of trip

On the River Thames (below Oxford), at Kingston Moorings. This is 26 miles, 2½ furlongs and 10 locks of large rivers and will take 8 hours 41 minutes..

Last day of trip

On the Grand Union Canal (Grand Junction Canal - Main Line - Gayton to Brentford), at Uxbridge Boat Centre. This is 11 miles, ¾ furlongs and 13 locks of broad canals, 2 miles, 3½ furlongs and 2 locks of large rivers, and 5 miles, ¾ furlongs and 1 lock of tidal rivers; a total of 18 miles, 5 furlongs and 16 locks and will take 8 hours 41 minutes. Today's journey involves at least 3 small aqueducts or underbridges. You will pass through Hanwell Locks.

 

Perhaps quite no so horrendous, especially if you're a masochist

However it completely ignores the issue of tidal transit window from Teddington to Brentford. On some days it's not really possible / practicable

 

[FloatyMcBoaty]

Thank you all very much for your input - you're not wrong, it suddenly all feels a bit overwhelming! 

 

I'm not deterred and will be making part of the trip this weekend based on your feedback. Just to clarify a few things:

• I have will have a crew - yes inexperienced, but hardy and positive like myself!
• I have lifejackets

Questions, questions and more questions!

• I think there is an anchor on the boat (I'm just getting this checked as I'm not near the boat). If not, would this suffice? Do I need both warp and chain and if so what length is recommended (i've never used an anchor before). Should it be attached to the bow - I'm reading conflicting information online? 
• I think I will undertake just the first part of the trip this weekend, get a feel for the boat and stop before I get to the Thames. It sounds like it makes sense to do the Thames in one go as I don't want to run out of time before I reach the Grand Union, especially if there is no where to moor without paying through the nose.
• Is there plenty of space to moor freely around Reading just before the Thames?
• The whole tide situation is confusing me a little. On Saturdays and Sundays in June it looks as if the Brentford lock is only available for a few hours in the morning through to the afternoon. If the high tide doesn't correspond with these times does it mean you have to wait until the next day or will the high tide usually correspond? I'm going to speak to the lock master if possible to get a better understanding. 
• DMR - why do you suggest avoiding a spring tide?

Thanks again for all your help.

[David Mack]

28 minutes ago, FloatyMcBoaty said:

The whole tide situation is confusing me a little. On Saturdays and Sundays in June it looks as if the Brentford lock is only available for a few hours in the morning through to the afternoon. If the high tide doesn't correspond with these times does it mean you have to wait until the next day or will the high tide usually correspond? I'm going to speak to the lock master if possible to get a better understanding. 

 

The lock times shown on SG's link (this table ) are the times when the tides at Brentford are suitable for you to lock through. High tide at Brentford is an hour after high tide at London Bridge, and the locks are usable 2 hours either side of high tide. So there is a 4 hour window at each high tide.  If this falls within normal working hours for the lockies you can (in theory) just turn up. If the tide window is outside working hours, but after 0500 or before 2200, you can book a passage - these times are in the grey shaded column on the right. 

 

So for example, last Saturday (16th) you could have just turned up between 15.45 and 1800, or by prebooking you could have extended this slot to 1945, or you could have gone through between 0500 and 0715 if pre-booked.  This weekend the tide times are such that there are no out of hours passages, but you can turn up between 9.45 and 13.45 on Saturday or 1100 and 1500 on Sunday. Both of these would fit with spending the night before above Teddington Lock.

[Dr Bob]

Spring tides have high tides that are higher than neap tides and with much faster flows up or down the river. Springs occur every two weeks and neaps the weeks in between. The river is far more benign on neaps. The timing of high tides is on a cycle that repeats over the two weeks so the neap high tides and spring high tides occur at the same time of day. I don't know the tide times down there but the window for Brentford may fav our one or tother. Maybe one of the locals can comment. I would avoid a tidal river on springs especially when windy with the wind against the tide.

