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Anchor advice please


Stuart Maddock

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Stand by for loads of conflicting advice all based around controlled anchoring (and subsequently weighing) for yachts and cruisers in a tideway.  I've passed exams in that and I'd offer that it's virtually useless to the average narrowboater. Very little of what you read (either in this thread, if you search the site for the many previous similar questions, or if you study elsewhere) will be relevant to chucking out an emergency brake on a river in a Narrowboat with no dedicated facility for deployment or recovery.  If you're intending to do the Thames, there is guidance as to what the river authority require you to carry - I'd suggest you might as well comply with that and hope you don't need it.  Good luck! :boat:

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6 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Stand by for loads of conflicting advice all based around controlled anchoring (and subsequently weighing) for yachts and cruisers in a tideway.  I've passed exams in that and I'd offer that it's virtually useless to the average narrowboater. Very little of what you read (either in this thread, if you search the site for the many previous similar questions, or if you study elsewhere) will be relevant to chucking out an emergency brake on a river in a Narrowboat with no dedicated facility for deployment or recovery.  If you're intending to do the Thames, there is guidance as to what the river authority require you to carry - I'd suggest you might as well comply with that and hope you don't need it.  Good luck! :boat:

Below is the PLA's current guidance for cruisers - a bit less stringent than what they insisted on for the pageant (15m chain + 35m line). There's also a section on this site for NBs, but that doesn't contain much info.  I am sure there is another note on the PLA website that suggests 10+25, but I can't find it. 

 

The other really important point is that the fixing point on the boat needs to be really secure. The worst case for the scenario Sea Dog describes is bringing to a sudden stop a 20 tonne boat doing say 8 mph over the ground.

https://www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Cruising

 

[ETA: see also this: http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb2of2013-dangerous-notdeployinganchorswhenbrokendown1.pdf]

Edited by Scholar Gypsy
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Nobody wants to answer this for fear of being shot down.  The first time I went on a river I researched anchors and concluded I needed at least 4.  You need two different designs depending on the river bed - rocky or muddy, and each in 2 sizes so you have one small enough to be able to recover and a much bigger one to hold the boat when the river is dangerously in flood etc etc.  But as mine is a narrowboat on inland waters and I only boat on rivers in easy conditions then if you can safely deploy and ideally recover a 20kg danforth style that is what I would get, together with 7 to 10m of 10mm chain and heavy nylon rope.  But I do not guarantee it will work in all cases.  In my case I never go on the river if it is well into the orange and rising, if you do then ignore the above.  But at the end of the day, it’s your decision.

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8 hours ago, Sea Dog said:

Stand by for loads of conflicting advice all based around controlled anchoring (and subsequently weighing) for yachts and cruisers in a tideway.  I've passed exams in that and I'd offer that it's virtually useless to the average narrowboater. Very little of what you read (either in this thread, if you search the site for the many previous similar questions, or if you study elsewhere) will be relevant to chucking out an emergency brake on a river in a Narrowboat with no dedicated facility for deployment or recovery.  If you're intending to do the Thames, there is guidance as to what the river authority require you to carry - I'd suggest you might as well comply with that and hope you don't need it.  Good luck! :boat:

Yes quite so!! Sea dog is correct there is no definitive answer and rivers do differ. My boat was part of the Queens Jubilee pageant thingy and as a consequence the owner had the anchor and stuff comply to the letter with the PLA advice and it has a pucker solidly welded anchor point.......but I suggest that what most people fail to carry for if the engine fails above a weir on a fast flowing river is a spare pair of Underwear!!

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1 hour ago, Chewbacka said:

Nobody wants to answer this for fear of being shot down.  The first time I went on a river I researched anchors and concluded I needed at least 4.  You need two different designs depending on the river bed - rocky or muddy, and each in 2 sizes so you have one small enough to be able to recover and a much bigger one to hold the boat when the river is dangerously in flood etc etc.  But as mine is a narrowboat on inland waters and I only boat on rivers in easy conditions then if you can safely deploy and ideally recover a 20kg danforth style that is what I would get, together with 7 to 10m of 10mm chain and heavy nylon rope.  But I do not guarantee it will work in all cases.  In my case I never go on the river if it is well into the orange and rising, if you do then ignore the above.  But at the end of the day, it’s your decision.

