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Anchor advice please


Stuart Maddock

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2 hours ago, WotEver said:

No reason why it should. That is simply the strongly held opinion shared by two posters. 

 

2 hours ago, WotEver said:

No reason why it should. That is simply the strongly held opinion shared by two posters. 

Who are of course free to hold and express their opinions.  However, there are many others who would not be quite so dogmatic, me for one. The choice of anchor purchase is not quite as much of a cut and dried exercise as is sometimes portrayed, so in the final analysis it is a totally personal choice which you have to make after doing your own research. 

 

In reality, in many emergency situations on rivers, I would. suggest that a large number of boaters would not be able to get an anchor out in time to make a difference, no matter what lump is at the end of the anchor warp.

 

Howard

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13 minutes ago, howardang said:

 

Who are of course free to hold and express their opinions.  However, there are many others who would not be quite so dogmatic, me for one. The choice of anchor purchase is not quite as much of a cut and dried exercise as is sometimes portrayed, so in the final analysis it is a totally personal choice which you have to make after doing your own research. 

 

In reality, in many emergency situations on rivers, I would. suggest that a large number of boaters would not be able to get an anchor out in time to make a difference, no matter what lump is at the end of the anchor warp.

 

Howard

You are not suggesting it is a waste of time carrying an anchor, or deploying an anchor.?

I would have the 30Kg Mantus, if I was regularly going to NB on risky rivers, but tbh, I'd probably have a proper boat.

I am not sure if I could handle a 3oKg anchor without a bow roller and windlass We are now in "serious money" territory.

Edited by LadyG
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17 minutes ago, howardang said:

In reality, in many emergency situations on rivers, I would. suggest that a large number of boaters would not be able to get an anchor out in time to make a difference, no matter what lump is at the end of the anchor warp.

Then they are blithering idiots for not having it set up ready to deploy before casting off!

 

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On 12/06/2018 at 23:06, Detling said:

The chain is as important as the anchor, aim for at least 10 meters of chain it will help the anchor dig in when required and not bounce along.

With a traditional anchor, eg CQR, this is absolutely spot on, your chain is effectively increasing the mass of the anchor. 

However, the modern anchor is thought to act in such a way, that the effect is , less ............  effective. My take on this is that you increase the anchor mass, and the chain is used to hold the mass of the anchor as it beds down. My explanation is not scientific, I am ready to be shot down in flames.

In summation, imho.  bigger is better.

Innovation works.

Money is in limited supply, always has been.

Modern anchors: in extremis get the biggest you can handle. The chain is there to deal with the shock forces.

Edited by LadyG
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5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Then they are blithering idiots for not having it set up ready to deploy before casting off!

 

Of course, but there is more to the subject than just what type of equipment is better than another. It is a sad fact, but true, that there is not generally the same interest in "boatmanship" in its broadest sense, not only about anchor work. This is markedly different from the interest shown by many lumpy water leisure boaters who, by and large, take an interest in using their boat safely and efficiently, and take an interest in increasing their basic knowledge. I am not for one minute saying that yachties are paragons of virtue but From my perspective, there is much interest taken on the cut with engines, and electrics but much less on handling the boat itself, including anchor work. 

 

In the meantime, the input from those who have something to say and can speak from experience is valuable and provides a great service but it should be listened to at times with a healthy scepticism.

 

Howard

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9 hours ago, LadyG said:

.

 

Danforth is useless in emergency conditions. It's something from the 18th century, do not buy a Danforth for an emergency anchor.

 

You are entitled to your view about Danforths although if used properly they can be effective, and indeed have been used for many years in the offshore oil industry, although not so much nowadays. However, just a small corection if I may. The Danforth anchor was invented during WW2, not the 18th century.

 

Howard

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8 hours ago, howardang said:

I am not for one minute saying that yachties are paragons of virtue but From my perspective, there is much interest taken on the cut with engines, and electrics but much less on handling the boat itself, including anchor work

To be fair Howard, yachties use an anchor pretty regularly and the boat itself is equipped to deploy and recover a suitable anchor, so "anchor work" is a thing.  For virtually all narrowboats (in case there is an exception to prove the rule) "anchor work" simply doesn't exist as the anchor is purely an emergency brake in boat with little no consideration made for its deployment or recovery.  Most would agree that recovery is a bonus - and would agree on very little else!  I'd offer that there's no lack of interest, more a lack of concensus based on a paucity of real world emergency anchoring experience in a narrowboat. The three pages of this thread appear to support that, but a search would reveal lots more pages in a similar vein, so at least there's no lack of interest!