[Up-Side-Down]

Treat yourself to new copies of the Nicholson Guides. Book 7 – River Thames and the Southern Waterways – will get you from Thatcham onto the Grand Union, with Book 1 – Grand Union, Oxford & the South East – covering your trip north up to Uxbridge. Everything you need to know is in there!

[OldGoat]

10 hours ago, FloatyMcBoaty said:

Thank you all very much for your input - you're not wrong, it suddenly all feels a bit overwhelming! 

 

I'm not deterred and will be making part of the trip this weekend based on your feedback. Just to clarify a few things:

• I have will have a crew - yes inexperienced, but hardy and positive like myself!
• I have lifejackets

Questions, questions and more questions!

• I think there is an anchor on the boat (I'm just getting this checked as I'm not near the boat). If not, would this suffice? Do I need both warp and chain and if so what length is recommended (i've never used an anchor before). Should it be attached to the bow - I'm reading conflicting information online? 
• I think I will undertake just the first part of the trip this weekend, get a feel for the boat and stop before I get to the Thames. It sounds like it makes sense to do the Thames in one go as I don't want to run out of time before I reach the Grand Union, especially if there is no where to moor without paying through the nose.
• Is there plenty of space to moor freely around Reading just before the Thames?
• The whole tide situation is confusing me a little. On Saturdays and Sundays in June it looks as if the Brentford lock is only available for a few hours in the morning through to the afternoon. If the high tide doesn't correspond with these times does it mean you have to wait until the next day or will the high tide usually correspond? I'm going to speak to the lock master if possible to get a better understanding. 
• DMR - why do you suggest avoiding a spring tide?

Thanks again for all your help.

Crew - good

Anchor a bit light (mine is 25Kgs for a 60 foot boat but it's a pain to deploy and retrieve. Better than nothing...

chain and line - can't remember the exact lengths 10 of chain and 15 of rope may be sufficient.

You don't have to pay a Kings Ransom to moor overnight There are EA moorings where the first night is free - you just have to ring TVM to register arrival and departure (thamesvisitormoorings.co.uk) You've continuous moorers to thank for the difficulty in finding other moorings

Spring tides are higher and lower than most and the channel to Brentford is shallow and has a sand bar near the entrance

Moorings in Reading are expensive (£9.50 per night) and you have to ring a separate company to pay and book. CMers again

[Scholar Gypsy]

The tidal stream between Teddington & Brentford really isn't very strong around high water,  which is when you transit.  [It was negligible this morning when i came up from Limehouse,  a neap tide].

 

If you set off 1 hr before HW Teddington you will get to Brentford only slightly after HW, which makes the turn easier.  If you leave at HW Teddington the journey will be quicker (whos in a hurry...) but the turn into Brentford more exciting / challenging.

[dmr]

12 hours ago, FloatyMcBoaty said:

Thank you all very much for your input - you're not wrong, it suddenly all feels a bit overwhelming! 

 

I'm not deterred and will be making part of the trip this weekend based on your feedback. Just to clarify a few things:

• I have will have a crew - yes inexperienced, but hardy and positive like myself!
• I have lifejackets

Questions, questions and more questions!

• I think there is an anchor on the boat (I'm just getting this checked as I'm not near the boat). If not, would this suffice? Do I need both warp and chain and if so what length is recommended (i've never used an anchor before). Should it be attached to the bow - I'm reading conflicting information online? 
• I think I will undertake just the first part of the trip this weekend, get a feel for the boat and stop before I get to the Thames. It sounds like it makes sense to do the Thames in one go as I don't want to run out of time before I reach the Grand Union, especially if there is no where to moor without paying through the nose.
• Is there plenty of space to moor freely around Reading just before the Thames?
• The whole tide situation is confusing me a little. On Saturdays and Sundays in June it looks as if the Brentford lock is only available for a few hours in the morning through to the afternoon. If the high tide doesn't correspond with these times does it mean you have to wait until the next day or will the high tide usually correspond? I'm going to speak to the lock master if possible to get a better understanding. 
• DMR - why do you suggest avoiding a spring tide?