Wise words. On a narrowboat an anchor is a last ditch all else fails sort of thing. Prevention is better than cure, so keeping the engine and drive in good condition and the fuel clean and water free is a very good idea. Stay off the rivers when rising in the orange. A narrowboat is a heavy thing by the usual standards of pleasure boating and stopping one in a fast flowing river is asking a lot from the sort of anchors they typically carry. Get the heaviest anchor you can lift, with plenty of strong chain and thick rope on to a good anchor point. A T stud can be ripped off. I run a rope through one of the well deck scupper holes and around the side in the absence of a dedicated anchor point as a backup to the T stud when the anchor is set up ready. Assume you won't get the anchor back when you come to set off again, or are rescued. If you do it will be a bonus. My boating regularly takes in rivers, including the Don and Trent.

Never had to use one in anger. Hope I never do.

 

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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On 13/06/2018 at 06:57, Scholar Gypsy said:

Below is the PLA's current guidance for cruisers - a bit less stringent than what they insisted on for the pageant (15m chain + 35m line). There's also a section on this site for NBs, but that doesn't contain much info.  I am sure there is another note on the PLA website that suggests 10+25, but I can't find it. 

 

The other really important point is that the fixing point on the boat needs to be really secure. The worst case for the scenario Sea Dog describes is bringing to a sudden stop a 20 tonne boat doing say 8 mph over the ground.

https://www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Cruising

9

[ETA: see also this: http://www.pla.co.uk/assets/sb2of2013-dangerous-notdeployinganchorswhenbrokendown1.pdf]

I am in tbe market for an anchor, chain and rope  for the River Trent. My narrowboat is 50 feet long and 6 feet 10 inches wide.

 

I have checked the Boating On The Thames link above,  under Vessel  and Equipment:  the recommendation for the River Thames  is 12kg anchor, chain of 5 meters of 6mm short link chain and 25m of 12mm rope. Having read the information I have taken this includes narrowboats.

 

I have spoken with two chandlers and both have given me different recommendations.

 

1st said 14kg anchor, 8 meters chain and 25 meters rope. 

 

2nd said 16kg anchor, 7.5 meters chain and 15 meters rope.

 

I have spoken to the company who send out an engineer to people who subscribe to it  when broken down. One of their engineers recommended a 35kg anchor !

 

Anchor.com which is USA based. Their chart which goes up to 49 feet suggest 44lb / 20kg.

 

I have looked at the Danforth Chart and sadly I don't understand it.

 

Grrr any help would be helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Its not the size (weight) but :

 

1) The anchor design (Danforth being very poor)

2) The length of chain (ideally 3-5 x the water depth

3) the amount of rope you plan (if not 100% chain)

 

A 7kg Fortress anchor will outperform (in most 'bottoms') a 20kg Danforth, but will cost 5x the price.

 

As a generalisation Cheap anchors tend to give poor performance, expensive anchors perform well

 

Do you want an anchor that works, or just so you can say you have one ?

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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Thanks for the replies. I want an anchor to keep me and the boat safe if it is required.

 

If I purchase to cover the River Thames and using the ratio 4 x length to 1 x depth.

 

Using the River Thames recommendations as above  it would be an anchor of x weight with 30 meters of chain and rope of which it must include 5 meters x  6mm or more of chain, the rope is 12mm or more  and the anchor of 12kg or more.

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

Thanks for the replies. I want an anchor to keep me and the boat safe if it is required.

 

If I purchase to cover the River Thames and using the ratio 4 x length to 1 x depth.

 

Using the River Thames recommendations as above  it would be an anchor of x weight with 30 meters of chain and rope of which it must include 5 meters x  6mm or more of chain, the rope is 12mm or more  and the anchor of 12kg or more.

 

 

 

 

 

If using 100% chain you should have 3 to 4 times (minimum) water depth

If using 50/50 chain and rope then 2x water depth of chain and 5x water depth of rope

If using 100% rope (+ a couple of metres of chain) then use 10x water depth of rope.

