How to estimate the age of my converted ex-working boat hull?

[You cannot be Sirius]

Hi all,

 

I have a 70' boat that has a fibreglass upper built on to an old working boat hull. It has a traditional wooden rudder and tiller (elum) attached to the stern. It is registered on the CRT website as being from 1972. It is prop driven and is fitted with a Lister ST3 engine (1977) and LH150 gearbox.

 

Could somebody suggest an estimate as to how old this boat could be? The image that I've uploaded shows a diesel filling point (original or an addition?) to the left of where the elum attached to the stern. Were these type of craft being produced in the 1970s or is the 1972 date on the CRT website a conversion date?

 

 I'm just generally interested in the history of my boat and wondered whether anyone had some knowledge to pass on?

 

Cheers,

Steve

[RLWP]

Pictures of the bow will be much more helpful

 

Richard

[You cannot be Sirius]

Here you go. I can get better photos later this afternoon.

[X Alan W]

I know that Barry Jenkins  built at least 2 leisure boats in the early mld 80'swith butty style stern ends they had steel cabins though Dont know if he built any with GRP cabins  the 2 I know of where "Rosie" & my friends boat "Kestrel" fitted with a 3cyl Ruston & sold a while back by Sawley Marina.

[RLWP]

OK, I didn't phrase that very well. 

 

A clear shot of the bow of the boat from the water up to the top edge, not in shade, will be more helpful in identifying what you have. Most of what is in your photos are parts of the conversion*

 

Although what I'm seeing doesn't look like an ex-working boat, perhaps a copy

 

Richard

 

*if that is what it is

[alan_fincher]

Where on a CRT website is it listed as being from 1972?  I'm not aware that they usually show any date of build.

 

To me it looks like a purpose built "leisure hull", not a conversion of any kind of working boat I'm familiar with, anyway.

[You cannot be Sirius]

I'll get a full image later this afternoon. The idea of it being a copy probably sounds right. There just seems to be to many 'additions', like the diesel filling point, water filling points (one on either side of the bow) and the gas locker for it to be an old workboat conversion.

[alan_fincher]

 

And the boat listing claims it is built by "G M Engineering", (although hopefully your ST3 is capable of more that 3HP!
 

Quote

Sirius Built by G M Engineering - Length : 21.34 metres ( 70 feet ) - Beam : 2.38 metres ( 7 feet 10 inches ) - Draft : 0.61 metres ( 2 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 3 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 62760 as a Powered Motor Boat.  ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by alan_fincher

[You cannot be Sirius]

3 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Where on a CRT website is it listed as being from 1972?  I'm not aware that they usually show any date of build.

 

To me it looks like a purpose built "leisure hull", not a conversion of any kind of working boat I'm familiar with, anyway.

It is listed in the licencing details. I'm assuming that's data attached to the boat's id number?

[alan_fincher]

2 minutes ago, You cannot be Sirius said:

I'll get a full image later this afternoon. The idea of it being a copy probably sounds right. There just seems to be to many 'additions', like the diesel filling point, water filling points (one on either side of the bow) and the gas locker for it to be an old workboat conversion.

Is it welded rather than riveted construction?

Very few working boat buttys were built in welded construction.

I have just found a reference to "G M Engineering"
 

Quote

 

Black Country engineering company that diversified into sturdy, good-looking tug-style narrowboats in the late seventies/early eighties.

 

Clearly yours is not "tug style", more "butty style", but I think it is a purpose built leisure boat.

[You cannot be Sirius]

2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

 

And the boat listing claims it is built by "G M Engineering", (although hopefully your ST3 is capable of more that 3HP!
 

 

That's it. Yeah, I get a bit more than 3hp when I'm going up hill. I didn't notice the GM Engineering previously. I'll look into that now.

[Peter X]

There can't be many butties built after 1960?

The tiller arm appears to have been put into the ram's head sideways. There are good reasons why it should be pointing upwards when the boat is moored up.

[You cannot be Sirius]

1 minute ago, alan_fincher said:

Is it welded rather than riveted construction?

Very few working boat buttys were built in welded construction.

I have just found a reference to "G M Engineering"
 

Clearly yours is not "tug style", more "butty style", but I think it is a purpose built leisure boat.

