New batteries

[Tony Brooks]

As you addressed me above I agree with the suggestion that the charger and probably the solar go into float too early and agree with Mike's reasons why.  All I can suggest is that once  week you disable adaptative charging and if it drops into float before you hit the 1 to 2% of battery capacity current set the float voltage to in excess of 14 volts (all if you can), but remember to reset it to the original setting once you hit the 1 to 2% or the current has stopped falling over an hour or so. Otherwise you are likely yo overcharge the batteries during the rest of the week.

 

"The Green" on a battery hydrometer is not really much good for diagnostic purposes apart from knowing they are more than about half charged. You need the numbers having allowed for the meniscus and put a decimal point after the first 1 (one). Then use the tables that are in my web notes, probably in the battery primer, and on the web to establish the state of charge. A variation of more than about 0.03 between cells suggest ons/some are developing internal shorts. The greater the difference between the state of charge suggested by the hydrometer and that inferred from  rested voltage the more sulphated the battery is.

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Then use the tables that are in my web notes, probably in the battery primer, and on the web to establish the state of charge.

 

And here is a link to Tony's website, given he is far too modest to post it himself:

 

http://tb-training.co.uk/

 

Hours of deeply informative reading for people interested in learning about how their boat works.

[Tony1]

 

You could always throw the budget out of the window and spend a squillion pounds on lithium batteries plus a management system. 

 

Yes, it may bankrupt you, but on the plus side you'll be the envy of ordinary mortals with lead acid batteries. You'll be the life and soul at parties, surrounded by crowds of admirers as you extoll the virtues of your wonderful electrics. And you can join 500-page threads on this forum that are more impenetrable than the Dead Sea scrolls.

 

But joking aside, if an annoying boater moors next to you and starts a conversation that is shaping up to be less interesting than watching paint dry, you can out-bore him. 

Simply mention your lithium batteries, and begin to evangelise about how wonderful they are. 

 

I often find that just the threat of a lecture (or a sermon, perhaps) about lithium batteries is enough to persuade the undesirable that he should leave the mooring at the earliest opportunity. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Tony1

[Richard10002]

2 hours ago, Greg & Jax said:

Thank-you for the replies .

I now realise that I should have left them awhile before connecting the solar as its now up to about 60 % with no sun . 

I've also just used a hydrometer and all sell,s are in the green . .

Need to get my head in the game re the charging etc .

Usefull link to the charging primer .

Thank-you. 

 

 

You need to buy a battery monitor. I can recommend the NASA BM1 or BM2, and the Victron BMV712. The Victron is "better", including its' Bluetooth facility, but it's more expensive.

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

You could always throw the budget out of the window and spend a squillion pounds on lithium batteries plus a management system. 

 

Yes, it may bankrupt you, but on the plus side you'll be the envy of ordinary mortals with lead acid batteries. You'll be the life and soul at parties, surrounded by crowds of admirers as you extoll the virtues of your wonderful electrics. And you can join 500-page threads on this forum that are more impenetrable than the Dead Sea scrolls.

 

But joking aside,

 

 

Oh bugger, just as I was about wheel out my favourite joke:

 

Q: How can you spot a boater in a pub who has lithium batteries?

A: You don't have to, he'll tell you as soon as you walk in.

 

Boom boom!! 

 

 

P.S. This joke works just as well if you substitute "bloke who drives an electric car" for "boater with lithium batteries".

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

 

Oh bugger, just as I was about wheel out my favourite joke:

 

Q: How can you spot a boater in a pub who has lithium batteries?

A: You don't have to, he'll tell you as soon as you walk in.

 

Boom boom!! 

 

I've managed to crowbar the subject of lithium batteries into discussions about covid, religion, and even the Nazis. 

 

I'm on a mission to turn the boating world Lithium, one boater at a time.

If I have to bore all 30,000 of them to death, that's a price I'm willing (for them) to pay. 

 

 

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I've managed to crowbar the subject of lithium batteries into discussions about covid, religion, and even the Nazis. 

 

I'm on a mission to turn the boating world Lithium, one boater at a time.

If I have to bore all 30,000 of them to death, that's a price I'm willing (for them) to pay. 

 

 

 

Ah yes, isn't that to paraphrase one of our first world war generals said something like that? "If I have to lose 10,000 troops to win this battle, it's a price I'm willing to pay", or something along those lines? But who was it?! 