 

You should deploy all of your chain / rope as that is how an anchor works, the anchor must lie correctly on the bottom and the chain / rope form a catenary to take up a big curve. It is the weight of the chain that holds the anchor in the correct position.

 

Most narrowboaters buy a Danforth anchor because :

1) It is cheap

2) It folds up small to fit in a locker

 

It is better to get a better performance anchor (Fortress, Mantus, Manson, etc etc) and pay the cost. A £300 / £500 anchor is a small price to pay to save a £xx,xxx boat from going over the weir.

 

One of my boats is based on the Trent and every time I pass the weir at Cromwell Lock I remember the 10 Soldiers from the Parachute Regiment whose boat went over the weir and they lost their lives - what cost can you put against that.

 

A couple of years ago I was at Cromwell just leaving the visitors mooring when  a NB engine failed and he was drifting towards the weir-dolphins, he was fortunate enough to get the anchor deployed, it didn't hold, he re-deployed and this time it held and he was less than a 100 yards from the top of the weir - brown trouser time - two boats (including us) tried to come alongside and get a rope to them but they were 'thrashing about' so much in the flow that it took 6 attempts (3 for each boat) before we succeeded, we towed him back to Kings marina.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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32 minutes ago, Steve Manc said:

Thanks for the replies. I want an anchor to keep me and the boat safe if it is required.

 

If I purchase to cover the River Thames and using the ratio 4 x length to 1 x depth.

 

Using the River Thames recommendations as above  it would be an anchor of x weight with 30 meters of chain and rope of which it must include 5 meters x  6mm or more of chain, the rope is 12mm or more  and the anchor of 12kg or more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Given you are planning a summer trip on The Thames meandering along at 0.25 milea an hour, could you explain in detail the exact risk you hope an anchor will protect you from? 

 

Coz I can't think of any!

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15 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Given you are planning a summer trip on The Thames meandering along at 0.25 milea an hour, could you explain in detail the exact risk you hope an anchor will protect you from? 

 

Coz I can't think of any!

 

I think you have misread the OP :

 

2 hours ago, Steve Manc said:

I am in tbe market for an anchor, chain and rope  for the River Trent. My narrowboat is 50 feet long and 6 feet 10 inches wide.

Where there are weirs and there is a flow, and even in the Summer it can be in flood condition a couple of days after Thunderstorms in Staffordshire / Derbyshire

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I suspect that so few narrowboats have actually deployed an anchor in an emergency that there is not a significant body of knowledge available,so as Seadog said, most knowledge comes from the controlled anchor deployment on seagoing sailing boats.

 

I always have an anchor ready on the rivers but mtb makes a good point, we narrowboaters are mostly often out when the rivers are not flowing hard and after an engine failure can drift to the side. With a bit more flow it will probably be a controlled collision with the bank on a bend. If near a weir it may be a controlled collision with whatever is there to protect the weir, so there are only a few places and situations were it will be best to do an emergency deployment of the anchor, and in a few of those there just won't be time so you're doomed anyway. Obviously if you routinely do the tidal Thames then its very different, and I have met a surprising number of boaters who have had engine failures on the tideway.

 

Then there is the big subject of back of boat or front of boat deployment with some people believing a back of boat deployment in significant flow could submerge the counter, but a downstream front of boat deployment having the extra hazard of swinging the boat.

 

.............Dave

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

I think you have misread the OP :

 

Where there are weirs and there is a flow, and even in the Summer it can be in flood condition a couple of days after Thunderstorms in Staffordshire / Derbyshire

 

I didn't read the OP.

 

I read the post I quoted and replied to, which specifically says he wants an anchor for The Thames. Twice!

 

And only an idiot would cruise the Trent in flood conditions, anchor or not.

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

I always have an anchor ready on the rivers but mtb makes a good point, we narrowboaters are mostly often out when the rivers are not flowing hard and after an engine failure can drift to the side. With a bit more flow it will probably be a controlled collision with the bank on a bend. If near a weir it may be a controlled collision with whatever is there to protect the weir,

I take it you have never put that to the test on the Trent.