Thanks Alan. Yeah, definitely welded construction. Well if the CRT date is correct, it's still older than me by a few years and I've had untold fun tinkering with the ST3 and the LH150 gearbox.

[alan_fincher]

My hunch is it is later than 1972.  There really were not that many builders of new leisure narrow boats in steel in the early 1970s, though Springer, Harborogh Marine, (and cloners thereof) as well as Rugby Boatbuilders were chucking them out in large numbers by then.

Many other firms only started mid to late 1970s, and the description I have posted of G M engineering seems to place them later than 1972.

 

If the ST engine has been in from new, I don't think it could be a 1972 build.

Edited June 8, 2018 by alan_fincher

[Paul H]

I have a half forgotten memory that this boat was built for a well known waterways personality - perhaps Dusty Miller the artist.

 

Paul

 

PS Google Sirius Narrowboat Granny Buttons and some stuff on Sirius comes up on the Granny Buttons website from about 2004.

Edited June 8, 2018 by Paul H

[You cannot be Sirius]

2 minutes ago, Peter X said:

There can't be many butties built after 1960?

The tiller arm appears to have been put into the ram's head sideways. There are good reasons why it should be pointing upwards when the boat is moored up.

This photo was from last June. The tiller is in that position because I had just passed a fallen tree that I had to cut branches from to get through. It was very helpful for balancing purposes. 

[alan_fincher]

There is another thread on the forum about "G M Enginnering", and in it our regular contributor Dave Noore says.....

 

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Hi

GM Engineering was run in Wednesbury by Bill Gregory and later by his son Tony. They were boating enthusiasts in the 60s and onward and several traditional and tug style boats were built there from the 70's to the 90s when the firm closed due to local redevelopment of the area. Tony Gregory has been a lifelong canal enthusiast (I've known him from the 60s) and owned the Josher Tench until a few years ago. At one time they collaborated with the late Chris Lloyd, a notable fitter of the time) producing shells for him to fit. The tug "Tamar No2 " was one such, I recall the tug Valiant as another. I'd describe the detailing as chunkily industrial. They were engineers first then boatbuilders.

Cheers

Dave

 

 

Tony Gregory is indeed a  very noted name in the history of historic boating, and I believe still contributes to Facebook, so it might be worth seeking him out there, if you can?
 

[You cannot be Sirius]

6 minutes ago, Paul H said:

I have a half forgotten memory that this boat was built for a well known waterways personality - perhaps Dusty Miller the artist.

 

Paul

 

PS Google Sirius Narrowboat Granny Buttons and some stuff on Sirius comes up on the Granny Buttons website from about 2004.

WOW!!! That's her! Just found the Facebook page. Amazing bit of information. Thanks Paul H.

[You cannot be Sirius]

5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

There is another thread on the forum about "G M Enginnering", and in it our regular contributor Dave Noore says.....

 

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Tony Gregory is indeed a  very noted name in the history of historic boating, and I believe still contributes to Facebook, so it might be worth seeking him out there, if you can?
 

Again, thank you Alan. I only wanted to find out a rough date of construction and now I've been put on to a path of historical discovery. I got goosebumps when I saw the Facebook page.

[Paul H]

Ok l’ve looked at Dusty Miller’s Facebook page and he is friends with Tony Gregory.  Tony refers in a posting on Dusty’s page to the memory of welding Cirrus and Nimbus together at Penkridge in 1973.  Penkridge is the home of Teddesley Boats who supplied fibreglass cabin tops in the 70s.  Could your boat have been created by welding two bow sections together?

 

So I suggest you contact these gentlemen.  Dusty Miller artist has a website and will almost certainly also be at the Braunston Boat Gathering later this month.

 

Good luck.

Paul

[Bunga bunga]

I am looking to speak to the owner of Sirius. Can anyone advise me in any way ??

[David Mack]

You could try sending him a PM on here, but since he hasn't logged in to the forum in 2 1/2 years, the chances he will reply are quite slim.

[ditchcrawler]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

You could try sending him a PM on here, but since he hasn't logged in to the forum in 2 1/2 years, the chances he will reply are quite slim.

Can a new member do that?

 

[Bunga bunga]

Thanks David. You are right I don’t think I can send PM’s Ditch. 

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Bunga bunga said:

Thanks David. You are right I don’t think I can send PM’s Ditch. 

I have sent one for you, stick around to see if he replies