 

Is there really a thread on here mentioning the Nazis? You do surprise me!!

 

[Greg & Jax]

Thank-you all.

For your input etc and pointers , I have new batteries on the way and I will now sort the battery monitor .

Thank you  Tony ,

   I do have a custom set up on my mains charger so I can set that up and  flick between the custom  and the pre sets . 

Thank-you Richard. 

I've looked at the batt monitors but got bogged down with what does what and if the blue tooth works etc . 

I looking at the nasa bm2 . .

Been aboard 18 years and only just started to get my head around this .

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Greg & Jax
Added

[Tony1]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Ah yes, isn't that to paraphrase one of our first world war generals said something like that? "If I have to lose 10,000 troops to win this battle, it's a price I'm willing to pay", or something along those lines? But who was it?! 

 

Is there really a thread on here mentioning the Nazis? You do surprise me!!

 

 

Ah, I fear I may have misled my good sir with my lack of precise language. When I said that I can crowbar lithium batteries into any any discussion, I meant those discussions that you have face to face, with other boaters (or victims, as I think is fairer in my case). 

 

Unfortunately the members on this forum are, by and large, far too wily to be conned into a lithium battery discussion. 

 

Civilians on the towpath are similarly unrewarding, and cannot by any means be tempted to engage in discussions about lithium anything.

They only want to know about working locks, about whether (and how) you actually 'live in that thing', and of course whether it gets cold in the winter. Lithium leaves them cold, and I have given up trying. 

 

Boaters, however, have an inherent weakness that makes them easy prey. They are always on the lookout for a good gadget, or an interesting upgrade to their boat systems, and half an hour of my snake-oil patter about lithiums has left many innocent boaters convinced that they simply must have lithium batteries in their lives.

 

Even our dear and level-headed veteran Mr Haggis almost fell prey to my quasi-religious patter when he made the fatal mistake of carrying on talking to me after the word 'lithium' had been thrown into the conversation. He was saved by the ever-vigilant Mrs Haggis, who was having none of it. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Tony1

[Tony Brooks]

39 minutes ago, Greg & Jax said:

Thank-you all.

For your input etc and pointers , I have new batteries on the way and I will now sort the battery monitor .

Thank you  Tony ,

   I do have a custom set up on my mains charger so I can set that up and  flick between the custom  and the pre sets . 

Thank-you Richard. 

I've looked at the batt monitors but got bogged down with what does what and if the blue tooth works etc . 

I looking at the nasa bm2 . .

Been aboard 18 years and only just started to get my head around this .

 

 

 

 

 

All those Richard10002  mentioned will do a very similar job and have similar drawbacks. They will all accurately show amps (both in and out), volts, and Amp hours out. They will all purport to show % charge and such like but this is usually not accurate and suffer ever larger errors that overstate the state of charge, especially if not properly set up and fitted straight out f the box and in the hands of someone who never reads and understands the manual. This is all covered in that battery charging primer I think.

 

At least once a week engine charge until you get between 1 & 2% charge of battery capacity or the current has failed to drop over an hour or so and then tell it to recalibrate itself. It will then be tolerably accurate for  a week or so. Use the rested voltage with no current draw (say during the mid night tramp so solar is not cocking the reading up) to infer state of charge.

 

If you want a simple system that is easy to fit then it is the Smartguage BUT it is not accurate during charge but sorts itself out quickly once charging stops a glance after drawing some water etc. with no solar input will give a good indication of the % charged.

[Greg & Jax]

Thankyou all .

For taking the time to explain and point me in the right direction to sorting out the needs etc of my batteries. 

And for the links to wotever  and Tony,s  very helpful 👍. 

[Richard10002]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If you want a simple system that is easy to fit then it is the Smartguage BUT it is not accurate during charge but sorts itself out quickly once charging stops a glance after drawing some water etc. with no solar input will give a good indication of the % charged.

 

With respect

 

Given that the goal is to know when fully charged, I don't see how a Smartgauge can be remotely useful. It shows 100% when charging, but long before fully charged, so quite deceptive.

 

For me, with hindsight, it's only use is to have a reasonable stab at actual capacity, when you have an Amp Hour counter as well. 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

With respect

 

Given that the goal is to know when fully charged, I don't see how a Smartgauge can be remotely useful. It shows 100% when charging, but long before fully charged, so quite deceptive.