Thanks again for all your help.

Trouble with Canal Plan is it tells you where to stop based just on timings, not on safe sensible and practical places to stop. The old wisdom was to stop at the Cunning man, then get up early to get through Reading and out onto the Thames. Fobney lock was a bandit spot, its better now but I would still try not to moor there overnight. No practiical moorings near County lock.  

 

The availability of Brentford will be based on the suitable tides that occur within the working days.

 

Much greater flow on Spring tides. A few year ago we delivered a very under-powerred boat on a spring tide and the turn into Brentford was tricky!

 

...............Dave

[OldGoat]

46 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

The tidal stream between Teddington & Brentford really isn't very strong around high water,  which is when you transit.  [It was negligible this morning when i came up from Limehouse,  a neap tide].

 

If you set off 1 hr before HW Teddington you will get to Brentford only slightly after HW, which makes the turn easier.  If you leave at HW Teddington the journey will be quicker (whos in a hurry...) but the turn into Brentford more exciting / challenging.

Remember that the OP is unaccustomed to tides and water flowing stuff - that's why he should contact Teddington Lock and ask their advice for a range of dates that will work best for you. Another advantage is that they generally 'pool' folks going downstream - so there's a little convoy (TL is a big lock with an even bigger one next to the usual one) - tha boosts confidence!

[Scholar Gypsy]

4 hours ago, OldGoat said:

Remember that the OP is unaccustomed to tides and water flowing stuff - that's why he should contact Teddington Lock and ask their advice for a range of dates that will work best for you. Another advantage is that they generally 'pool' folks going downstream - so there's a little convoy (TL is a big lock with an even bigger one next to the usual one) - tha boosts confidence!

I agree. There were half a dozen boats assembling to go from Teddington to Brentford today, when we arrived at 1000, 45mins before High Water.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Scholar Gypsy

[system 4-50]

14 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

Spring tides have high tides that are higher than neap tides and with much faster flows up or down the river. Springs occur every two weeks and neaps the weeks in between. The river is far more benign on neaps. The timing of high tides is on a cycle that repeats over the two weeks so the neap high tides and spring high tides occur at the same time of day. I don't know the tide times down there but the window for Brentford may fav our one or tother. Maybe one of the locals can comment. I would avoid a tidal river on springs especially when windy with the wind against the tide.

shouldn't that be every four weeks?

[dmr]

20 minutes ago, system 4-50 said:

shouldn't that be every four weeks?

My old house in Southampton had a garden down to the Itchen estuary, and many weekends were spent watching the tide go in and out and I still don't really understand it ?.  Springs are when the moon and sun pull together but this can be either with them pulling together on the same side of the earth, or on opposite sides, so there is  both a two week and a four week cycle, springs are every two weeks, but every month the springs are extra high. There are additional effects with the moon getting closer to the earth etc which means that springs are extra high in autumn and spring (I think). Spring high tides always occur midday or midnight. I remember a few sleepless nights when weather conditions added to the springs causing the garden to flood and water to get worryingly close to the house.

 

..............Dave 

[Dr Bob]

Yes, springs every two weeks, not four, but dmr's springs at midday and midnight are only for that location. On the Forth, nr Blackness, high springs were 5am/5pm ish so it all depends on where's you are in the country. We never really saw the difference between the 2 and 4 weeks cycle so that may vary around the coast but we did see the big springs in March and September which are consistent all around the U.K.

Southhamton ( or somewhere nearby) is weird for tides as one of the places in the country where you get two high tides peaks per cycle ( an hour apart?). I did my yacht master exam down there and it was different from up in Scotland.

On the Irish coast just south of the north to south border, there is virtually no tidal rise or fall, but the current changes direction from north to south and bombs along at 5 knts at springs.

Thats the thing I love about the canals. No worry about tides.

