Have My Trojans Recovered? Too Late!!

[Richard10002]

In June 2015 I fitted 4 x Trojan T105s. In ignorance, (now resolved), I didn’t look after them properly, allowing them to run down to 50-40% SOC, and only charging once a week, sometimes twice. Anyway, their capacity fell to about 200Ah, (calculated using NASA BM2 for Ah used, and Smartgauge for SOC), and I took some fully charged Specific Gravity readings in Feb 2017, (see below). I decided they were at the end of their days.

 

I kept them going by charging mostly daily, no longer than 2 days, and eventually ordered 3 x Rolls S-160 from Tayna in Mid May. They weren’t in stock, but due in June, (I was actually supplied with 3 x Rolls S-170, 130Ah each, and fitted them yesterday). Anyway, since my new solar started working in April, the Trojans have been very fully charged on a daily basis and, shortly after ordering the Rolls batteries, I sensed there had been an increase in capacity, (perhaps 300+ Ah). I took an SG reading 23^rd May, and another one today. The Specific Gravity of 1 battery is/was as follows - all 4 batteries had similar readings and improvements - hope it makes sense. I used the Hydro Volt SG reader – the one with 2 spinning discs.

 

19/2/17 Cell 1 1.240 Cell 2 1.250 Cell 3 1.244

23/5/18 Cell 1 1.285 Cell 2 1.283 Cell 3 1.275

17/6/18 Cell 1 1.290 Cell 2 1.290 Cell 3 1.285

 

So now I have 4 x Trojan T105 which have “as new" SG readings, and which seemed to be increasing in capacity, so probably better than scrap.

 

Firstly, am I right with my assessment of the SG and what it means, (and what the low readings meant in Feb 2017). Secondly, what could I do with them? I don’t really need a second bank, and it would be a lot of work to create a secure space, and charging connections.

[MtB]

1 minute ago, Richard10002 said:

In June 2015 I fitted 4 x Trojan T105s. In ignorance, (now resolved), I didn’t look after them properly, allowing them to run down to 50-40% SOC, and only charging once a week, sometimes twice. Anyway, their capacity fell to about 200Ah, (calculated using NASA BM2 for Ah used, and Smartgauge for SOC), and I took some fully charged Specific Gravity readings in Feb 2017, (see below). I decided they were at the end of their days.

 

I kept them going by charging mostly daily, no longer than 2 days, and eventually ordered 3 x Rolls S-160 from Tayna in Mid May. They weren’t in stock, but due in June, (I was actually supplied with 3 x Rolls S-170, 130Ah each, and fitted them yesterday). Anyway, since my new solar started working in April, the Trojans have been very fully charged on a daily basis and, shortly after ordering the Rolls batteries, I sensed there had been an increase in capacity, (perhaps 300+ Ah). I took an SG reading 23^rd May, and another one today. The Specific Gravity of 1 battery is/was as follows - all 4 batteries had similar readings and improvements - hope it makes sense. I used the Hydro Volt SG reader – the one with 2 spinning discs.

 

19/2/17 Cell 1 1.240 Cell 2 1.250 Cell 3 1.244

23/5/18 Cell 1 1.285 Cell 2 1.283 Cell 3 1.275

17/6/18 Cell 1 1.290 Cell 2 1.290 Cell 3 1.285

 

So now I have 4 x Trojan T105 which have “as new" SG readings, and which seemed to be increasing in capacity, so probably better than scrap.

 

Firstly, am I right with my assessment of the SG and what it means, (and what the low readings meant in Feb 2017). Secondly, what could I do with them? I don’t really need a second bank, and it would be a lot of work to create a secure space, and charging connections.

 

I'd be interested in buying them from you! My Yuasas will NOT recover despite being furiously equalised by the solar every day... 

 

...or maybe I should check them again. That first reading still looks rather low however. 

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

Firstly, am I right with my assessment of the SG and what it means...