 

I reported a couple of years ago where a narrowboat (on the Trent) didn't have the power or steerage to get across the flow into the lock-cut & ended up 'sideways' onto the dolphins and the flow actually rolled the Narrowboat UNDER the dolphins and it went over the weor, the Dolphins are not really designed to work with NBs

 

I have sailed / cruised 1,000s of sea miles, and I am more apprehensive about the dangers of the River Trent, the River dangers are vastly underestimated, folks come off the canals and it comes as a bit of a shock when you hit a River with a flow, and even a tidal section, and the River has more power than your engine does.

 

How can folks who have not experienced it 'at its worse' compare it to the "Thames in Summer doing 0.25mph"

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I read the post I quoted and replied to, which specifically says he wants an anchor for The Thames.

He actually said (abbreviated) "if I buy an anchor to Thames requirements"

He has not said on any occasion that he wishes to boat on the Thames.

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25 minutes ago, LadyG said:

11.4kg Mantus, 10m certified 8mm chain plus 30m 18mm anchorplait.

On a trip out earlier in the year (on the Cat) anchored up for the night, middle of the night the anchor drag alarm went off so upped-anchor motored back to where we wanted to be, dropped anchor and as the anchor set, the 'jolt' snapped the windlass off its mountings, a god-almighty rattle and clanging as 160 metres of 10 mm chain went over the bow roller, fortunately the bitter-end was attached. Managed to get the chain-hook in and sat back to weigh-up the situation.

 

It was a case of hand-balling almost 200 metres of 10mm chain (weighing approximately 2kgs per metre) up in 10 metres of water (so a constant 20kgs) and then a 30Kg Mantus anchor, so the last lift was 50kgs, with half-asleep crew trying to keep the boat on-station.

Talk about an aching back.

 

Our 'New' 30kg Mantus as it arrived from the Agent in Orkney

 

 

IMG_20170130_142240.jpg

IMG_20170130_142539.jpg

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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As was pointed out in post no. 4, there is much conflicting advice available on this forum about anchors and anchoring, mostly given by well meaning canal boaters who have never actually used an anchor for real, and I suspect many of them have looked for advice from others with similar lack of experience. I suggest that the best you can do is to do as much research as you can looking at as many aspects as you can - anchor type/weights, rodes and boat strong points, make up of the river bottom, etc. and then make what you consider is the best choice, knowing you have done all you can.

 

Good luck, and try not to let the sometimes conflicting or confusing advice on this forum cloud your decision.

 

Howard

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37 minutes ago, howardang said:

As was pointed out in post no. 4, there is much conflicting advice available on this forum about anchors and anchoring, mostly given by well meaning canal boaters who have never actually used an anchor for real, and I suspect many of them have looked for advice from others with similar lack of experience. I suggest that the best you can do is to do as much research as you can looking at as many aspects as you can - anchor type/weights, rodes and boat strong points, make up of the river bottom, etc. and then make what you consider is the best choice, knowing you have done all you can.

 

Good luck, and try not to let the sometimes conflicting or confusing advice on this forum cloud your decision.

 

Howard

But also much advice from Anchoring experts who maybe have almost zero narrowboat experience?  I have assisted with several controlled anchorings of sailing boats, but would not have a clue of exactly what to expect if I had to anchor my narrowboat in an emergency. I have seen a narrowboat on a slack centreline in a heavy flow and seen what happens when that line runs out of slack!

 

...............Dave

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21 minutes ago, dmr said:

But also much advice from Anchoring experts who maybe have almost zero narrowboat experience?  I have assisted with several controlled anchorings of sailing boats, but would not have a clue of exactly what to expect if I had to anchor my narrowboat in an emergency. I have seen a narrowboat on a slack centreline in a heavy flow and seen what happens when that line runs out of slack!

 

...............Dave

I think your involvement with anchoring, albeit offshore, will have at least given you some thing to draw upon if ever you had to anchor a canal boat in a hurry, which is more than most on here can claim to have done - myself included. In my mind it highlights the issue of expecting a forum like this to be totally made up of experts, which it isn't. It is a group of boaters with widely differing viewpoints and expeience and although some      

are happy to offer opinions on every subject under the sun, in the end we have to make up our own minds which ones to take with the proverbial pinch of salt.:boat:

 

Howard

Edited by howardang
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