Beta 43 ignition switch problem

[frahkn]

For the last few weeks I have had an intermittent problem with my ignition switch.

 

When I switch on everything is as usual (lights, warning buzzer etc) but when I turn from the "heating" position to "start", occasionally nothing happens. That is nothing at all - no clunks or other sounds. When I let the key return against the spring and then try again, all is well and the engine starts normally.

 

This morning it would not start after repeated attempts but a few seconds later my wife started it with no difficulty.

 

As I am certain that the battery is fine and there is no clunk sound, I wonder if the (15 year old) ignition barrel could be faulty. Is this likely and is there more which I could do to clarify the diagnosis?

 

Thanks.

[nicknorman]

It could be but equally it could be something else such as the starter solenoid, wiring etc. The only way to find out is to measure the voltage on the appropriate ignition terminal to battery negative. Obviously when you operate the keyswitch you’d expect the terminal to go to 12v if the switch is working properly. The terminal marked 17 on the switch is the one for the starter I think.

Edited June 19, 2018 by nicknorman

[ditchcrawler]

25 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

It could be but equally it could be something else such as the starter solenoid, wiring etc. The only way to find out is to measure the voltage on the appropriate ignition terminal to battery negative. Obviously when you operate the keyswitch you’d expect the terminal to go to 12v if the switch is working properly. The terminal marked 17 on the switch is the one for the starter I think.

Or even one of those loom plugs if there is one between the panel and the engine

[Sea Dog]

Immediate action drill - pull apart and properly reseat the  square plastic multi connector behind the panel.  They're verging on notorious for throwing up odd and intermittent symptoms.  When you put it back together, all nice and clean, put a tie wrap round it to keep it firmly together.  It might be totally innocent, but it ought to be ruled out before going more complex.

 

Edit: which is what DC referred to whilst I was typing!

Edited June 19, 2018 by Sea Dog

[Machpoint005]

21 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Immediate action drill - pull apart and properly reseat the  square plastic multi connector behind the panel.  They're verging on notorious for throwing up odd and intermittent symptoms.  When you put it back together, all nice and clean, put a tie wrap round it to keep it firmly together.  It might be totally innocent, but it ought to be ruled out before going more complex.

 

Edit: which is what DC referred to whilst I was typing!

^^What he said -- pretty much what I was going to suggest, based on bitter experience. The square(ish) multi connector on my Beta 43 sits right on top of the engine in an ideal place to vibrate loose.

The fact that this manifests as an "ignition switch problem" doesn't necessarily mean the actual problem is anywhere near the switch itself!

[ditchcrawler]

Mine is down the side near the mounts

 

[Bee]

Mine does odd things sometimes as well, almost certainly a connection somewhere. Also for the last 10 years it 'chirps' when the batteries are fully charged and the engine is running, tried everything to find out what and why but after 10 years I reckon it can't be too much to worry about.

[Eeyore]

32 minutes ago, Bee said:

Mine does odd things sometimes as well, almost certainly a connection somewhere. Also for the last 10 years it 'chirps' when the batteries are fully charged and the engine is running, tried everything to find out what and why but after 10 years I reckon it can't be too much to worry about.

Often caused by the buzzer “seeing” the difference in voltage between the two alternators? You could “design” a work around by having a dedicated buzzer on one alternator.

And back on topic - yes everything that has already been said about those multiway connectors and all the other connection is where you need to check first. PLUS, check the 40 amp fuse and holder for corrosion, just taking it out and putting it back again can get you out of trouble.

Then if it still plays up you can go back to the ignition switch.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Eeyore

[Machpoint005]

That's FIVE posters all agreeing within a 2-hour window. Might be a first for this forum!

[Bee]

You're ALL wrong - Its midges!

[frahkn]

Thanks all, I'm a RCR member so I may leave the initial problem solving to them (should it re-occur) as I am not very confident with pulling things apart and putting them together again.

 

In any event, I will report results.

[Sea Dog]

3 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

That's FIVE posters all agreeing within a 2-hour window. Might be a first for this forum!

Then I retract my post, so now it's only 4... 

 

and the others are all wrong. 

 

Oh bum, I've just realised that I've missed the 2 hour window, so you're still correct, my post still stands and we're all correct.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Sea Dog
Autocorrect bolleaux

[Dr Bob]

An even more stupid reason for this is the whole ignition switch rotating. Ours started doing it last summer (beta 43). The key would turn normally in the switch to the heater position but as soon as you turned it against the starter spring, the whole switch rotated, so it never started. You repeated it with slight upward pressure and no rotation, so it started. With ours then, just a simple tighten of the ring inside holding the switch in place sorted the problem. 

[Bee]

1 minute ago, Dr Bob said:

An even more stupid reason for this is the whole ignition switch rotating. Ours started doing it last summer (beta 43). The key would turn normally in the switch to the heater position but as soon as you turned it against the starter spring, the whole switch rotated, so it never started. You repeated it with slight upward pressure and no rotation, so it started. With ours then, just a simple tighten of the ring inside holding the switch in place sorted the problem. 

Tightening the ring often helps.

[Dr Bob]

3 minutes ago, Bee said:

Tightening the ring often helps.

My ring is always tight now!

Should I get my coat?

[Machpoint005]

20 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

>>> just a simple tighten of the ring inside holding the switch in place sorted the problem. 

 

19 minutes ago, Bee said:

Tightening the ring often helps.