It certainly looks that way. Trojans can suffer a fair bit of abuse as you've seen for yourself.  As to what to do with them, could you return the Rolls?

[MtB]

 

Are youm going to Braunston Show this weekend?

 

Oh hang on, just noticed the date on the first reading... 

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Oh hang on, just noticed the date on the first reading... 

Yup, long and consistent charging appears to have successfully desulphated them

[dmr]

It is my belief (and experience) that you can treat Trojans pretty badly and still bring them back to good condition by repeated full charging and a bit of equalisation, looks like you have found the same.  Your SGs are just a little high so maybe the hydrometer is a bit out or the acid level a bit on the low side. My spinning disc hydrometer over-reads by about ".01"   1.27 reads as 1.28.

 

Anyway if you don't need them then sell them for a bit more than the scrap value. Are you moored on-line?.....stick a notice on the boat advertising them. How many cycles do you estimate they have done?

 

...............Dave

[MtB]

Hmmm..... just taken a hydrometer reading on one random cell from my bank. 

 

1.290. 

 

Blimey, has my bank self-healed as well....???!!!!

 

And another randomly chosen cell....

 

1.289.

 

Using the same refractometer I took all the original readings .

[WotEver]

38 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

1.290

Maybe your Yuasas are more Trojan-like than you first thought. 

[MtB]

It’s certainly looking that way. I’ll do a proper capacity check on them now I’ve calibrated my smartgauge correctly. 

 

Not until next week though, I’m off to braunston shortly. 

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

It certainly looks that way. Trojans can suffer a fair bit of abuse as you've seen for yourself.  As to what to do with them, could you return the Rolls?

I doubt it - I've fitted them and used them for a few days, and they have a few marks from the fitting process, plus there would likely be a restocking fee and the hassle of delivery. In addition, the Rolls fit my battery space and securing arrangements better than the Trojans, (not a reason for changing, but my rationale for keeping the Rolls :), particularly with a BSS inspection looming)

 

I suppose the idea of a 700Ah+ battery bank is quite attractive, and retaining 4 Trojans on the starboard side swim would help as ballast with a fairly permanent list to port. I guess I'll eventually find a welder to spot weld some retaining strips in a rectangle suitable for 4 x Trojans, so securing will be sorted in due course.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Are youm going to Braunston Show this weekend?

 

Oh hang on, just noticed the date on the first reading... 

No chance of me going to Braunston.

 

I dont go far from Stretford  Since bringing the boat to The Bridgewater in 2011, I've been as far as Dover Lock towards Wigan, and just past Warrington in the other direction. 

 

The first readings were 16 months ago, probably a few months after I noticed the degradation of capacity. Loads of equalising at 15.5V had no effect, and regular checks on capacity confirmed that they remained at about 200Ah, (rather than the nominal 450Ah when new). As I said, it was only a few weeks ago when I sensed and calculated an apparent increase in capacity, and took the Specific Gravitys. I took the last set of readings as a matter of interest, after fitting the new ones.

 

I have to admit that, sometime last year, before I got my 500w of solar in September, Smiley Pete suggested eeking them out over this summer, and see how they react to continuous daily charging to full and beyond.... seems he could have been right - but I am very impatient, and like new things   

 

As above, I'll keep hold of them for the time being, and think about creating a space for a second bank in parallel.

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

It is my belief (and experience) that you can treat Trojans pretty badly and still bring them back to good condition by repeated full charging and a bit of equalisation, looks like you have found the same.  Your SGs are just a little high so maybe the hydrometer is a bit out or the acid level a bit on the low side. My spinning disc hydrometer over-reads by about ".01"   1.27 reads as 1.28.

 

Anyway if you don't need them then sell them for a bit more than the scrap value. Are you moored on-line?.....stick a notice on the boat advertising them. How many cycles do you estimate they have done?