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Any thoughts on the effect of the stretch of the rope in absorbing the shock load as the anchor bites? I cave and climb quiet a lot, so I know that climbing ropes in particular are designed to have a lot of stretch in them. As the weight of a falling climber comes on the rope it stretches, which reduces the peak loads on both the climber and the slings and gear anchoring it to the rock to something survivable for the climber and that won't break the rope, or rip the gear out of the rock. A rope made out of something non-stretchy like dyneema would put such a high shock load on the climber that it would kill them and likely break itself, despite having a much higher static breaking load than a nylon climbing rope. I've not seen rope stretch discussed at all in the many anchor threads here. I believe a stretchy rope that reduced the peak force on the anchor would make it less likely to just rip out of the river bed as it tries to set and reduce the risk of it ripping the attachment point off the boat. This would make the rope as important as the chain in a successful anchor system.

 

Discuss!

 

Jen

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23 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

To be fair Howard, yachties use an anchor pretty regularly and the boat itself is equipped to deploy and recover a suitable anchor, so "anchor work" is a thing.  For virtually all narrowboats (in case there is an exception to prove the rule) "anchor work" simply doesn't exist as the anchor is purely an emergency brake in boat with little no consideration made for its deployment or recovery.  Most would agree that recovery is a bonus - and would agree on very little else!  I'd offer that there's no lack of interest, more a lack of concensus based on a paucity of real world emergency anchoring experience in a narrowboat. The three pages of this thread appear to support that, but a search would reveal lots more pages in a similar vein, so at least there's no lack of interest!

Fair point, but I was talking about old fashioned  seamanship in general including, but not limited to, anchor work. Maybe instead of calling it Anchor Work, we could better describe it as Confidence & Familiarity?  Of course, the use of anchors on rivers is 99% confined to an emergency situation, with recovery well down the list,  so even  more need, in that case, to be confident that their use will be effective. I totally agree that there is an interest in the subject on this forum, but I suspect it is much less so in the wider world outside CWF, and yes it does exist!

 

Howard

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8 hours ago, howardang said:

You are entitled to your view about Danforths although if used properly they can be effective, and indeed have been used for many years in the offshore oil industry, although not so much nowadays

Indeed - at one time the Danforth was the 'Bees-Knees' and considered to be a superb anchor (when used as an anchor, and not a brake), however, as in most things as our knowledge and technology improves we find ways of improving product performance.

 

Over the last century anchors have gone thru' a huge development phase resulting in the latest offerings (Manson, Mantus, etc etc) for which Lloyds register of shipping have had to create a new category of approval "Super High Holding Power" for the latest generation of anchors.

 

Anchors like the CQR, Bruce & Delta (3rd generation anchors) are classified as 'High Holding Power'

 

I cannot find any Lloyds rating for the Danforth.

 

The 'standard' Naval anchor is a 'stockless' anchor (seen hanging off the front of all Navy vessels). To be rated HHP (High Holding Power) an anchor must perform (hold) twice the weight of a stockless anchor. To be rated SHHP (Super High Holding Power) an anchor must perform (hold) the anchor must hold 4x the weight of a stockless anchor.

 

https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/classification.php

 

https://www.sail-world.com/Australia/Mansons-Supreme-Anchor-Super-Status-from-Lloyds/-42993?source=google.co.uk

 

Anchors can also be tested against others with the desired standard; should they hold at least the same load in comparison, this then is accepted as equivalent. Its designer confident that superior performance would be displayed, the Rocna anchor was tested by RINA against a New Zealand built copy which already had SHHP classification from Lloyd’s Register. In clay, the Rocna 25 recorded pulls at an average of 6,250 kgf, while the larger Manson Supreme 27 kg managed an average of 4,665 kgf; in soft mud, the Rocna averaged 635 kgf versus the copy’s 560 kgf. In the same locations stockless anchors four times the weight were recording pulls a quarter of the Rocna’s results. Unfortunately such test results are rarely published so inspecting the basis of classification can be difficult.

