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Fire on Ariel


johnmck

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4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

So, basically, if the fire is between you and the front doors, you are dead !!

 

You missed post 41 where I stated that the rear doors are always open when we are onboard.

 

But don't let the facts get between you and anticipation of my fiery demise.?

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On 29/04/2019 at 13:02, Mike Tee said:

So do I - the hint is in the name 'extinguisher'.

Or should it be labelled 'Fire Retardant device to allow you to exit your home and watch it burn'?

Common sense has to play a part - if its a raging inferno, sod the 'Extinguisher', just get out - anything else is a judgement call.

Nope.  Get out, get the wife and the kid(s)/dog(s)/cat(s) out.  Then you weigh up if you can put the fire out without killing yourself.

On 29/04/2019 at 23:56, dmr said:

I can't envisage many situations where you escape past a fire using an extinguisher, if its that bad I would make a dash and risk some burns rather than fighting the fire.

[...]

We keep one by each door (plus several more) so we could have a go at fighting a fire after leaving the boat, but that's not a likely situation.

Yep.  Get off the boat and then think.  Do not piss about inside an enclosed space full of smoke and getting hotter!  My only disagreement is the thing about running past without fighting the fire ... use the easily grabbable extinguisher on your way past the hot bit! If all you do is bank the flames, it saves weeks in the burns unit ...

 

13 hours ago, Mike Tee said:

What you should have done, according to some on here, is got out of the boat as quickly as possible, and stand on the bank waiting for the firemen to find your boat. You wouldn't have been cold though, the burning boat would have kept you warm.

You are either deliberately being awkward, or have never had to fight a fire in an enclosed space that contains your wife/children/dog/cat.  I neither know nor care which, your advice is wrong. 

 

Get off the damn boat, get everyone/everything that matters off the damn boat, and then consider if you can extinguish the fire with your available resources.

 

For what it is worth, I have five small dry powder extinguishers onboard to meet BSS A/B scores.  I also have two different types of extinguisher onboard that would fail the BSS on their own, but are the first ones I would grab in a real fire situation!

Edited by TheBiscuits
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‘The Biscuit’ said

 

After a sarky comment on another thread, I felt obliged to resuscitate this one ...

 

The fire extinguishers on a boat are there for one reason only - so the people can get off the burning boat!  That's it, end of!

 

I was so sorry to see Ariel burn, but the boat can be refurbished with another interesting chapter in her history.  The people are harder to replace ...

 

 

Nope.  Get out, get the wife and the kid(s)/dog(s)/cat(s) out.  Then you weigh up if you can put the fire out without killing yourself.

 

Yep.  Get off the boat and then think.  Do not piss about inside an enclosed space full of smoke and getting hotter!  My only disagreement is the thing about running past without fighting the fire ... use the easily grabbable extinguisher on your way past the hot bit! If all you do is bank the flames, it saves weeks in the burns unit ...

 

 

Get off the damn boat, get everyone/everything that matters off the damn boat, and then consider if you can extinguish the fire with your available resources.

 

 

I have not cherry picked his comments, only underlined what I find relates mainly to his criticism of my comment. The underlinings can be summed up in two words – Judgement Call. Which is exactly what I said.

My first post was in relation to his comment  ‘That's it, end of!’ I could have gone right through the scenario – 1) identify nearest clear exit 2) evacuate everybody 3) delegate call to fire services 4) identify fire source  5) evaluate risk………. It goes on, but is as I said, a judgement call which is based on the individuals training and experience. Your initial comment was advice to basically get off the boat and watch it burn. Now you are backtracking to assess actually using the extinguishers. Not quite as clear cut as your initial comment suggested is it?

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9 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

Nope.  Get out, get the wife and the kid(s)/dog(s)/cat(s) out.  Then you weigh up if you can put the fire out without killing yourself.

Yep.  Get off the boat and then think.  Do not piss about inside an enclosed space full of smoke and getting hotter!  My only disagreement is the thing about running past without fighting the fire ... use the easily grabbable extinguisher on your way past the hot bit! If all you do is bank the flames, it saves weeks in the burns unit ...

 

You are either deliberately being awkward, or have never had to fight a fire in an enclosed space that contains your wife/children/dog/cat.  I neither know nor care which, your advice is wrong. 