 

15 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

My ring is always tight now!

It's always difficult to reach around the back...

[cuthound]

2 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

An even more stupid reason for this is the whole ignition switch rotating. Ours started doing it last summer (beta 43). The key would turn normally in the switch to the heater position but as soon as you turned it against the starter spring, the whole switch rotated, so it never started. You repeated it with slight upward pressure and no rotation, so it started. With ours then, just a simple tighten of the ring inside holding the switch in place sorted the problem. 

 

I only use the glow plugs when the weather is really cold (well below freezing). A Beta 43 will start within a couple of seconds of cranking without them.

[Dr Bob]

4 hours ago, Machpoint005 said:

 

 

It's always difficult to reach around the back...

I get Mrs Bob to hold it.

[frahkn]

On 19/06/2018 at 14:11, frahkn said:

For the last few weeks I have had an intermittent problem with my ignition switch.

 

When I switch on everything is as usual (lights, warning buzzer etc) but when I turn from the "heating" position to "start", occasionally nothing happens. That is nothing at all - no clunks or other sounds. When I let the key return against the spring and then try again, all is well and the engine starts normally.

 

This morning it would not start after repeated attempts but a few seconds later my wife started it with no difficulty.

 

As I am certain that the battery is fine and there is no clunk sound, I wonder if the (15 year old) ignition barrel could be faulty. Is this likely and is there more which I could do to clarify the diagnosis?

 

Thanks.

 I'm revisiting this because there is now a little more information which may aid diagnosis (though it doesn't mean much to me).

 

For the last 12 days the engine has started first time each morning.

 

This morning it wouldn't - there was nothing when I turned the key from 'heat' to 'start'.

 

When my wife returned from walking the dog I was getting the RCR details out. She tried the switch - started first time!

 

There is some vertical movement of the ignition key but the switch is not slipping in the panel.

[Tony Brooks]

How do you know its the switch?

 

Has anyone had a voltmeter on the switch start terminal while you operate the switch? If not that must be a very early check then repeat at the solenoid end. Infact it might be easier to try the solenoid end first.

 

Sticky brushes in the starter could break contact and prevent the solenoid pull in coil working and if so any noise you may get will be slight.

[frahkn]

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

How do you know its the switch?

 

Has anyone had a voltmeter on the switch start terminal while you operate the switch? If not that must be a very early check then repeat at the solenoid end. Infact it might be easier to try the solenoid end first.

 

Sticky brushes in the starter could break contact and prevent the solenoid pull in coil working and if so any noise you may get will be slight.

 

Tony,

 

I don't know it's the switch but I certainly hope it is (or an intervening connection) because the solenoid and starter are completely inaccessible. I know it's like searching for your keys under the street light but that's the way it is. 

 

I have a multimeter but there are a lot of wires on the back of the switch, how do I identify the start terminal?

Edited July 17, 2018 by frahkn
I know Nick says it's 17 but mine are not numbered!

[Tony Brooks]

Regrettably you have a Beta and the angle iron type engine foot often makes gaining access to the starter motor terminals very difficult but if you can see a  single thin wire on its own terminal on the starter then that's is the wire from the ignition switch. If you can get a multimeter onto the terminal (leaving the wire connected) and get someone to operate the switch that will tell you if the switch is supplying current to the motor. It may also tell you if there is  resistance in the switch or on the cable/multi-plug.  Note those "ifs".

 

Has the large multi-plug pins and sockets on the wring harness been checked for tightness and  cleanliness?

 

Have a look at this: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/MarineE06.html#The ignition switch it may help you identify the terminals on the switch.

 

Basically the terminal that usually has one thickish wire on it is the main feed. Then by turning the key to each position and finding which terminal then becomes live you can find out which terminal feeds what. This is probably a two man job with one to hold the instrument panel and work the switch while the other takes the voltage reading.

[Machpoint005]

Does the OP have a wiring diagram? My Beta manual (a youngster of only 15 years) includes several, and the manual might not be the version now available online?

[system 4-50]

The electrical diagrams in my Beta manual are incomprehensible and unhelpful.

[frahkn]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Regrettably you have a Beta and the angle iron type engine foot often makes gaining access to the starter motor terminals very difficult but if you can see a  single thin wire on its own terminal on the starter then that's is the wire from the ignition switch. If you can get a multimeter onto the terminal (leaving the wire connected) and get someone to operate the switch that will tell you if the switch is supplying current to the motor. It may also tell you if there is  resistance in the switch or on the cable/multi-plug.  Note those "ifs".

 

Has the large multi-plug pins and sockets on the wring harness been checked for tightness and  cleanliness?

 

Have a look at this: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/MarineE06.html#The ignition switch it may help you identify the terminals on the switch.

 

Basically the terminal that usually has one thickish wire on it is the main feed. Then by turning the key to each position and finding which terminal then becomes live you can find out which terminal feeds what. This is probably a two man job with one to hold the instrument panel and work the switch while the other takes the voltage reading.

 

Thanks Tony, the identification will help me.

 

My engine is hard against the left side of the boat and is partially covered by two (yes two) transverse bulkheads. This winter I have arranged to have the engine moved but at present the engine mountings are the least of my problems. The starter and to a lesser extent, the solenoid, just cannot be reached. Two mechanics have said that the cheapest solution, should the starter fail, would be to cut a hole in the side to replace it.