 

...............Dave

Yes... Trojan state 1.277 as the Specific Gravity for a fully charged battery at full capacity. The electrolyte level seems fine, but there is nothing to indicate the precise level required, so it could be low.

 

Rolls state that their FLA batteries are fully charged at full capacity with an SG of 1.265 - mine all read about 1.255 when I got them on board, and I've given them a full charge since - not easy to get at, so I haven't checked again - I would hope they would read just over 1.275 if there is a consistent error in the hydrometer.

[MtB]

56 minutes ago, Richard10002 said:

No chance of me going to Braunston.

 

I dont go far from Stretford  Since bringing the boat to The Bridgewater in 2011, I've been as far as Dover Lock towards Wigan, and just past Warrington in the other direction. 

 

The first readings were 16 months ago, probably a few months after I noticed the degradation of capacity. Loads of equalising at 15.5V had no effect, and regular checks on capacity confirmed that they remained at about 200Ah, (rather than the nominal 450Ah when new). As I said, it was only a few weeks ago when I sensed and calculated an apparent increase in capacity, and took the Specific Gravitys. I took the last set of readings as a matter of interest, after fitting the new ones.

 

I have to admit that, sometime last year, before I got my 500w of solar in September, Smiley Pete suggested eeking them out over this summer, and see how they react to continuous daily charging to full and beyond.... seems he could have been right - but I am very impatient, and like new things   

 

As above, I'll keep hold of them for the time being, and think about creating a space for a second bank in parallel.

 

Its almost creepy how closely our experiences match. One difference though, I had 560w of solar all through last summer equalising every day yet batts were still low on capacity through last winter. It’s only now I’ve thought to check my SGs however.  

 

I still I’ll need some trojans for another boat if you change your mind. 

[Dave_P]

3 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

In June 2015 I fitted 4 x Trojan T105s. In ignorance, (now resolved), I didn’t look after them properly, allowing them to run down to 50-40% SOC, and only charging once a week, sometimes twice. Anyway, their capacity fell to about 200Ah, (calculated using NASA BM2 for Ah used, and Smartgauge for SOC), and I took some fully charged Specific Gravity readings in Feb 2017, (see below). I decided they were at the end of their days.

 

I kept them going by charging mostly daily, no longer than 2 days, and eventually ordered 3 x Rolls S-160 from Tayna in Mid May. They weren’t in stock, but due in June, (I was actually supplied with 3 x Rolls S-170, 130Ah each, and fitted them yesterday). Anyway, since my new solar started working in April, the Trojans have been very fully charged on a daily basis and, shortly after ordering the Rolls batteries, I sensed there had been an increase in capacity, (perhaps 300+ Ah). I took an SG reading 23^rd May, and another one today. The Specific Gravity of 1 battery is/was as follows - all 4 batteries had similar readings and improvements - hope it makes sense. I used the Hydro Volt SG reader – the one with 2 spinning discs.

 

19/2/17 Cell 1 1.240 Cell 2 1.250 Cell 3 1.244

23/5/18 Cell 1 1.285 Cell 2 1.283 Cell 3 1.275

17/6/18 Cell 1 1.290 Cell 2 1.290 Cell 3 1.285

 

So now I have 4 x Trojan T105 which have “as new" SG readings, and which seemed to be increasing in capacity, so probably better than scrap.

 

Firstly, am I right with my assessment of the SG and what it means, (and what the low readings meant in Feb 2017). Secondly, what could I do with them? I don’t really need a second bank, and it would be a lot of work to create a secure space, and charging connections.

Will be interesting to see if you get better answers on here or on facebook ;-)

[nicknorman]

2 hours ago, Richard10002 said:

Yes... Trojan state 1.277 as the Specific Gravity for a fully charged battery at full capacity. The electrolyte level seems fine, but there is nothing to indicate the precise level required, so it could be low.

 

Rolls state that their FLA batteries are fully charged at full capacity with an SG of 1.265 - mine all read about 1.255 when I got them on board, and I've given them a full charge since - not easy to get at, so I haven't checked again - I would hope they would read just over 1.275 if there is a consistent error in the hydrometer.