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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22 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

Any thoughts on the effect of the stretch of the rope in absorbing the shock load as the anchor bites?

That is why you have the recommended scope of (a minimum) of 3:1 for chain.

The scope of the chain will lift/fall as the boat 'pulls' but the additional weight of the chian is needed to keep the 'pull' on the anchor parallel to the 'sea bed'.

 

The shorter the 'scope' the lower the holding power - an interesting table (source is a US Motor Boat Magazine) I don't know its accuracy but its a good discussion item)

 

Image result for anchor scope

 

Image result for anchor scope

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1 hour ago, Sea Dog said:

To be fair Howard, yachties use an anchor pretty regularly and the boat itself is equipped to deploy and recover a suitable anchor, so "anchor work" is a thing.  For virtually all narrowboats (in case there is an exception to prove the rule) "anchor work" simply doesn't exist as the anchor is purely an emergency brake in boat with little no consideration made for its deployment or recovery.  Most would agree that recovery is a bonus - and would agree on very little else!  I'd offer that there's no lack of interest, more a lack of concensus based on a paucity of real world emergency anchoring experience in a narrowboat. The three pages of this thread appear to support that, but a search would reveal lots more pages in a similar vein, so at least there's no lack of interest!

Sea Dog

I agree with you re lack of training or information on a anchor. I have spent around three days on this subject and all the training courses for Narrowboats I have found there is no mention of an anchor in their safety equipment. I did ask a chandlers located in a marina that is based on the Trent and asked them what anchor they recommend for a 50 foot narrowboat going onto the River Trent. They recommended the Brittany which is of a Danford design. I asked why and the person I spoke to gave a good explanation which I would not disagree with.

 

 

 

 

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There are a few videos on Youtube comparing anchors, educational as much as scientific. Interesting to note that one test indicates that "copies" are not as good as originals, .

One size does not fit all because one needs to select an anchor which is likely to set first time, every time and that is is some requirement!

The tiny T cleat on the average NB  is not going to do the job. A strong anchor point is needed, it's real engineering. 

The size of your boat will limit the choice of anchors which meet your demands. Your wallet and your storage facilities  are other, identifiable variables.

Edited by LadyG
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7 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I'd be interested to hear the reasoning behind a Danforth.

Hi

There is no point in posting this because it is there opinion which I am sure will result in further debate why they are wrong.

 

Re: This is the only one they stock. I did not ask them if they stocked any other type of anchor.

 

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

It is always interesting to hear the 'other sides' thoughts - they may know something I don't and I could learn something.

My boat is on the Trent so it is useful to 'compare notes'.

With all due respect Alan, it may be that you have very forthright views that don't encourage debate. Maybe a touch less dogmatism might encourage other views? Just a thought. :)

 

Howard

 

 

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I am perfectly willing to challenge even the most senior cwdf person, if I have reason to debate.  

Alan De is usually correct, but no one is infallible, regardless, debate is education.

Edited by LadyG
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7 minutes ago, luggsy said:

If you want a anchor you can store you won't get better than a fortress, if you want one that will stop you get a fortress 

It depends, gut feeling tells me something is wrong with that statement:)

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13 minutes ago, luggsy said:

If you want a anchor you can store you won't get better than a fortress, if you want one that will stop you get a fortress 

Hi

 

Check this link posted above https://www.petersmith.net.nz/boat-anchors/independent-performance-testing.php

Test design

Anchors of approximately 15 kg (35 lb) were selected, mostly steel but unfortunately including a few with part or whole aluminium construction. The aluminium Fortress FX‑37 Danforth-type chosen is relatively large compared to the other anchors tested, a size that would weigh in at over 25 kg (55 lb) if its aluminium was swapped to steel. Aluminium is weaker than steel, especially when compared to high strength grades: no less than two Fortresses were damaged and put out of action during this testing.

 

 

NavX Corp Fortress FX‑37 Alu­minium 21.9 Generally held as much tension as we could throw at it. Was slightly damaged when pulled over 5,000lb. Excellent performance.
Edited by Steve Manc
added further info
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10 minutes ago, luggsy said:

If you want a anchor you can store you won't get better than a fortress, if you want one that will stop you get a fortress 

It's well up there.Funnily enough, a Fortress is a member of that unjustly derided anchor family er the Danforth!

 

Howard:cheers:

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