[dmr]

5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Yes, springs every two weeks, not four, but dmr's springs at midday and midnight are only for that location. On the Forth, nr Blackness, high springs were 5am/5pm ish so it all depends on where's you are in the country. We never really saw the difference between the 2 and 4 weeks cycle so that may vary around the coast but we did see the big springs in March and September which are consistent all around the U.K.

Southhamton ( or somewhere nearby) is weird for tides as one of the places in the country where you get two high tides peaks per cycle ( an hour apart?). I did my yacht master exam down there and it was different from up in Scotland.

On the Irish coast just south of the north to south border, there is virtually no tidal rise or fall, but the current changes direction from north to south and bombs along at 5 knts at springs.

Thats the thing I love about the canals. No worry about tides.

And according to the www some places have only one high tide every 24 hours rather than two. Its incredibly complicated because the oceans are sort of dragged along by the moon, so the high tide rushes round the globe, but just like a lock is slow to fill then some bits of the sea are slow because landmass or shallow water slows this tidal flow down. The double high tide in Southampton was always said to be the tide coming up each side of the Isle of Wight, but the experts say its an oscillation of water between the two masses of water either side of the English channel that just happens to "combine harmonics" at Southampton water.  Some big lakes can also show a very small tide so just maybe if we did not have locks the entire canal system would show a bit of tide??????

 

.............Dave

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

On the Thames, spring high tides are about 1200 GMT at Margate (full moon and new moon) and neap high tides about 1700. London Bridge is 2 hours later, Tedd/Brentford an hour more, and then you need to add an hour for BST.

 

There are some excellent books on tides, I have one explaining the way predictions are done and on how the power converted to heat and motion is something like 3x global electricity generation output.  I will try and find it today. Tide tables are only predictions - they were 0.4m out yesterday on the Thames which when you think about is a lot of water in the wrong place. Lots of real time data on the PLA website (and their new app) if you are interested. We used a lot of this for the recent  trip to Dartford.

 

Decidedly off topic, but here's a puzzle. Why does the water level at Ely, on the definitely non-tidal Great Ouse, show a standard tidal pattern with "high tide" about 4 hours after Kings Lynn? If you don't believe me, look here: http://www.gaugemap.co.uk/#!Map/Summary/1671/1812
 

[David Mack]

On 23/06/2018 at 05:26, Scholar Gypsy said:

 

Decidedly off topic, but here's a puzzle. Why does the water level at Ely, on the definitely non-tidal Great Ouse, show a standard tidal pattern with "high tide" about 4 hours after Kings Lynn? If you don't believe me, look here: http://www.gaugemap.co.uk/#!Map/Summary/1671/1812
 

Probably something to do with the fact that you lock UP from the tidal Great Ouse to the non-tidal Ely Ouse at Denver, and then lock UP again onto the tidal Great Ouse at Hermitage Lock at Earith!

[Scholar Gypsy]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

Probably something to do with the fact that you lock UP from the tidal Great Ouse to the non-tidal Ely Ouse at Denver, and then lock UP again onto the tidal Great Ouse at Hermitage Lock at Earith!

I think this effect is because water is only let out at Denver at low tide.  Most of the time the tidal water is above the non tidal section and the V doors shut. So the whole structure is like a huge one way valve.  

 

When it is shut the water backs up all the way to Ely. Depends on amount of fresh water coming down the Cam, Lark, Little Ouse & Wissey.

 

Sorry I find this stuff fascinating. 

[OldGoat]

33 minutes ago, Scholar Gypsy said:

I think this effect is because water is only let out at Denver at low tide.  Most of the time the tidal water is above the non tidal section and the V doors shut. So the whole structure is like a huge one way valve.  

 

When it is shut the water backs up all the way to Ely. Depends on amount of fresh water coming down the Cam, Lark, Little Ouse & Wissey.

 

Sorry I find this stuff fascinating. 

And why not!

Water management is quite a complicated art. If you look at the feed area for the Thames, there are hundreds of feed and considerations that need to be taken into consideration before it's all flushed out to sea.