 

Smartgauge would be far more useful and credible it the SoC display went blank during charging. Or said something other than an incorrect SoC. 

 

This would at least prompt purchasers to enquire why, and this would lead to better understanding than the little sentence hidden deep away in the manual on page 20 explaining. 

[cuthound]

14 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

At least once a week engine charge until you get between 1 & 2% charge of battery capacity or the current has failed to drop over an hour or so and then tell it to recalibrate itself. It will then be tolerably accurate for  a week or so. Use the rested voltage with no current draw (say during the mid night tramp so solar is not cocking the reading up) to infer state of charge.

 

In addition to the above, if you want your battery monitors percentage readout to be fairly accurate, you will need to establish the actual battery capacity 2 or 3 times a year and enter this into the battery monitor.

 

The easiest way to do this (without a separate Smartgauge) is to connect a steady load such as lights, equal to about 1/20th of the battery original capacity, to the fully charged battery and monitor the battery voltage. When the battery voltage drops to about 12.4 volts the battery will be about 75% charged. See how many ampere hours have been discharged according to the battery monitor, multiply by 4 to give the approximate actual capacity and enter that into the battery monitor.

[Alan de Enfield]

15 minutes ago, cuthound said:

The easiest way to do this (without a separate Smartgauge) is to connect a steady load such as lights, equal to about 1/20th of the battery original capacity, to the fully charged battery and monitor the battery voltage. When the battery voltage drops to about 12.4 volts the battery will be about 75% charged. See how many ampere hours have been discharged according to the battery monitor, multiply by 4 to give the approximate actual capacity and enter that into the battery monitor

 

 

Just a small addendum to this :

 

The voltage will under-read whilst under load, so, when it indicates 12.4 volts, switch off the 'load' and wait a couple of minutes, the voltmeter will (probably) now read 12.5 volts.

Switch the load back on for a short while, switch off and re-check the voltage.

 

Repeat, repeat, repeat until the voltage 'at rest and with no load' shows 12.4 volts

[blackrose]

On 10/06/2018 at 08:00, Tony Brooks said:

One much advertised supplier of sealed AGMs demands about 14.7. Anyway since mny/most battery manufacturer changed to lead ca;cium plates the gassing voltage is now much higher, typically quoted as 14.8.

 

Can,t you adjust the charger. A lower voltage (say 14.4) will nt hurt a start batter but it would address your concerns.

 

Never saw this post a few years ago Tony.

 

I could have reduced my charger output to 14.4v but that wouldn't have been ideal for my domestic batteries (open wet lead-acid Trojans) which are charged from the same unit. I can't adjust voltage separately for each output terminal on my charger.

 

Anyway, that "new" start battery is still fine.

Edited December 31, 2021 by blackrose

[cuthound]

7 hours ago, blackrose said:

 

Never saw this post a few years ago Tony.

 

I could have reduced my charger output to 14.4v but that wouldn't have been ideal for my domestic batteries (open wet lead-acid Trojans) which are charged from the same unit. I can't adjust voltage separately for each output terminal on my charger.

 

Anyway, that "new" start battery is still fine.

 

That is why I used the words "about" and "approximate". It will be near enough to set the actual capacity in the battery monitor, especially if you have to pick a set value from a list of options.

[Greg & Jax]

Hi all .

Just wanted to tidy this thread  up a little .

We have ordered 3 exide et1300 180 ah equipment batteries. From tayna ( after having a measure up this size is all I can fit ) .

Also a nasa bm2 batt monitor .

Doffs ones cap to the kind folk for the help and advice .

Thankyou .

 

[Tracy D'arth]

14 minutes ago, Greg & Jax said:

Hi all .

Just wanted to tidy this thread  up a little .

We have ordered 3 exide et1300 180 ah equipment batteries. From tayna ( after having a measure up this size is all I can fit ) .

Also a nasa bm2 batt monitor .

Doffs ones cap to the kind folk for the help and advice .

Thankyou .

 

Get the old ones into a scrap yard to get your new battery discount, scrap lead prices are high at present.

[Greg & Jax]

Thankyou for the info re scrap batteries 👍

We got £47 for the old one,s 

Thankyou .