 

Get off the damn boat, get everyone/everything that matters off the damn boat, and then consider if you can extinguish the fire with your available resources.

 

For what it is worth, I have five small dry powder extinguishers onboard to meet BSS A/B scores.  I also have two different types of extinguisher onboard that would fail the BSS on their own, but are the first ones I would grab in a real fire situation!

A trained firefighter would never consider going into an enclosed space to fight a fire armed with a 1Kg dry powder extinguisher, 

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Having had a grand union with sealed ( as built) front bulkhead and only a set of stern doors we always had a fire plan- extinguisher next to bed, duvet to be chucked over range and out.

when we had the fire- during the day (the sun caught the lace under the bullseye ) the frightening thing was the smoke in that tiny space . I smashed open the doors from outside and fired off the engine room extinguisher.

the damage was minimal ( cabin had been refitted 3 weeks before) but the fumes and smoke from burnt lace paint and electrical cabling (the fire shorted the cables and tracked back to the battery)  was dreadful.

since then we always have a port stern and side door entrance open when on the boat.

i look at the residential bliss on the towpath with exits barricaded by junk and petrol in well decks and it makes me shudder.

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2 hours ago, Nut said:

has there ever been a discreet sprinkler system ever designed and incorporated in a narrowboat ? and if not why not ?

 

When I was working, fitting out data centres, all the latest ones had water mist systems, whereby a very fine spray of water is triggered as soon as a smoke or flame detector operates.

 

They are very effective, and cause minimal water damage because they operate at the first hint of a fire and can be used on live electrical systems up to 35 kV.

 

https://www.marioff.com

 

Although they fit these to cruise liners and off shore oil rigs, I asked the manufacturer if they might be suitable for small boats, especially if the system could be made cheaper but he wasn't interested. Apparently the market is not big enough and boat owners won't pay the price of around £10,000 for as water mist system.

Edited by cuthound
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3 hours ago, Nut said:

has there ever been a discreet sprinkler system ever designed and incorporated in a narrowboat ? and if not why not ?

They don't even fit them in schools, stately homes, churches, palaces, blocks of flats or new houses

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9 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

They don't even fit them in schools, stately homes, churches, palaces, blocks of flats or new houses

Sorry but this isn't correct.

Building Regulations require all new homes in Wales to have a sprinkler system, and the same requirements are likely to come into force in England in about a year's time.

Domestic sprinkler systems are actually quite discrete, and cost about £4000 for a large 4 bed house.

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Just now, John Brightley said:

Sorry but this isn't correct.

Building Regulations require all new homes in Wales to have a sprinkler system, and the same requirements are likely to come into force in England in about a year's time.

Domestic sprinkler systems are actually quite discrete, and cost about £4000 for a large 4 bed house.

As I don't live in Wales I didn't know that. What sort are they, a wet system with the glass (I think the word is) frangible bulb. I take it they are fed by the water main.

 

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38 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

As I don't live in Wales I didn't know that. What sort are they, a wet system with the glass (I think the word is) frangible bulb. I take it they are fed by the water main.

 

Yes, they are a wet system fed by the water main. No glass bulb. I work for one of the large housebuilders and we have just fitted our first system here in Warwickshire as a trial, so we are still learning about them too.

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I briefly investigated some of this stuff as my children are having an attic conversion building regs problem. I was quite impressed with the water mist systems. I believe some can even "see" the fire and direct the mist towards it. They are expensive but might just be viable in a boat, might need a bit of developement/customisation. Battery draw would need considering.

I suspect, with no real evidence, that its the older lower cost and poorly maintained boats that mostly catch fire so it would be many years before these got such systems, and lack of maintenance would likely be an issue.

 

.............Dave

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2 hours ago, dmr said:

I briefly investigated some of this stuff as my children are having an attic conversion building regs problem. I was quite impressed with the water mist systems. I believe some can even "see" the fire and direct the mist towards it. They are expensive but might just be viable in a boat, might need a bit of developement/customisation. Battery draw would need considering.

I suspect, with no real evidence, that its the older lower cost and poorly maintained boats that mostly catch fire so it would be many years before these got such systems, and lack of maintenance would likely be an issue.