The correct electrolyte level is published in one of Trojan’s online document and should be 1/8” below the well inside the filler. I think if you top them up, the sgs will become more like the nominal 1.277. Although it you top them up and immediately check the sgs they will be low until the electrolyte is all properly mixed.

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by nicknorman

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Dave_P said:

Will be interesting to see if you get better answers on here or on facebook ?

?

 

None will be better or worse, or right or wrong. They will all contribute to a pot of info and advice, which will help me to reach a decision. On Saturday I was going to scrap them. On Sunday I was thinking I ought to sell them or use them. Today I am considering adding them to my bank. The jury is out

28 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The correct electrolyte level is published in one of Trojan’s online document and should be 1/8” below the well inside the filler. I think if you top them up, the sgs will become more like the nominal 1.277. 

Agreed... but it isnt easy to judge 1/8" by eye. I have topped them up too much in the past, and they needed to bubble off a bit before being correct.

 

It would be much better if there was a little 1/8" tag on the bottom of the well -some batteries have them, and some dont.

[Richard10002]

As a matter of interest, apropos nothing, and always seeking comment

 

Passed my BSS today, so can start thinking about the old Trojans, (T 105s). They've been sat on the bank connected to nothing since about 18th June, (5 weeks). Checked the SGs and volts today. I havent added any water, and gave them all a bit of movement to distribute the electrolyte.

 

Results are similar for each battery, and the following is one of them:

 

Voltage: 6.35  SGs: Cell 1 - 1.270 Cell 2 - 1.274 Cell 3 - 1.273

 

They had been fitted since June 2015, so around 156 weeks, and I'm on board 3 or 4 days a week, charging say every 2nd day..... so perhaps 300 cycles if that's how you calculate cycles.

 

Toying with having them as a second bank.... but would I have to wire them separately to the various charging sources, (alternator, solar, Sterling Pro Charge Ultra, Sterling inverter charger. I'm guessing lots of wires, and voltage sensitive relays. Also, how would they be wired to the supply to the boat?

 

Or could I just create my 2 x 12V "battery pairs", and connect them in parallel with the new bank of Rolls batteries, (my guess is that this isnt really a sensible option).

[nicknorman]

Those sgs and voltage seem pretty good. I think I would just wire them in parallel with the existing new bank. Maybe via an isolator if you like.

[smileypete]

On 18/06/2018 at 13:51, Richard10002 said:

No chance of me going to Braunston.

 

I dont go far from Stretford  Since bringing the boat to The Bridgewater in 2011, I've been as far as Dover Lock towards Wigan, and just past Warrington in the other direction. 

 

The first readings were 16 months ago, probably a few months after I noticed the degradation of capacity. Loads of equalising at 15.5V had no effect, and regular checks on capacity confirmed that they remained at about 200Ah, (rather than the nominal 450Ah when new). As I said, it was only a few weeks ago when I sensed and calculated an apparent increase in capacity, and took the Specific Gravitys. I took the last set of readings as a matter of interest, after fitting the new ones.

 

I have to admit that, sometime last year, before I got my 500w of solar in September, Smiley Pete suggested eeking them out over this summer, and see how they react to continuous daily charging to full and beyond.... seems he could have been right - but I am very impatient, and like new things   

 

As above, I'll keep hold of them for the time being, and think about creating a space for a second bank in parallel.

Best thing would be to learn to effectively charge and effectively monitor whatever lead acid batts you have, or you'll be better off with cheap disposable leisures replaced every year or two.

 

I guess that the 15.5V at deep winter temps was hardly tickling the Trojans, plus it was only for relatively short intervals. Good to hear they're performing much better, if they're surplus to requirements maybe someone else will pay around half of retail for them, still a lot better than scrap value.

Edited July 27, 2018 by smileypete