 

.............Dave

Well our fire was in a rebuilt  re ranged re wired cabin 2 weeks post coc. The bulls eye had been replaced. A combination of intense sun and magnification set fire to the lace. So neither ill maintained nor low cost.

the incident happened in the minutes between walking off and returning to the craft having tied up during a days boating.

needless to say a paint blob was applied after i had re wired , retrimmed and repainted a cabin i had finished only a fortnight before. I never put lace up now.

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38 minutes ago, roland elsdon said:

Well our fire was in a rebuilt  re ranged re wired cabin 2 weeks post coc. The bulls eye had been replaced. A combination of intense sun and magnification set fire to the lace. So neither ill maintained nor low cost.

the incident happened in the minutes between walking off and returning to the craft having tied up during a days boating.

needless to say a paint blob was applied after i had re wired , retrimmed and repainted a cabin i had finished only a fortnight before. I never put lace up now.

I did say "mostly" older boats.

We also have a back cabin bullseye. When the sun really shines I have had a good feel of all surrounding woodwork checking for hotspots but found none. Its not just the bullseye, we have various bits of glass hanging in the portholes making nice little rainbows within the boat. Houses are lined with plaster, boats are lined with wood.

 

Roughing up the central surface of the bullseye is an alternative to paint.

 

...............Dave

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9 hours ago, dmr said:

I did say "mostly" older boats.

We also have a back cabin bullseye. When the sun really shines I have had a good feel of all surrounding woodwork checking for hotspots but found none. Its not just the bullseye, we have various bits of glass hanging in the portholes making nice little rainbows within the boat. Houses are lined with plaster, boats are lined with wood.

 

Roughing up the central surface of the bullseye is an alternative to paint.

 

...............Dave

Are many bullseyes and the rectangular versions fitted upside down to the intended way?

I heard that this causes the suns rays to be focussed more sharply inside the boat.

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On 02/05/2019 at 22:45, TheBiscuits said:

 

The problem with stand alone water mist extinguishers is they don't meet the BSS requirements.

 

They are extremely effective at putting out a small fire, but not very good at putting out an established one, which the BSS requires.

 

This is why they are mainly used as part of a smoke & flame detecting system, where the detectors sense the fire early before it has had a chance to establish itself.

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45 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

The problem with stand alone water mist extinguishers is they don't meet the BSS requirements.

 

They are extremely effective at putting out a small fire, but not very good at putting out an established one, which the BSS requires.

 

This is why they are mainly used as part of a smoke & flame detecting system, where the detectors sense the fire early before it has had a chance to establish itself.

I dont think I would say that a 1Kg Dry Powder is good for putting out an established fire, plus there is no reason why you cant have water mist in addition to the DP ones.  I would suggest that watermist would be much more effective on sat the lining catching fire around the stove than blowing DP at it. If you are serious about fire control on a boat then the BSS is less than the minimum requirement IMO

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On 03/05/2019 at 09:22, Boater Sam said:

Are many bullseyes and the rectangular versions fitted upside down to the intended way?

I heard that this causes the suns rays to be focussed more sharply inside the boat.

Indeed. We followed history and installed it flat face  to the outside. Big error...

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4 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

The problem with stand alone water mist extinguishers is they don't meet the BSS requirements.

 I'm quite surprised by the low ratings of water mist extinguishers.

A 6 litre water mist has the same "A" rating as a 6 litre water extinguisher. I know which one I'd rather have!

 

An "off the wall" thought : If there was an extinguisher which was switchable between, say, CO2 (no "A" rating) and water (no"B" rating), such a device could be made to be BSS compliant (min. 5A, 34B). What is the practical difference between that and two extinguishers of different types at the same location?

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18 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

 I'm quite surprised by the low ratings of water mist extinguishers.

A 6 litre water mist has the same "A" rating as a 6 litre water extinguisher. I know which one I'd rather have!

 

An "off the wall" thought : If there was an extinguisher which was switchable between, say, CO2 (no "A" rating) and water (no"B" rating), such a device could be made to be BSS compliant (min. 5A, 34B). What is the practical difference between that and two extinguishers of different types at the same location?

 

The A rating is determined by how quickly a fire extinguisher outs out standard sized a pile of burning wood.

 

Water mist extinguishers perform poorly on this test, but as I said earlier the advantage of a water mist system (rather than stand alone extinguisher) is that the pile of wood wouldn't have progressed to burning fiercly in the first place because the smoke and flame detectors would have triggered the water mist as soon as the fire started.

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